Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

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kurama20
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby kurama20 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:46 am

Rocketman11 wrote:
The fact that you had to reach back to 2003 to find something to support your argument speaks volumes. I have no doubt that when it comes to shitty little positions in the south, yeah there is prejudice in there. I will clarify my point that in large/major corporations (e.g. most things not mom and pop), URM status is beneficial.


Did you really just use "way back in 2003" to support your statement about race relations? And the bolded is patently false on almost every level---particularly in high level managerial positions.

jin
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby jin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:35 am

The most of ppl in my University are white, and I just came back from an University event. When I was talking to them, their eyes were saying: "I am superior than you, and you need to be controled because of your color." They made fun of my culture and ppl. They insulted me with bad jokes. There were "Christians" and educated professors too.


Is it wrong to be an Asian in this country? I came from a non-White and non-English country, is it so hard for me to involve in this pop culture? :( This country makes me sad.

Why no one cares or helps a person try to pursue her/ his dream in this country. Is it makes them unfortune if I become successful. Should I be a servant instead? :|
Last edited by jin on Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Iuvo
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby Iuvo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:41 am

jin wrote:
hyunseoki wrote:What a shame... us Asians are supposed to be smart...
The most of ppl in my University are white, and I just came back from an University event. When I was talking to them, their eyes were saying: "I am superior than you, and you need to be controled because of your color." They made fun of my culture and ppl. They insulted me with bad jokes. There were "Christians" and educated professors too.


Is it wrong to be an Asian in this country? I came from a non-White and non-English country, is it so hard for me to involve in this pop culture? :( This country makes me said.


Sorry for being exempted from the Asian stereotypes. I guess I am an average Asian. :(

Hey bro, take a year or two off to read/learn English, maybe go on for a master's degree in something. The GRE is far easier than the LSATs. Then take the LSATs when your English is best and you have a solid chance.

I get discriminated the same way and I am half Asian and grew up in a developing Asian country. I scored a 173 on the LSATs through 95% hard work. We are just as American as they are. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. This country is just as much ours as it is theirs.
Last edited by Iuvo on Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:43 am

jin wrote:The most of ppl in my University are white, and I just came back from an University event. When I was talking to them, their eyes were saying: "I am superior than you, and you need to be controled because of your color." They made fun of my culture and ppl. They insulted me with bad jokes. There were "Christians" and educated professors too.


Is it wrong to be an Asian in this country? I came from a non-White and non-English country, is it so hard for me to involve in this pop culture? :( This country makes me said.

Why no one cares or helps a person try to pursue her/ his dream in this country. Is it makes them unfortune if I become successful. Should I be a servant instead? :|


i think you being a flame is already pretty obvious. you dont have to keep working so hard at it.

also, you must admit, the longer the thread goes on, the worse your english seems to get (and your knowledge of American culture for that matter)
Last edited by DoubleChecks on Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

jin
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby jin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:43 am

Iuvo wrote:
jin wrote:
hyunseoki wrote:What a shame... us Asians are supposed to be smart...


Sorry for being exempted from the Asian stereotypes. I guess I am an average Asian. :(

Hey bro, take a year or two off to read/learn English, maybe go on for a master's degree in something. The GRE is far easier than the LSATs. Then take the LSATs when your English is best and you have a solid chance.

Don't give up.


Thanks, I seriously thought about taking GRE.

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby jin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:49 am

Iuvo wrote:
jin wrote:
hyunseoki wrote:What a shame... us Asians are supposed to be

Sorry for being exempted from the Asian stereotypes. I guess I am an average Asian. :(


I get discriminated the same way and I am half Asian and grew up in a developing Asian country. I scored a 173 on the LSATs through 95% hard work. We are just as American as they are. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. This country is just as much ours as it is theirs.


Thank you. I will study my ass off and be successful. I guess it is the only way I can change my status quo.

