The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:16 pm

PKSebben wrote:If by rosy you mean ~25% shot at NJ250 from USC/UCLA. I suppose the bottom line is that nobody knows what the law firm model will look like in three years. If you are three cycles away from the hiring cycle, I think most of this data is largely useless. Go to the best school you can get into. Probably the safest strategy.


I think it is greater than 25% actually. '08 numbers show closer to 40%+ at NLJ 250.

Given that in three cycles the economy might go back to normal....same answer.

06072010
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 06072010 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:17 pm

I don't consider <50% hiring at big law firms to be rosy. It's that statistics guy in me. Gambler's bias.

the123kid
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby the123kid » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:17 pm

It's been said that the LA "biglaw market" is in worse shape than others, so don't get too gung-ho about going to USC/UCLA.

User avatar
doyleoil
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby doyleoil » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:18 pm

the123kid wrote:It's been said that the LA "biglaw market" is in worse shape than others, so don't get too gung-ho about going to USC/UCLA.


now don't go making him feel like he's actually going to have to "work hard" or "earn it" during law school

the123kid
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby the123kid » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:19 pm

"I think it is greater than 25% actually. '08 numbers show closer to 40%+ at NLJ 250.

Given that in three cycles the economy might go back to normal....same answer."

Yeah..most of those kids interviewed for their jobs in 2006, during the height of the bubble. The biglaw model is never going to be the same again, so your chances are likely lower than 25% if you goto one of the L.A. schools.

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:19 pm

the123kid wrote:It's been said that the LA "biglaw market" is in worse shape than others, so don't get too gung-ho about going to USC/UCLA.


Again three years later...different economy.

Also, my GPA is above median and my LSAT is 75th percentile. Ivy undergrad. I'd consider that a shoe-in.

the123kid
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby the123kid » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:22 pm

Yes, it will be a different economy than it was in 2006, that's for sure.

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:26 pm

the123kid wrote:Yes, it will be a different economy than it was in 2006, that's for sure.


agreed. the glory days of biglaw are over...

*nervous*

all i want is six figures in LA. maybe i should just go to the best school i get into....

User avatar
doyleoil
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby doyleoil » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:28 pm

nervous1 wrote:
Also, my GPA is above median and my LSAT is 75th percentile. Ivy undergrad. I'd consider that a shoe-in.


let's just make sure we can string together a couple pages that don't drip with our sense of entitlement, though, shall we? (particularly since our tiny pink brown degree isn't exactly the stuff that just automatically makes adcomms moist with anticipation)

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:29 pm

doyleoil wrote:
nervous1 wrote:
Also, my GPA is above median and my LSAT is 75th percentile. Ivy undergrad. I'd consider that a shoe-in.


let's just make sure we can string together a couple pages that don't drip with our sense of entitlement, though, shall we? (particularly since our tiny pink brown degree isn't exactly the stuff that just automatically makes adcomms moist with anticipation)


first-generation college student actually.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:33 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
waldodanto
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:07 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby waldodanto » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:19 am

PKSebben wrote: ... T20 and above is going to account for 85-90% of the right ...


t20 and.... above??

:shock: Princeton LAW

cbreault
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:48 am

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby cbreault » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:25 am

thesealocust wrote:OK, so since a lot of people here may not have done a ton of research into firm hiring, I wrote a primer on law firm rankings, the NLJ 250, and lawyer salaries. It follows my number crunching.

For the tl;dr crowd - I took the NLJ 250 data and calculated some actual stats to help settle the 'but the NLJ 250 is too east coast centric / includes many non 'market' paying firms / waaaaah' disputes that come up all the time on TLS.

