The 'NLJ 250', Market Salary, and Math: Employment Data Forum

[thesealocust]

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[doyleoil]

I see massive pessimism.

"YOU THINK YOU CAN GET A SIX FIGURE SALARY EVEN FROM A TOP 14 SCHOOL. HAHAHAHA..."

fixed

[bigben]

Wait. Where did it say that this was information only pulled from private practice? That's not what the chart you posted says. It looks as that is information provided by schools to NALP. Out of the information provided to NALP only 53% provided salary data. Unless I'm missing something, that's a comprehensive list of all graduates and only half responded.

The bottom line is that even under the best set of circumstances in a boom economy it was exceptionally difficult to get a six-figure salary from all but the top schools. It's going to be much harder now, even for the T25 crowd. I'm very sorry reality has a non-T25 bias.

This is right -- it appears that in 2007 although 40,416 responded to the survey in some fashion, only 23,337 provided salary data, and the chart is based solely on that smaller group that provided salaries. Furthermore, the author finds that the number of high salaries reported is almost equal to the total number of NLJ250 jobs. Therefore, the 47% that did not report salaries are either unemployed or toward the lower end. This is corroborated by the chart I posted above.

For 2008, the number of grads who reported a salary was down slightly to 23,305, and the 2008 chart is based on that group. I am sure that the total number of grads went up in 2008, but I don't know how much. Therefore the response rate for 2008 was probably closer to 50%.

[nervous1]

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

And are probably comprised of the 46% who didn't go to a top14 school.

I bet the bottom is still six figures though. And if in a major market...close to market (125, 135, etc.)

It's not six figures. I just ran some bottom firms through NALP. 60k, 80k, etc.

You saw the actual numbers? Hm...then I wonder what all those graduates from top 20 schools at "Other Firms" make then. Probably market just at smaller firms.

[thesealocust]

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[06072010]

So at best you'd have a 7% shot at NJ250 (which isn't even market) if you didn't go to a T14. Think these might fall disproportionately to the T14-T25 and the top of the class at regional schools?

[the123kid]

It will be hard for T-14's to get good "biglaw" jobs in the future, too.

[thesealocust]

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[06072010]

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

*twitch*

Did you read my OP? Would you like me to send you my excel spread sheet? I know exactly what percentage of NLJ firms pay market, and exactly what percentage of lawyers in the NLJ (as top NLJ = bigger firm) make market.

In fact, the whole PURPOSE of this thread was to have a link to send when people said:

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

when the NLJ placement PDFs are being discussed.

I read the OP, dooder. I'm pointing out to nervous in the service that it's not as rosy as he thinks it is. Let's put a personal spin here. As a transfer from a T50 school to a T14 school, I know both sides of the coin. I can tell you with authority that it's not fucking pretty down there. You think things are scary here in the T10, you should see what my former classmates are doing.

[nervous1]

So at best you'd have a 7% shot at NJ250 (which isn't even market) if you didn't go to a T14. Think these might fall disproportionately to the T14-T25 and the top of the class at regional schools?

definitely

[thesealocust]

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[bigben]

Here's the quote:

# of NLJ 250 firms that paid $160,000 in 2008 ('market') in market (IE NYC/DC/IL/LA) areas: 115 (46%)
# of NLJ 250 firms that paid 6 figures (>= $100,000) in market areas: 203 (81.2%)
# of NLJ 250 firms that paid below 6 figures: 12 (4.8%)
# of NLJ 250 firms that did not report salary data: 35 (14%)

But wait thesealocust... the firms at the top of the list are like 10 times the size of the firms at the bottom! I want to hear about per-lawyer salaries, not per firm!

Well I'm glad you asked!

Percentage of NLJ 250 lawyers who work at a firm that pays market: 65.5% (note that comes from just 46% of firms)
Percentage of NLJ 250 lawyers who work at a firm that pays 6 figures: 84.7%
Percentage of NLJ 250 lawyers who work at a firm that pays less than 6 figures, or does not report salary: 15.3%

sealocaust,

That is very nice, I did not notice that you did that.

