epic grade inflation

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Unitas
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby Unitas » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:34 pm

I just found out the school-wide average GPA at my school is 2.80 and my major "economics" average GPA is 2.58...

I asked one of my professors about it and he replied that yea that sounds about right. I should've been shocked, but I knew the majority of students get a C in any class. About 50% in each class I have been in get a C.

charlesjd
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby charlesjd » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:46 pm

A 3.0 is the 50th at my school.... 3.2ish is 70th... hahahahahha... going here is not walk in the park, especially when schools are trying to raise their rankings and standards.

pattymac
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby pattymac » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:50 pm

Wow this is awesome news. Curves at a B+? Sweeet, my school curves hard at a C. Class of 180, 3 kids on the Dean's list.

Flanker1067
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby Flanker1067 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:10 pm

This whole thread is just pointing out the futility that law schools face when trying to evaluate candidates based on their GPA's. The LSAC has found that there is a much stronger correlation between LSAT performance and law school performance then UGPA and the latter. Hence, why the LSAT feels like the much more important of the two in the admissions process.

BenJ
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby BenJ » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:23 pm

Borhas wrote:
GargamelITT wrote:I have about a 3.7 from my UG. on my LSDAS report it says this GPA is 56th percentile for my school. I didn't realize the grade inflation was that bad here - to what extent is that going to cheapen my GPA in the eyes of adcomms? will they still look at it as a legit 3.7, or have a tendency to laugh it off?


my 3.31 is at 56% too, and I thought my school had serious grade inflation

Black-Blue wrote:
grrrstick wrote:http://gradeinflation.com/

Average is about 3.5 at Yale and Harvard. Pretty absurd.

No not absurd. A 3.5 at Yale and Harvard would have 10 LSAT points higher on average than a 3.8 in some low tier state school. Yet, law school seems that the 3.5 is inferior even though it's harder to get that 3.5.

If anything, top UGs are grade deflated, using LSAT as adjuster.

LSAC needs to have a school adjustment factor for GPA.


that's just not a convincing argument...

I mean where do you even get 10 pt higher LSAT thing. (you mean LSAT mean I presume)

I highly doubt classes are grade harder at any of the Ivies... BUT schools like MIT and Cal Tech... there is probably actual grade deflation


He's not totally wrong about the LSAT. The median LSAT score for all undergrads is available. Harvard is at the top with a 166 median, followed by Yale and Princeton, etc. The top LA colleges (Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Wellesley) are all near the top as well. The jump even down to number ten is a gap of something around five points, so the gap between Harvard and a mediocre non-flagship state school might well be as much as fifteen points or more.

I'm not sure it justifies his conclusions, though.

Anyway, private school with a median of 3.39 here.

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whitman
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby whitman » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:44 pm

I was at 70% with a 3.49 at my school. Median GPA was a 3.2. Sounds like some had it better, some had it worse.

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:51 pm

why does the curve matter if you get all the questions right on the tests? I mean if you get everything right on the test you will get A's even if they curve to a F right? Especially for science majors where you can absolutely get 100 out of 100 on tests.

legallybound
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby legallybound » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:52 pm

hoopsguy6 wrote:This thread is full of stupid.

+1

Note- Grade Inflation means the gradually rising of the GPA at a particular school. It doesn't refer to a 3.5 at Harvard and a 3.0 at UMass.

On a personal note, I met several people from Yale during a summer internship and the subject of grades/class difficulty did come up. I was telling them that economics classes were the hardest classes at my school. Intro Macro/Micro had 2.5-2.7 GPAs while the Intermediate Theory classes were closer to a 2.0. These were classes required for all economics majors and minors. They were shocked. And from my perspective it was ridiculous. But I imagine the testing style will be good preparation for law school (i.e. lets learn several models and work through some problems in class. On the exam, the professors changes the model and the student must reach new conclusions. Lots of fun.)

Regardless, Grade Inflation conversations are ridiculous and the arguments never end. But that's what you get with a group of lawyers--people arguing over minutiae, using flawed data to extrapolate conclusions that piss people off, then restart the cycle.

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tomhobbes
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby tomhobbes » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:55 pm

r6_philly wrote:why does the curve matter if you get all the questions right on the tests? I mean if you get everything right on the test you will get A's even if they curve to a F right? Especially for science majors where you can absolutely get 100 out of 100 on tests.


So your solution to the problem of harsh curves is just to be smarter than everyone else. I wonder why more people don't do this.

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:10 pm

tomhobbes wrote:
r6_philly wrote:why does the curve matter if you get all the questions right on the tests? I mean if you get everything right on the test you will get A's even if they curve to a F right? Especially for science majors where you can absolutely get 100 out of 100 on tests.


So your solution to the problem of harsh curves is just to be smarter than everyone else. I wonder why more people don't do this.