First, the hard data: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2425778391

Now, the analysis. Follow me carefully, it may prove a comfort:

# of NLJ 250 firms: 250
# of Lawyers at NLJ 250 firms: 133,723
# of associates at NLJ 250 firms: 67,648
# of law students admitted each year: Roughly 50,000
# of law students graduating each year: Roughly 43,000
# of law students from the T14 going to NLJ 250 firms: Roughly 2,800
# of law students in the top 14 compared to all law schools: roughly 9%

# of NLJ 250 firms that paid $160,000 in 2008 ('market') in market (IE NYC/DC/IL/LA) areas: 115 (46%)
# of NLJ 250 firms that paid 6 figures (>= $100,000) in market areas: 203 (81.2%)
# of NLJ 250 firms that paid below 6 figures: 12 (4.8%)
# of NLJ 250 firms that did not report salary data: 35 (14%)

But wait thesealocust... the firms at the top of the list are like 10 times the size of the firms at the bottom! I want to hear about per-lawyer salaries, not per firm!

Well I'm glad you asked!

Percentage of NLJ 250 lawyers who work at a firm that pays market: 65.5% (note that comes from just 46% of firms)
Percentage of NLJ 250 lawyers who work at a firm that pays 6 figures: 84.7%

Firms that don't disclose salaries, by NLJ ranking:

Top 50: 5 firms
51-100: 4 firms
101-150: 11(!) firms
151-200: 7 firms
201-250: 8 firms

EDIT: BONUS MATH!

C/O '07 grads: 43,518
c/o '07 responding: 41,707
c/o '07 in NLJ 250: 12.6%

~5,200 biglaw 3L hires in 2007

~4,400 T14 grads in 2007
~2,800 T14 grads were 3L hires (ostensibly post 2L associateship)

People often mention that T14 = 50% or higher placement in the NLJ 250.

Now we can say with some degree of confidence that in 2007 roughly 54% of the total spots in the NLJ 250 went to graduates of the top 14 law schools.

---------------------------

thesealocust's primer on law firm rankings & salaries:

So these posts tend not to generate much discussion on TLS, but I ran some numbers that I thought would be really useful for discussions about which top law schools is topper than all the other top law schools, and other such important matters that tend to come up here.

A note on rankings: There are 3 obvious sources for ranking law firms.

The first is the Vault 100 - often discussed on places such as autoadmit. Firms here are ranked _exclusively_ by a survey of lawyers, much like the peer scores that USNWR uses. Take it in what sense thou whilt - this ranks nothing more than 'prestige'.

The second is the Amlaw rankings, usually 'first 100', 'second 100', etc. These are, as far as I know, strictly a ranking of how much money the firm earns. This is a proxy for size in most respects.

And the one that comes up the most due to its use in the rankins is the much flawed, oft quoted, NLJ 250. People used to USNWR rankings might assume that the NLJ uses some sort of stupid formula to rank law firms based on the size of their libraries, but it's quite a bit simpler: firms are ranked _exclusively_ on their size (# of attorneys). That's it. Easy, right?

Well, without knowing anything about law firms, those metrics sound pretty unrelated. But size often brings prestige and cash, so the top of the top are often the same. The rankings miss a lot of things though:

1) New York City is without a doubt the legal capitol of the world in terms of law firms. As a result firms there are much larger and often pay much more. This means that the NLJ 250 is disproportionately NY centric - it is often claimed that especially in California otherwise well paying and well respected firms don't make the cut since they're not as mammoth.

2) Some firms are extremely well known, pay associates huge amounts of $$$, but are fairly small. Two good examples are Wachtell and Williams & Connolly. The former pays market (~$160 last year) in NYC but gives bonuses that are often near 100% of base sallary (in exchange for ridiculous hours, of course). The latter has the highest starting associate salary - last year $180,000 - but does not pay bonuses. W&C is DC based and has very high profile cases - they defended Bill Clinton, for example.

Why did I pick out those two firms? Because they are comparatively tiny on the NLJ list, Wachtell is #187 - and W&C is #181. Firm size thus can't be an out-and-out proxy for prestige or salary, so we know we're working with flawed data.