[CE2JD]

I read the OP, dooder. I'm pointing out to nervous in the service that it's not as rosey as he thinks it is. Let's put a personal spin here. As a transfer from a T50 schools to a T14 school, I know both sides of the coin, and I can tell you with authority, it's not fucking pretty down there. You think things are scary here in the T10, you should see what my former classmates are doing.

Fair enough. I still think that given 85% of NLJ lawyers pull down a 6 figure starting salary, NLJ = Market is valid statistical shorthand. That's nitpicking compared to your larger point though, which I grant entirely. You definitely do have the right set of credentials to be able to judge, thanks for all the first hand insights you provide! (I'm still just a lowly bored 0L)

So I'm curious: did you actually confirm independently each firm's size and salary?

[nervous1]

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

*twitch*

Did you read my OP? Would you like me to send you my excel spread sheet? I know exactly what percentage of NLJ firms pay market, and exactly what percentage of lawyers in the NLJ (as top NLJ = bigger firm) make market.

In fact, the whole PURPOSE of this thread was to have a link to send when people said:

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

when the NLJ placement PDFs are being discussed.

To put my personal perspective...I am debating between UCLA/USC and top14 with a desire to make a six figure salary in the LA area. With my GPA and LSAT I'm already a shoe-in at USC. Retaking in Sept if my practice test scores bear out this time....I'll be a shoe-in at USC/UCLA and lower top 14.

From my perspective (goal: just make six figures in LA when I graduate in 2012 from USC or UCLA), things are pretty rosy actually.....

I read the OP, dooder. I'm pointing out to nervous in the service that it's not as rosey as he thinks it is. Let's put a personal spin here. As a transfer from a T50 schools to a T14 school, I know both sides of the coin, and I can tell you with authority, it's not fucking pretty down there. You think things are scary here in the T10, you should see what my former classmates are doing.

[06072010]

I read the OP, dooder. I'm pointing out to nervous in the service that it's not as rosey as he thinks it is. Let's put a personal spin here. As a transfer from a T50 schools to a T14 school, I know both sides of the coin, and I can tell you with authority, it's not fucking pretty down there. You think things are scary here in the T10, you should see what my former classmates are doing.

Fair enough. I still think that given 85% of NLJ lawyers pull down a 6 figure starting salary, NLJ = Market is valid statistical shorthand. That's nitpicking compared to your larger point though, which I grant entirely. You definitely do have the right set of credentials to be able to judge, thanks for all the first hand insights you provide! (I'm still just a lowly bored 0L)

I think much ado is made of the T14 distinction (USC, UCLA, Vandy, UT seem to do just fine) but I think T20-25 is a very real cutoff in terms of placement. After that, it's coming down to grades and the economy of the region. People who don't think that are delusional.

[nervous1]

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

*twitch*

Did you read my OP? Would you like me to send you my excel spread sheet? I know exactly what percentage of NLJ firms pay market, and exactly what percentage of lawyers in the NLJ (as top NLJ = bigger firm) make market.

In fact, the whole PURPOSE of this thread was to have a link to send when people said:

the NJ250 is a worthless measure, kids. The bottom of that NJ250 might not pay anywhere near market.

when the NLJ placement PDFs are being discussed.

I read the OP, dooder. I'm pointing out to nervous in the service that it's not as rosey as he thinks it is. Let's put a personal spin here. As a transfer from a T50 schools to a T14 school, I know both sides of the coin, and I can tell you with authority, it's not fucking pretty down there. You think things are scary here in the T10, you should see what my former classmates are doing.

To put my personal perspective...I am debating between UCLA/USC and top14 with a desire to make a six figure salary in the LA area. With my GPA and LSAT I'm already a shoe-in at USC. Retaking in Sept if my practice test scores bear out this time....I'll be a shoe-in at USC/UCLA and lower top 14.

From my perspective (goal: just make six figures in LA when I graduate in 2012 from USC or UCLA), things are pretty rosy actually.....and the numbers seem favorable to this!