At my school with a median GPA of 3.4, being smarter will make you more efficient, but everyone who isn't super smart can have a chance at A's if they put in some hard work (I will concede that it would take quite a bit more than the smarter students). But here many kids just do the minimum work necessary to get a C and move on to graduate.

I am a computer science major. Most of the classes in the major involves learning skills, techniques and completing projects. We have a C average in the major. One of the hardest course in the major involves doing 12-15 homework programming assignments. Most people don't submit all the assignments. People approach me for help but are only interested in getting (and probably copying my code). I ask them to go to the Professors for help and they don't.

How about the fact that every test was reviewed ahead of time along with topic sheets and answers?

I think the GPA could be a 3.6+ in major if they all tried. In reality it is much lower than the 3.4 (Thats across the university)

09042014
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:31 am

r6_philly wrote:
tomhobbes wrote:
r6_philly wrote:why does the curve matter if you get all the questions right on the tests? I mean if you get everything right on the test you will get A's even if they curve to a F right? Especially for science majors where you can absolutely get 100 out of 100 on tests.


So your solution to the problem of harsh curves is just to be smarter than everyone else. I wonder why more people don't do this.


At my school with a median GPA of 3.4, being smarter will make you more efficient, but everyone who isn't super smart can have a chance at A's if they put in some hard work (I will concede that it would take quite a bit more than the smarter students). But here many kids just do the minimum work necessary to get a C and move on to graduate.

I am a computer science major. Most of the classes in the major involves learning skills, techniques and completing projects. We have a C average in the major. One of the hardest course in the major involves doing 12-15 homework programming assignments. Most people don't submit all the assignments. People approach me for help but are only interested in getting (and probably copying my code). I ask them to go to the Professors for help and they don't.

How about the fact that every test was reviewed ahead of time along with topic sheets and answers?

I think the GPA could be a 3.6+ in major if they all tried. In reality it is much lower than the 3.4 (Thats across the university)


What kind of CS program doesn't curve?

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chango
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby chango » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:43 am

ArmyVet07 wrote:I wonder whether adcomms consider grade inflation when evaluating grades from 10 or more years ago.



This strikes me as a VERY good question. I only skimmed the thread: has anyone answered it?

Image

Image


http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2005/06/input_substitut.html

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chango
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby chango » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:58 am

Also, this is intriguing:

--LinkRemoved--

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
What kind of CS program doesn't curve?



I missed 1 point ever in all requirements. I don't know know what they do because it never impacts me, unless i end up with a 4.5 then i will know :lol:

Actually I may find out soon as I am close to landing a faculty position teaching lower division CS classes. I guess I will have to curve... I'd much rather offer extra credit assignments.

My view, at least in CS, is that no curve should be present. If you get C's on core theory courses you are going to be a lousy programmer making faulty software. You need to at least be "superior" which is B+. Call me an elitest but how can anyone be certified to have graduated from a CS program without grasping some of the fundamental concepts necessary?

BarCliff
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby BarCliff » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:39 pm

To anyone arguing that there's no such thing as grade inflation at top universities: you're wrong. Look at top engineering schools. The average engineering GPA at my school (it's a top 3 public engineering) is right around 3.0. A 3.5 would put someone in the top 10% of their class. Yet, when it comes to law school admissions, that stellar GPA is a detriment. Despite all the hard work such GPA requires - way harder than any Ivy degree I'd wager - engineers are lumped into the bottom of the bucket simply due to the fact that their institutions don't hand out high grades like candy.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

09042014
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:16 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
What kind of CS program doesn't curve?



I missed 1 point ever in all requirements. I don't know know what they do because it never impacts me, unless i end up with a 4.5 then i will know :lol:

Actually I may find out soon as I am close to landing a faculty position teaching lower division CS classes. I guess I will have to curve... I'd much rather offer extra credit assignments.

My view, at least in CS, is that no curve should be present. If you get C's on core theory courses you are going to be a lousy programmer making faulty software. You need to at least be "superior" which is B+. Call me an elitest but how can anyone be certified to have graduated from a CS program without grasping some of the fundamental concepts necessary?


Either you are a genius or your CS program was shit. Giving a test where people get 100% is a sign of a bad test. I took CS courses at one of the best CS universities in the world and it would be near impossible to only miss one point. If you can, you aren't being properly challenged.

If you actually went to a reputable university that is extremely impressive.

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:04 pm

I pm'ed you.

I still believe if someone wants to earn a A, they should be able to earn an A. Maybe it takes 10 hours per week of studying but you can earn a A. I show you a 4.0 CS GPA then you question my university, so I guess there is no winning :) Even if I can convince you that I could earn a 4.0 at MIT or CMU you would probably just call me a genius (which would be nice :) ) so I guess I will just leave this thought: some people can earn 4.0's no matter what, and many others benefit from grade inflation. 8)

add: I am confident that I can earn a 4.0 at ANY CS institution. I have nothing to back this up, but my track records would suggest that the probability is good that I can back that up. It is a shame that life crushed me years ago so I couldn't attend MIT or any other good universities, and I have no desire to be only a computer scientist, then or now.
Last edited by r6_philly on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Derrex
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby Derrex » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:I pm'ed you.