3) 250 is a lot of firms - towards the bottom, firm sizes are all right around 200 attorneys and salary varies widely. I don't know why they picked 250 firms, but they did - and since a lot of our data comes via the NLJ 250, we have to work with it.

The most widely sourced data for how well a law school places their graduates comes from NLJ surveys. Here are the links:

Class of 2005, comprehensive data: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

(lest you feel too strongly that you're getting a sense for how to read this data, they also have another chart that is totally different also purporting to be C/O 2005: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf )

Additionally, we have the following more brief data for C/O 2008:

Image

And before we seriously start crunching numbers, remember the #1 piece of data to look at before starting law school: The bi-modal salary distribution:

Image

------------------------


See I told you sucked, they're not even in the top 20.

yesofcourse
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:03 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby yesofcourse » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:33 am

even if you happen to be a lucky one and obtain that pretty $200,000 starting salary, after the govt rapes you you will only be bringing home half of that. wow thats a depressing thought

User avatar
Chuch
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:53 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby Chuch » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:53 am

it seems like different posters have interpreted the implications of sealocust's data differently...

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:54 am

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lawfool
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby lawfool » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:55 am

BigTAX for the win.

And taxes will only be getting worse.........

Only fun piece of info I found was that 65% of T14 got biglaw in the past. The other 40% of NLJ jobs were split among the other 30000+ students. That sucks so much.

Two facts which should cheer anyone up:

1 - most biglaw stints are 2-4 years long
2 - these are starting salaries. if you fight for it and stay in the field you'll crack $100k eventually. Law has one of the highest margins of all the professions.

User avatar
Chuch
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:53 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby Chuch » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:01 pm

thesealocust wrote:Which is pretty unsurprising when you come right down to it.


confirmation bias?

User avatar
dresq
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:05 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby dresq » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:02 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Chuch wrote:it seems like different posters have interpreted the implications of sealocust's data differently...


Which is pretty unsurprising when you come right down to it.

didn't betasteve and rayiner explain this 100 times or so? i even made histograms for the bimodal distribution (not for 2008, but it's conceptually no different). if you want to talk about sh*tlaw, midlaw, and biglaw, don't you think a distribution with fewer partitions makes more sense than a continuous one?

User avatar
darknightbegins
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby darknightbegins » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:23 pm

lawfool wrote:BigTAX for the win.

And taxes will only be getting worse.........

Only fun piece of info I found was that 65% of T14 got biglaw in the past. The other 40% of NLJ jobs were split among the other 30000+ students. That sucks so much.

Two facts which should cheer anyone up:

1 - most biglaw stints are 2-4 years long
2 - these are starting salaries. if you fight for it and stay in the field you'll crack $100k eventually. Law has one of the highest margins of all the professions.


Yeah but usually after that 2-4 year stint you are able to land a sweet ass job with a resume of gold.

bigben
Posts: 703
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby bigben » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:09 pm

nice bump

Frank
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:25 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby Frank » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:23 pm

.
Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
prezidentv8
Posts: 2821
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:43 pm

Frank wrote:This needs to be bumped for reassessment


Reassessing law stuff....good...

back to learning the Constitution.

2plus2muchMath
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:54 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 2plus2muchMath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:08 pm

Image

I know - I capitalized salary like it was a proper noun or diety... its late and you just are supposed to capitalize titles.

edit - this was using the 2008 salary distribution graph posted earlier.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:11 pm

2plus2muchMath wrote:Image

I know - I capitalized salary like it was a proper noun or diety... its late and you just are supposed to capitalize titles.

edit - this was using the 2008 salary distribution graph posted earlier.


What data did you use and what did you do to make this graph? (I'm completely math-clueless, so I really am interested).

The reason I ask is because this graph seems to indicate a pretty sizeable "midlaw" type of pay range, and the general consensus on TLS is that midlaw is very, very small. So am I mis-reading your graph, are you wrong in your numbers, or is TLS wrong in its assessment?




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest