Involuntary separation from job?

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angioletto
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Involuntary separation from job?

Postby angioletto » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:01 am

This seems like a silly question - I am filling out an app and it asks if I have ever been "involuntarily separated from a job." I have never been fired but I have been laid off due to lack of work, which I have always seen referred to as "involuntary layoff."

Does a layoff count as "involuntary separation" in this situation? It feels like checking yes is a bad thing.....

awesomepossum
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby awesomepossum » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:07 am

angioletto wrote:This seems like a silly question - I am filling out an app and it asks if I have ever been "involuntarily separated from a job." I have never been fired but I have been laid off due to lack of work, which I have always seen referred to as "involuntary layoff."

Does a layoff count as "involuntary separation" in this situation? It feels like checking yes is a bad thing.....



sounds like it. you didn't want to leave...but were required to leave. usually they ask for a reason as well...so you can explain there.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:07 am

Being laid off is considered an involuntary job separation.

I would check yes and then clarify.

In XXXX I was released from my position as a XXX for XXXX Company during an organization-wide reduction in force. Because my role was eliminated as a [cost saving/efficiency improvement/etc.] measure the company no longer required my services.

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ClemCarter
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby ClemCarter » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:08 am

Agreed. Maybe also throw in the phrase "not terminated for cause."

Scurredsitless1
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby Scurredsitless1 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:10 am

Unfortunately, it sounds like they worded it that way for people in your exact situation. A lot of young professionals have been laid off recently, so I'm sure a brief explaination will minimize any harm.

angioletto
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby angioletto » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:24 am

Scurredsitless1 wrote:Unfortunately, it sounds like they worded it that way for people in your exact situation. A lot of young professionals have been laid off recently, so I'm sure a brief explaination will minimize any harm.


Are they trying to determine an applicant's motive for applying with this question? I know that a lot of people apply because they were laid off and I feel as if I need to explain that I had always planned to apply.

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ClemCarter
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby ClemCarter » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:35 am

angioletto wrote:
Are they trying to determine an applicant's motive for applying with this question? I know that a lot of people apply because they were laid off and I feel as if I need to explain that I had always planned to apply.



This is an interesting point. I've heard that people applying to B-school are facing this way more than we are. Maybe just one sentence saying that the layoff wasn't what motivated you to apply. Keep it short and sweet.

Anybody else want to weigh in?

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Matthies
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby Matthies » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:03 pm

angioletto wrote:
Scurredsitless1 wrote:Unfortunately, it sounds like they worded it that way for people in your exact situation. A lot of young professionals have been laid off recently, so I'm sure a brief explaination will minimize any harm.


Are they trying to determine an applicant's motive for applying with this question? I know that a lot of people apply because they were laid off and I feel as if I need to explain that I had always planned to apply.


My guess is that it has more to do with trying to uncover any reason why you might have gotten fired. My bar apps asked a similar question, well several questions, and I think they were trying to find out if you every got fired for like stealing or embezzlement or something. I doubt it has much to do with the economy right now, my apps asked the same questions back in 2003-2004.

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Raskolnikoff
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby Raskolnikoff » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:43 pm

edited
Last edited by Raskolnikoff on Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

awesomepossum
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby awesomepossum » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:37 am

Raskolnikoff wrote:You should answer "no", which is short for "none of your business".



which might result in someday the Bar saying "no" which is short for "you're fucked"

Tshiner
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby Tshiner » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:52 am

Involuntary separation is only for when one is fired. This does NOT include layoffs. Involuntary separation specifically deals with termination of employment for reasons other than being laid off. Why would the bar ever care if you were laid off? Seriously??? Close friends, and GF are practicing attorneys, have been laid off, and answered no. You are supposed to answer no for that question if you have been laid off. WTF do you think they mean when asking that question... Common sense please.

awesomepossum
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby awesomepossum » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:56 am

Tshiner wrote:Involuntary separation is only for when one is fired. This does NOT include layoffs. Involuntary separation specifically deals with termination of employment for reasons other than being laid off. Why would the bar ever care if you were laid off? Seriously??? Close friends, and GF are practicing attorneys, have been laid off, and answered no. You are supposed to answer no for that question if you have been laid off. WTF do you think they mean when asking that question... Common sense please.



involuntary separation means you were not allowed to continue your job...and it wasn't your choice. That's why they usually have a column where you can explain the circumstances. In a lot of applications you have to say why the job ended even if it WAS voluntary. That leads to a lot of writing "summer job" under reasons why you left. It's probably not very useful for anything, but they ask anyway.

Common sense please.

awesomepossum
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby awesomepossum » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:00 am

on a quick google search, this is what UTEP has to say about these things mean (not the best source but I didn't want to spend a lot of time on something obvious):


A voluntary resignation exists when an employee notifies their supervisor or department head that
they have decided to leave their position with UTEP. Unlike involuntary separations, the decision
to leave is the employee’s.

Tshiner
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Re: Involuntary separation from job?

Postby Tshiner » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:34 am

You win, I am an a$$hole, yes is the appropriate answer. Here is a little document from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that was drafted to discuss the Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey (JOLTS). It gives the definition of involuntary separation on page 2 right column, starting in paragraph 2. http://www.bls.gov/osmr/pdf/st000160.pdf It specifically states in the beginning that "All opinions...Blah, Blah, Blah", but if the definition is being used for research at BLS I would guess its good enough for you to use. If you want the answer, just call the place you are submitting the app. Sometimes you run into the different institutions different policies issue.

Separations

There are three types of separations, as follows:
Quits, or "voluntary separations:" Employees who left
voluntarily (except for retirements or transfers, which
should be reported with “other separations”).

Layoffs and discharges, or "involuntary separations:"
Separations initiated by the employer, including layoffs
with no intent to rehire, discharges because positions
were eliminated, discharges resulting from mergers,
downsizing, or plant closings, firings or other
discharges for cause, termination of seasonal employees
(regardless of whether they are expected to return next
season), and layoffs lasting or expected to last more
than seven days.
Other separations: Separations not included above, such
as retirements, transfers to other locations, deaths, or
separations due to employee disability.




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