Derrex
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby Derrex » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:57 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
just me or do asians sound like they get shafted in this on both ends...maybe not those specific things listed, but how many ppl have asian bosses (not in engineering or the health fields) or know of an asian american dean? not that many at all...lol


Not that I know the truth of this, but there is a possible logical flaw when you consider the percentage of people in this country that are asian.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:02 am

Derrex wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
just me or do asians sound like they get shafted in this on both ends...maybe not those specific things listed, but how many ppl have asian bosses (not in engineering or the health fields) or know of an asian american dean? not that many at all...lol


Not that I know the truth of this, but there is a possible logical flaw when you consider the percentage of people in this country that are asian.


sry, loaded question - statistically, asian americans in higher education (and i dont mean an asian who came over from china recently to teach foreign languages), especially in administrative positions, is ridiculously low (at least a few yrs ago this was the case)...much lower than 4%

holy shit, i just said the word 'statistically' on TLS and didnt cite/link a reference...im about to be wrecked lol

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Iuvo
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby Iuvo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:04 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
Derrex wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
just me or do asians sound like they get shafted in this on both ends...maybe not those specific things listed, but how many ppl have asian bosses (not in engineering or the health fields) or know of an asian american dean? not that many at all...lol


Not that I know the truth of this, but there is a possible logical flaw when you consider the percentage of people in this country that are asian.


sry, loaded question - statistically, asian americans in higher education (and i dont mean an asian who came over from china recently to teach foreign languages), especially in administrative positions, is ridiculously low (at least a few yrs ago this was the case)...much lower than 4%

holy shit, i just said the word 'statistically' on TLS and didnt cite/link a reference...im about to be wrecked lol

It doesn't matter. The point is that the admissions system is deeply flawed. To put all Asians in one category is asinine.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:06 am

Iuvo wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Derrex wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
just me or do asians sound like they get shafted in this on both ends...maybe not those specific things listed, but how many ppl have asian bosses (not in engineering or the health fields) or know of an asian american dean? not that many at all...lol


Not that I know the truth of this, but there is a possible logical flaw when you consider the percentage of people in this country that are asian.


sry, loaded question - statistically, asian americans in higher education (and i dont mean an asian who came over from china recently to teach foreign languages), especially in administrative positions, is ridiculously low (at least a few yrs ago this was the case)...much lower than 4%

holy shit, i just said the word 'statistically' on TLS and didnt cite/link a reference...im about to be wrecked lol

It doesn't matter. The point is that the admissions system is deeply flawed. To put all Asians in one category is asinine.


though im not sure if you're directly commenting on anything i said, +1 to your comment lol

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby Derrex » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:07 am

Rocketman11 wrote: I will clarify my point that in large/major corporations (e.g. most things not mom and pop), URM status is beneficial.


URM status may be beneficial when all else is equal, but the real question is is everything equal? One complaint among many is that when a black person and a white person turn in the same work, they don't get the same amount of credit simply based on perceptions about color or race. Also consider conceptions about asians, whites, blacks, and hispanics and think whether these conceptions can be more hurtful than any URM bump.

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby Derrex » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:10 am

jin wrote:
Iuvo wrote:
jin wrote:
hyunseoki wrote:What a shame... us Asians are supposed to be

Sorry for being exempted from the Asian stereotypes. I guess I am an average Asian. :(


I get discriminated the same way and I am half Asian and grew up in a developing Asian country. I scored a 173 on the LSATs through 95% hard work. We are just as American as they are. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. This country is just as much ours as it is theirs.


Thank you. I will study my ass off and be successful. I guess it is the only way I can change my status quo.


Ironically, you are enforcing the status quo if commit to studying because thats what asians do and in part why we do not receive a URM bump.

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Iuvo
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby Iuvo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:15 am

Derrex wrote:Ironically, you are enforcing the status quo if commit to studying because thats what asians do and in part why we do not receive a URM bump.

:roll: Studying isn't Asian, just like speaking proper English isn't white. The only person enforcing the status quo is you here, by pointing it out.

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:16 am

haha have to love that vicious cycle:

asians are discriminated against, so work hard in education to make up for it, but because they work hard and seem like the typical "asian student" and already succeed academically, they are discriminated against, so then they work hard in education...

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby jin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:32 am

DoubleChecks wrote:haha have to love that vicious cycle:

asians are discriminated against, so work hard in education to make up for it, but because they work hard and seem like the typical "asian student" and already succeed academically, they are discriminated against, so then they work hard in education...


Good logic. Way to be a lawyer.

