The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
Leeroy Jenkins
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:35 pm

CE2JD wrote:So... are some of you just trying to find stats that might lead you to think you actually have a decent chance at biglaw coming from outside the top25?

When you go to the People's College of Law, yes.

06072010
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 06072010 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:35 pm

nervous1 wrote:http://www.nalp.org/uploads/1229_natlsummary07revised.pdf

Looking at this...

Total Grads Class of 2007 — 43,518
Total Reported to NALP -- 41,707

Isn't that better than 50%?

Also 23% in private practice, full-time worked at a 501+ law firm with 145k-160k as 25th-75th salary.



Notice percentage of respondents reporting salary. 23,207 = ~53% reporting. I'd call that a scrap of evidence.

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:37 pm

CE2JD wrote:So... are some of you just trying to find stats that might lead you to think you actually have a decent chance at biglaw coming from outside the top25?


A great chance at a six figure salary in the top 20, a decent chance at 201+ lawyer firm with market starting salary in the top 20. (top 20 includes UT-Austin, USC, UCLA, etc.) That is all I am claiming.

User avatar
Chuch
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:53 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby Chuch » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:40 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Image


i've been trying to tell everyone that penn > harvard but nobody would listen.. lol@57%

bigben
Posts: 703
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby bigben » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:42 pm

nervous1 wrote:http://www.nalp.org/uploads/1229_natlsummary07revised.pdf

Looking at this...

Total Grads Class of 2007 — 43,518
Total Reported to NALP -- 41,707

Isn't that better than 50%?

Also 23% in private practice, full-time worked at a 501+ law firm with 145k-160k as 25th-75th salary.


In 2007, 40,416 responded to the employment survey, but only 23,337 included their salary.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:43 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

06072010
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 06072010 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:44 pm

nervous1 wrote:
I wanted to give the 12% of all lawyers a bit of perspective....ALL the students in the top 14 are only 9% of all graduating lawyers. This 50% response rate is total BS. I don't see a scrap of evidence for it, just another number pulled out of someone's ass. More BS, people parroting others. This board is completely useless sometimes. (Except for advice on how to get 170+ from people who just study the LSAT all day and obsess over rankings and their LSAT scores).

I'm done.


QFP

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:46 pm

nevermind. saw the data again.

oops.
Last edited by nervous1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

bigben
Posts: 703
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby bigben » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:47 pm

nervous1 wrote:http://www.nalp.org/uploads/1229_natlsummary07revised.pdf

Looking at this...

Total Grads Class of 2007 — 43,518
Total Reported to NALP -- 41,707

Isn't that better than 50%?

Also 23% in private practice, full-time worked at a 501+ law firm with 145k-160k as 25th-75th salary.



The 23% was actually 12% (during the boom), see here and here

User avatar
CE2JD
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:33 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby CE2JD » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:47 pm

nervous1 wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
nervous1 wrote:http://www.nalp.org/uploads/1229_natlsummary07revised.pdf

Looking at this...

Total Grads Class of 2007 — 43,518
Total Reported to NALP -- 41,707

Isn't that better than 50%?

Also 23% in private practice, full-time worked at a 501+ law firm with 145k-160k as 25th-75th salary.



Notice percentage of respondents reporting salary. 23,207. I'd call that a scrap of evidence.


This is getting silly. 23,207 isn't half because 43,518 of those surveyed aren't in private practice.

Here is a better idea...(from the first page)

Employment Status Known 40,416

Now looking at the chart above.....

Bar Passage Required 31,086 (lawyers who needed to pass the bar to get their current job)

75th percentile salary....135,000.

so what is one-fourth of 31,086....7771.5, let's say 7770. that is 17.8% of all graduates.

seems like pretty good odds considering 9% is all the students of the top 14 put together.


If you're too much of a dumbass not to be able to get into a t14, you're going to get fired even if you get a biglaw job anyways.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:48 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
doyleoil
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby doyleoil » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:49 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Image


too bad the chart we all (should) want to see won't be out for at least another year and a half

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:50 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:51 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

06072010
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 06072010 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:51 pm

Wait. Where did it say that this was information only pulled from private practice? That's not what the chart you posted says. It looks as that is information provided by schools to NALP. Out of the information provided to NALP only 53% provided salary data. Unless I'm missing something, that's a comprehensive list of all graduates and only half responded.