[doyleoil]

(I'm still just a lowly bored 0L)

don't sell us short, bro - soon enough we'll be 1Ls frightened at surviving oci with an offer, then 2Ls scared to death of getting no-offered, then 3Ls terrified that our deferrals will turn permanent (i made a lot of assumptions in there, but i don't care to have them pointed out, thank you)

[CE2JD]

To put my personal perspective...I am debating between UCLA/USC and top14 with a desire to make a six figure salary in the LA area. With my GPA and LSAT I'm already a shoe-in at USC. Retaking in Sept if my practice test scores bear out this time....I'll be a shoe-in at USC/UCLA and lower top 14.

From my perspective (goal: just make six figures in LA when I graduate in 2012 from USC or UCLA), things are pretty rosy actually.....and the numbers seem favorable to this!

OMG you're not even admitted to a law school yet and you're analyzing your chances at biglaw???


ROFL

[doyleoil]

To put my personal perspective...I am debating between UCLA/USC and top14 with a desire to make a six figure salary in the LA area. With my GPA and LSAT I'm already a shoe-in at USC. Retaking in Sept if my practice test scores bear out this time....I'll be a shoe-in at USC/UCLA and lower top 14.

From my perspective (goal: just make six figures in LA when I graduate in 2012 from USC or UCLA), things are pretty rosy actually.....and the numbers seem favorable to this!

don't you mean graduating in 2013? if so, you're likely in better shape than most of us mired in 2010-2012

[CE2JD]

(I'm still just a lowly bored 0L)

don't sell us short, bro - soon enough we'll be 1Ls frightened at surviving oci with an offer, then 2Ls scared to death of getting no-offered, then 3Ls terrified that our deferrals will turn permanent (i made a lot of assumptions in there, but i don't care to have them pointed out, thank you)

You make the unwarranted assumption that modern society as we know it will exist for 3 more years.

[nervous1]

To put my personal perspective...I am debating between UCLA/USC and top14 with a desire to make a six figure salary in the LA area. With my GPA and LSAT I'm already a shoe-in at USC. Retaking in Sept if my practice test scores bear out this time....I'll be a shoe-in at USC/UCLA and lower top 14.

From my perspective (goal: just make six figures in LA when I graduate in 2012 from USC or UCLA), things are pretty rosy actually.....and the numbers seem favorable to this!

OMG you're not even admitted to a law school yet and you're analyzing your chances at biglaw???


ROFL

I know it is kind of sad. But like I said...I'm wondering how hard biglaw in LA would be coming out of USC in three years, given that I am a shoe-in at USC.

[06072010]

If by rosy you mean ~25% shot at NJ250 from USC/UCLA. I suppose the bottom line is that nobody knows what the law firm model will look like in three years. If you are three cycles away from the hiring cycle, I think most of this data is largely useless. Go to the best school you can get into. Probably the safest strategy.

[doyleoil]

(I'm still just a lowly bored 0L)

don't sell us short, bro - soon enough we'll be 1Ls frightened at surviving oci with an offer, then 2Ls scared to death of getting no-offered, then 3Ls terrified that our deferrals will turn permanent (i made a lot of assumptions in there, but i don't care to have them pointed out, thank you)

You make the unwarranted assumption that modern society as we know it will exist for 3 more years.

what did i say, dammit?

[bigben]

Hey this is cool! So if 12.6% of all grads are in NLJ250, and 65% of NL250 make market while 85% make six figures, then

1) 8.2% of all law grads make 160k

2) 10.7% of all law grads make 100k+

WOW, that is even worse than I thought! (and this was in boom times before forecasts of 50%+ contraction in biglaw).


One caveat is while I think that the number of jobs outside of NLJ250 that pay 160k is very small indeed, the number of jobs outside the NLJ250 that pay 100k+ is likely a bit larger, good for a few percentage points maybe.

[doyleoil]

a shoe-in at USC.

i hope by shoe-in you mean you have both a gpa and an lsat above the 75th percentiles (and that you can somehow avoid coming across to an adcomm as a vapid douche in a personal statement, resume, etc.)