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M51
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby M51 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:39 am

Derrex wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
just me or do asians sound like they get shafted in this on both ends...maybe not those specific things listed, but how many ppl have asian bosses (not in engineering or the health fields) or know of an asian american dean? not that many at all...lol


Not that I know the truth of this, but there is a possible logical flaw when you consider the percentage of people in this country that are asian.


Well, small sample size sure, but even more than that:
Consider. A large % of Asians in this country do not have good English skills (either being immigrants, or being born in a non-english proficient environment). Another large % of Asians in this country do not have good social skills (not just an empty stereotype, look at any high school w/ a sizable Asian population). On top of that, a large % of Asians self-select into Engineering/Medicine (stats for this are somewhere). You really end up with a much smaller sample size than even the 5% population% that gets cited so often. I'm not saying there's no glass ceiling, but it's exaggerated.

Also, as far as education goes, positive stereotypes don't have the same psych effects as negative ones. Whatever other types of discrimination (subtle and otherwise) exist, positive re-enforcement generally, on average, works to the advantage of Asian children academically. And did I mention that we're not URM but ORM? CLS's entering class has something like 21% Asians (+ 10% international JDs, a large % of whom are also Asian), partially due to the strong Cali connection, partially self-selection. Most other top law schools are still at least 10%+.

Just be happy law schools aren't giving us the UG treatment (soft quota caps at top schools)... yet.

Also, OP is obviously a flame. Let's keep ignoring him.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:01 am

M51 wrote:
Derrex wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
just me or do asians sound like they get shafted in this on both ends...maybe not those specific things listed, but how many ppl have asian bosses (not in engineering or the health fields) or know of an asian american dean? not that many at all...lol


Not that I know the truth of this, but there is a possible logical flaw when you consider the percentage of people in this country that are asian.


Well, small sample size sure, but even more than that:
Consider. A large % of Asians in this country do not have good English skills (either being immigrants, or being born in a non-english proficient environment). Another large % of Asians in this country do not have good social skills (not just an empty stereotype, look at any high school w/ a sizable Asian population). On top of that, a large % of Asians self-select into Engineering/Medicine (stats for this are somewhere). You really end up with a much smaller sample size than even the 5% population% that gets cited so often. I'm not saying there's no glass ceiling, but it's exaggerated.

Also, as far as education goes, positive stereotypes don't have the same psych effects as negative ones. Whatever other types of discrimination (subtle and otherwise) exist, positive re-enforcement generally, on average, works to the advantage of Asian children academically. And did I mention that we're not URM but ORM? CLS's entering class has something like 21% Asians (+ 10% international JDs, a large % of whom are also Asian), partially due to the strong Cali connection, partially self-selection. Most other top law schools are still at least 10%+.

Just be happy law schools aren't giving us the UG treatment (soft quota caps at top schools)... yet.

Also, OP is obviously a flame. Let's keep ignoring him.


sure, but if you only focus on the glass ceiling, you forget about the overall discrimination. why do asians choose math/science/engineering fields? there's less discrimination there -- that and language mastery isnt as fundamentally important as it is in other fields. ive always been a proponent of the relative functionalist theory: asian americans strive to do well in education because other non-academic routes have been closed off to them. even a lot of manual labor occupations were shut off in the early 1960s due to labor union discrimination. all that was left required advanced degrees (im exaggerating a bit). asian americans dont have a hard time getting a job, it's getting the promotions to managerial positions that difficult. studies looking at census data show that asian americans, while having a higher family median income AND a higher individual median income (nowadays), do not actually earn as much as their white counterparts when factors such as hours worked, educational attainment, etc. are taken into account. less bang for your buck in a sense.

on the note of the whole model minority stereotype helping asians work harder in school...iunno, thats debatable. im more concerned w/ the fact that it masks the NEED for asians that DO need things like affirmative action. a lot of pacific islanders and hmong, etc. are no where NEAR a level where they do not need some 'urm boost.' even chinese americans have a strong divide between those who are very well educated...and those who do not even have high school degrees. it's a very polarized set up. it's a complex and tricky business that no one seems to pay much attention to, and a lot of that has to do w/ the fact that no one thinks there is a problem. damn, that model minority stereotype sure is trixy! lol

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby jin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:18 am

M51 wrote:
Derrex wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Also, OP is obviously a flame. Let's keep ignoring him.