The bottom line is that even under the best set of circumstances in a boom economy it was exceptionally difficult to get a six-figure salary from all but the top schools. It's going to be much harder now, even for the T25 crowd. I'm very sorry reality has a non-T25 bias.

User avatar
gobucks101
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:43 am

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby gobucks101 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:52 pm

CE2JD wrote:
If you're too much of a dumbass not to be able to get into a t14, you're going to get fired even if you get a biglaw job anyways.

:oops:

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:52 pm

thesealocust wrote:
bigben wrote:
nervous1 wrote:http://www.nalp.org/uploads/1229_natlsummary07revised.pdf

Looking at this...

Total Grads Class of 2007 — 43,518
Total Reported to NALP -- 41,707

Isn't that better than 50%?

Also 23% in private practice, full-time worked at a 501+ law firm with 145k-160k as 25th-75th salary.


In 2007, 40,416 responded to the employment survey, but only 23,337 included their salary.


oooh, good data, let's do some science!

C/O '07 grads: 43,518
c/o '07 responding: 41,707
c/o '07 in NLJ 250: 12.6%

~5,200 biglaw 3L hires in 2007

~4,400 T14 grads in 2007
~2,800 T14 grads were 3L hires (ostensibly post 2L associateship)

People often mention that T14 = 50% or higher placement in the NLJ 250.

Now we can say with some degree of confidence that in 2007 roughly 54% of the total spots in the NLJ 250 went to graduates of the top 14 law schools.

Now THAT'S a piece of data I haven't seen before. Take it in what sense thou whilt!


And conversely, 46% of the total spots in the NLJ 250 didn't. Doesn't that reveal something?

06072010
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 06072010 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:54 pm

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

yesofcourse
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:03 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby yesofcourse » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:54 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Additionally, we have the following more brief data for C/O 2008:

Image

------------------------


So Georgetown has/had around 450-500 full time students and ~150 part time students. These stats take into account both. I could be wrong, but is it not safe to say that the full time students place better than the part time? If so, does anyone have any idea of what percentage of only the full time JD students at Georgetown place in the NLJ 250?

User avatar
doyleoil
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby doyleoil » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:54 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Everyone has two questions.

#1: How well will my law school place in the economy as it stands when I am being interviewed / hired ---> Matters for c/0 2011, 2012

#2: Relative to other schools, how will mine place? ---> matters to a ton of other people

That is to say, there's still a lot of good relative data to be had


not particularly - the economy will affect the relative placement statistics as much as it affects raw statistics for any single school

User avatar
CE2JD
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:33 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby CE2JD » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:55 pm

thesealocust wrote:
CE2JD wrote:If you're too much of a dumbass not to be able to get into a t14, you're going to get fired even if you get a biglaw job anyways.


My thread was for Enlightenment, Statistics, and Dorkery - and you've come with such hate and snark :cry:

More like UVTTTA Law c/o 2012 :(


I know. Shame on me.

I just see myself as a giant counterbalance to the overwhelmingly optimistic and idealistic attitudes that permeate this forum.

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:56 pm

PKSebben wrote:the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.


And are probably comprised of the 46% who didn't go to a top14 school.

I bet the bottom is still six figures though. And if in a major market...close to market (125, 135, etc.)

User avatar
doyleoil
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby doyleoil » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:57 pm

yesofcourse wrote:I could be wrong, but is it not safe to say that the full time students place better than the part time?


only inasmuch as lsat is a predictor of law school grades (i.e. not very safe at all)

nervous1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby nervous1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:58 pm

CE2JD wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
CE2JD wrote:If you're too much of a dumbass not to be able to get into a t14, you're going to get fired even if you get a biglaw job anyways.


My thread was for Enlightenment, Statistics, and Dorkery - and you've come with such hate and snark :cry:

More like UVTTTA Law c/o 2012 :(


I know. Shame on me.

I just see myself as a giant counterbalance to the overwhelmingly optimistic and idealistic attitudes that permeate this forum.



I see massive pessimism.

"YOU THINK YOU CAN GET A SIX FIGURE SALARY OUTSIDE OF A TOP 14 SCHOOL. HAHAHAHA..."

06072010
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Re: The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data

Postby 06072010 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:58 pm

nervous1 wrote:
PKSebben wrote:the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.


And are probably comprised of the 46% who didn't go to a top14 school.

I bet the bottom is still six figures though. And if in a major market...close to market (125, 135, etc.)


It's not six figures. I just ran some bottom firms through NALP. 60k, 80k, etc.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: checkcheckgo and 2 guests