I still believe if someone wants to earn a A, they should be able to earn an A. Maybe it takes 10 hours per week of studying but you can earn a A. I show you a 4.0 CS GPA then you question my university, so I guess there is no winning :) Even if I can convince you that I could earn a 4.0 at MIT or CMU you would probably just call me a genius (which would be nice :) ) so I guess I will just leave this thought: some people can earn 4.0's no matter what, and many others benefit from grade inflation. 8)

add: I am confident that I can earn a 4.0 at ANY CS institution. I have nothing to back this up, but my track records would suggest that the probability is good that I can back that up. It is a shame that life crushed me years ago so I couldn't attend MIT or any other good universities, and I have no desire to be a computer scientist, then or now.



You can always earn in A. Its just that in general, the percent correct needed to score an A is not 90%+. For instance, I got an A in math with a score for 50% because the class average was around 25%. In general, desert fox is correct, getting 100% on tests consistently in a technical major either means you are a genius, or your department doesn't know how to make tests.

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:27 pm

Derrex wrote:
You can always earn in A. Its just that in general, the percent correct needed to score an A is not 90%+. For instance, I got an A in math with a score for 50% because the class average was around 25%. In general, desert fox is correct, getting 100% on tests consistently in a technical major either means you are a genius, or your department doesn't know how to make tests.


I am going to go with the former if I have to choose one. The only way you can give me a test that I can't answer correctly is if you cover material that I was not supposed to learn (outside of the scope of the class, text, and course). So explain to me how a great department can make a test that no one can get a 100% on. (in CS).

Well I can think that you can cram 5 hours worth of work into a 2 hour exam but... I hope that's not what you mean.

09042014
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:31 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Derrex wrote:
You can always earn in A. Its just that in general, the percent correct needed to score an A is not 90%+. For instance, I got an A in math with a score for 50% because the class average was around 25%. In general, desert fox is correct, getting 100% on tests consistently in a technical major either means you are a genius, or your department doesn't know how to make tests.


I am going to go with the former if I have to choose one. The only way you can give me a test that I can't answer correctly is if you cover material that I was not supposed to learn (outside of the scope of the class, text, and course). So explain to me how a great department can make a test that no one can get a 100% on. (in CS).

Well I can think that you can cram 5 hours worth of work into a 2 hour exam but... I hope that's not what you mean.


By combining things you learned in new ways that you didn't study. In most EE classes I had nobody got 100 on a test. Making really hard tests is a way to separate the good students from the bad. Most tests I took required you to know the material very well to even get a 20 percent.

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:34 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
By combining things you learned in new ways that you didn't study. In most EE classes I had nobody got 100 on a test. Making really hard tests is a way to separate the good students from the bad. Most tests I took required you to know the material very well to even get a 20 percent.


I have made a name for myself doing that in my career. So maybe I am just good at thinking outside of the box and coming up with new solutions. That's actually the ONLY thing I enjoy about CS, to solve problems without previously learning the tactic to solve it. yes I am a true geek I know.

Ok I should add that my in a course last semester we were given some extra credit assignments, no one solved more than 1 and I solved ALL of them (6+ I think). I think the tests are sufficiently hard enough, I just think that if others spent more time and take interest like I do, they should have a good shot at doing just well? maybe I am wrong? maybe I expect too much out of students?
Last edited by r6_philly on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:36 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
By combining things you learned in new ways that you didn't study. In most EE classes I had nobody got 100 on a test. Making really hard tests is a way to separate the good students from the bad. Most tests I took required you to know the material very well to even get a 20 percent.


I have made a name for myself doing that in my career. So maybe I am just good at thinking outside of the box and coming up with new solutions. That's actually the ONLY thing I enjoy about CS, to solve problems without previously learning the tactic to solve it. yes I am a true geek I know.


Yea if you are good at problem solving and know the material well those problems aren't too bad. I was decent at the problem solving but not with studying all the material.

r6_philly
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby r6_philly » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Yea if you are good at problem solving and know the material well those problems aren't too bad. I was decent at the problem solving but not with studying all the material.


That's what I meant, it is not impossible to get 100%, it just takes extraordinary effort which most students don't put forth.

Grade inflation is for them, not me! :lol:

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nick637
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby nick637 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:40 pm

can anyone tell me why i have an "insf" for the percentile rank and GPA college mean?

tumbleweed664
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Re: epic grade inflation

Postby tumbleweed664 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:41 pm

The average GPA at my undergrad is a 3.1 and the average LSAT is a 161.

Boo!




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