What does a flame mean?
Yes, I am an looser and you should completely ignore me. I don't want to go law school anymore.

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby Rocketman11 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:04 am

kurama20 wrote:And the bolded is patently false on almost every level---particularly in high level managerial positions.


I'd recommend you talk to some HR folks at Fortune 500 companies. You will quickly see how their mindset is more closely aligned with me (qualified minority = amazing) than you (qualified minority = icky)

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby georgina » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:00 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
sure, but if you only focus on the glass ceiling, you forget about the overall discrimination. why do asians choose math/science/engineering fields? there's less discrimination there -- that and language mastery isnt as fundamentally important as it is in other fields. ive always been a proponent of the relative functionalist theory: asian americans strive to do well in education because other non-academic routes have been closed off to them. even a lot of manual labor occupations were shut off in the early 1960s due to labor union discrimination. all that was left required advanced degrees (im exaggerating a bit). asian americans dont have a hard time getting a job, it's getting the promotions to managerial positions that difficult. studies looking at census data show that asian americans, while having a higher family median income AND a higher individual median income (nowadays), do not actually earn as much as their white counterparts when factors such as hours worked, educational attainment, etc. are taken into account. less bang for your buck in a sense.

on the note of the whole model minority stereotype helping asians work harder in school...iunno, thats debatable. im more concerned w/ the fact that it masks the NEED for asians that DO need things like affirmative action. a lot of pacific islanders and hmong, etc. are no where NEAR a level where they do not need some 'urm boost.' even chinese americans have a strong divide between those who are very well educated...and those who do not even have high school degrees. it's a very polarized set up. it's a complex and tricky business that no one seems to pay much attention to, and a lot of that has to do w/ the fact that no one thinks there is a problem. damn, that model minority stereotype sure is trixy! lol


+238974 to many things that were said. lol this thread is amusing.

but i wanted to add, as an asian american, i've never heard of this relative functionalist theory. (sorry i am lacking in asian am history). i can see how it applies to asians that have been in america for generations, but i thought most of the asians here now were from more recent immigrations?

i kind of doubt most of the asians self-selecting into engineering and medicine these days are doing so because they feel like society pushes them there. usually it's from some family influence (why that happens someone can add), and there's a fairly large trend of asian american students these days breaking free, not from the stereotype, but from the hopes of their families, to pursue non-science things. that's how it was for me, anyway. i left an engineering/med background for law (and will not be doing patent law). i think that as these more recent generations of asians age, it will be interesting to see how the face of corporate america changes (or does not change), but i think not enough asians have been here long enough for us to cry discrimination.

and, totally agree that there are some asians deserving of URM boost. i've always felt socioeconomic status is a good qualifier for that type of boost. that's what diversity statements are for! and some schools give you an entire line where you can say why you feel like a part of an underrepresented group, which is nice and considerate.

AND um, you don't need to be highly proficient in english to succeed on the lsat. yes there's reading and comprehension, but succeeding on the test is so much about understanding the underlying logical reasoning (and games? hello?). i have an ESL friend studying for it that seems to be hurdling any language barrier.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:14 am

I'm glad I could do my part to contribute to this train wreck of a thread.

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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby The Zeppelin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:27 am

kurama20 wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote::lol: I'm not sure which one is funnier.

On the side note, do you really think that only URMs are disriminated IRL or that they are more discriminated than some other people?


Do I have to even answer this question for you? I almost forgot that I'm on the parallel universe which is TLS---where whites are struggling in anti white America, fighting against the oppressive Jim Dove laws of affirmative action. Not to mention the horrors of the NAACP and their right to get into Harvard. It's hard out here for a white guy.



Nice job completely misrepresenting her point.


Nice job not having enough common sense to realize that that comment was aimed at the overall trajectory of the thread. Bad job thinking the self tar was a good idea....

FWIW, I believe he looks like a young Benicio Del Toro

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150)

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:31 pm

georgina wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
sure, but if you only focus on the glass ceiling, you forget about the overall discrimination. why do asians choose math/science/engineering fields? there's less discrimination there -- that and language mastery isnt as fundamentally important as it is in other fields. ive always been a proponent of the relative functionalist theory: asian americans strive to do well in education because other non-academic routes have been closed off to them. even a lot of manual labor occupations were shut off in the early 1960s due to labor union discrimination. all that was left required advanced degrees (im exaggerating a bit). asian americans dont have a hard time getting a job, it's getting the promotions to managerial positions that difficult. studies looking at census data show that asian americans, while having a higher family median income AND a higher individual median income (nowadays), do not actually earn as much as their white counterparts when factors such as hours worked, educational attainment, etc. are taken into account. less bang for your buck in a sense.

on the note of the whole model minority stereotype helping asians work harder in school...iunno, thats debatable. im more concerned w/ the fact that it masks the NEED for asians that DO need things like affirmative action. a lot of pacific islanders and hmong, etc. are no where NEAR a level where they do not need some 'urm boost.' even chinese americans have a strong divide between those who are very well educated...and those who do not even have high school degrees. it's a very polarized set up. it's a complex and tricky business that no one seems to pay much attention to, and a lot of that has to do w/ the fact that no one thinks there is a problem. damn, that model minority stereotype sure is trixy! lol


+238974 to many things that were said. lol this thread is amusing.

but i wanted to add, as an asian american, i've never heard of this relative functionalist theory. (sorry i am lacking in asian am history). i can see how it applies to asians that have been in america for generations, but i thought most of the asians here now were from more recent immigrations?

i kind of doubt most of the asians self-selecting into engineering and medicine these days are doing so because they feel like society pushes them there. usually it's from some family influence (why that happens someone can add), and there's a fairly large trend of asian american students these days breaking free, not from the stereotype, but from the hopes of their families, to pursue non-science things. that's how it was for me, anyway. i left an engineering/med background for law (and will not be doing patent law). i think that as these more recent generations of asians age, it will be interesting to see how the face of corporate america changes (or does not change), but i think not enough asians have been here long enough for us to cry discrimination.



actually, a huge amount of asian americans came in the middle of the last century. that aside, you have to realize that the family influence is dependent on the society it exists in. its not like asian parents push their children to be doctors for some sort of altruistic reason. its for the financial security, and the fact that they ASSUME their children can actually succeed in those fields. usually, from what ive read, those assumptions came about due to the inherent level of discrimination they expect their children will face in x career paths.

and its funny how you should mention children breaking away from parental hopes and doing law. from the research ive done, ive also seen this -- except it is still all in the same FRAMEWORK. law is still prestigious. law is still financially secure (from a relative standpoint -- assuming you do well in the field). its not like asian american kids are suddenly all going into politics or educational administration or archaeology or the arts (though, undoubtedly, some are). but according to a lot of theories (relative functionalism included), over time more paths will appear to later asian american generations. either through lessened discrimination or a better manipulation of available resources/avenues, the later the asian american generation, the more it seems they break away from the model minority stereotype. they are closer, statistically, to their White peers in education...but at the same time, take on more professions outside of the 'asian fields.' it surely will be an interesting to see what happens in the next few decades.

oh and asian americans have been here and facing racism for a helluva long time lol. railroads anyone?

ps - sry if i ever come across as an asshole online; i never mean to be lol!

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rkitten
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby rkitten » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:54 pm

150 is low and indicative that you haven't mastered most of the concepts that the LSAT tests. I'm sure we can point to some random examples of people with LSAT's that low getting into top 20 schools but it's extremely unlikely and you should not count on it. Even a 155 would be better than a 150 (but not by much).

You will open up many doors for yourself if you can get that score closer to a 165. Please consider getting a tutor or devoting serious time to self-study and get that score over a 160.

What Asian URM are you? I know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian etc don't count as URMs.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Is there a HOPE? (3.65/150) Asian URM

Postby TheLuckyOne » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:16 pm

rkitten wrote:150 is low and indicative that you haven't mastered most of the concepts that the LSAT tests. I'm sure we can point to some random examples of people with LSAT's that low getting into top 20 schools but it's extremely unlikely and you should not count on it. Even a 155 would be better than a 150 (but not by much).

You will open up many doors for yourself if you can get that score closer to a 165. Please consider getting a tutor or devoting serious time to self-study and get that score over a 160.

What Asian URM are you? I know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian etc don't count as URMs.


He's a troll, don't bother.




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