Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

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Kohinoor
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:01 am

danquayle wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
danquayle wrote:No, not at all. I'm not talking about the government per se. I was talking more about the ABA self-sanctioning a la how the NCAA does. Its eventually going to result in the dilution of the entire legal field such that it isn't a individual problem, but rather a systemic problem. I think you could easily argue that part of the reason the legal field is getting hit so hard right now from top to bottom is the saturation of the legal market. That saturation is a direct result of this poor reporting. It gives potential law students an overly optimistic view of their career options. Would there be a clearer picture, from top to bottom, the demand for a legal education would abate.

Besides, regulation that provides for punitive recourse isn't necessarily big government. It could easily mean the giving private actors self-help remedies.

You clearly don't understand what a direct result is.


Maybe not. But please explain your point.

1. The level of transparency in the legal field today is unprecedented. While there is certainly damning information that we're not privy to, there is more than enough data available that anyone making an uninformed choice about their law school is making that bad choice because of willful ignorance.

2. We don't end up with 45k lawyers a year because of dicey reporting. We end up with them because we live in a society that glorifies professionals and pumps out countless liberal arts grads with no vocational training each year.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:03 am

danquayle wrote:I've said it ad nauseum --> universities out to be treated more like businesses. Just like public companies have to report their financial accounting, law schools ought to be compelled to fully account for their students.

Of course, the problem is that these schools would still exploit these loopholes. Until there is some formal and effective regulation, these schools will never faithfully report employment statistics. Some tier 1 needs to get hard with serious sanctions to get the rest of the schools to fall in line.

8)

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neskerdoo
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby neskerdoo » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:09 am

Helmholtz wrote:On a related note, Ohio Northern only had 3% of their grads report their salary information and the median was still only $58,000.


Poor Ohio Northern.



are you serious? wow...

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Helmholtz
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:12 am

neskerdoo wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:On a related note, Ohio Northern only had 3% of their grads report their salary information and the median was still only $58,000.


Poor Ohio Northern.



are you serious? wow...


According to USNWR, yep. From what I've seen that's about the worst. God only knows what those other 97% are up to.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:13 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
neskerdoo wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:On a related note, Ohio Northern only had 3% of their grads report their salary information and the median was still only $58,000.


Poor Ohio Northern.



are you serious? wow...


According to USNWR, yep. From what I've seen that's about the worst. God only knows what those other 97% are up to.


This is truly frightening. I have to say that Kohinoor is right, though. If I can figure out how to do actual, real research about the school I'll be attending, anyone can. No PhD in aerospace engineering required. I don't have "all" the information, and I certainly would like to see it. However, I do have enough information to paint a reasonable picture of employment prospects at my school. As Nitsudrx pointed out, Fordham is far more transparent than most. I don't believe anyone should rely entirely on school statistics, though. Facts need to be cross referenced and checked. That's where alumni contact becomes useful. I've talked to a number of current and former students, and gotten a range of opinions about the school. One of the most glowing reports comes from a current Fordham undergraduate, who works for the school 40 hours a week, and takes classes at night. She told me point blank that she wants nothing more than to get into the law school. I asked her, jokingly, if she'd be tired of Fordham by then, since most people crave variety. She thought I was insane. I probably am, but not for the reasons suggested. :lol:

Alumni have been remarkably helpful and honest, including the '04 alumnus I dated briefly. He graduated in the top 5% of his class (I'm almost certain of it, given the V10 firm that hired him, though he was too modest to tell me anything more). There are various legends circulating about him, including one in which he declined a transfer to Columbia. I hope I'll have as much success, and as much loyalty.

The moral of this story: Fordham is what I'd hoped it would be. Nothing should be taken at face value, though. The best and most transparent claims still need to be researched. I did so, and was satisfied.

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neskerdoo
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby neskerdoo » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:22 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:This is truly frightening. I have to say that Kohinoor is right, though. If I can figure out how to do actual, real research about the school I'll be attending, anyone can. No PhD in aerospace engineering required. I don't have "all" the information, and I certainly would like to see it. However, I do have enough information to paint a reasonable picture of employment prospects at my school. As Nitsudrx pointed out, Fordham is far more transparent than most. I don't believe anyone should rely entirely on school statistics, though. Facts need to be cross referenced and checked. That's where alumni contact becomes useful. I've talked to a number of current and former students, and gotten a range of opinions about the school. One of the most glowing reports comes from a current Fordham undergraduate, who works for the school 40 hours a week, and takes classes at night. She told me point blank that she wants nothing more than to get into the law school. I asked her, jokingly, if she'd be tired of Fordham by then, since most people crave variety. She thought I was insane. I probably am, but not for the reasons suggested. :lol:

Alumni have been remarkably helpful and honest, including the '04 alumnus I dated briefly. He graduated in the top 5% of his class (I'm almost certain of it, given the V10 firm that hired him, though he was too modest to tell me anything more). There are various legends circulating about him, including one in which he declined a transfer to Columbia. I hope I'll have as much success, and as much loyalty.

The moral of this story: Fordham is what I'd hoped it would be. Nothing should be taken at face value, though. The best and most transparent claims still need to be researched. I did so, and was satisfied.



I can't tell whether you are paraphrasing Braveheart or Jerry Maguire here...

1474292940502124
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby 1474292940502124 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:25 pm

They were who we though they were. - Dennis Green

Starbuck
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Starbuck » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:34 pm

Romney2012 wrote:Hey I have got an idea. Let's try to sue a bunch of academic lawyers with JD's from the top of Harvard's class. It's going to end well!


Hope that maybe "those who can't teach" ??

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Mel Zelaya
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Mel Zelaya » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:36 pm

Starbuck wrote:
Romney2012 wrote:Hey I have got an idea. Let's try to sue a bunch of academic lawyers with JD's from the top of Harvard's class. It's going to end well!


Hope that maybe "those who can't teach" ??


, :P

Starbuck
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Starbuck » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:40 pm

ROFL. I tried not to laugh out loud and ended up snort-chuckling. Now my coworkers are giving me strange looks.... Thanks Neskerdoo.

neskerdoo wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:This is truly frightening. I have to say that Kohinoor is right, though. If I can figure out how to do actual, real research about the school I'll be attending, anyone can. No PhD in aerospace engineering required. I don't have "all" the information, and I certainly would like to see it. However, I do have enough information to paint a reasonable picture of employment prospects at my school. As Nitsudrx pointed out, Fordham is far more transparent than most. I don't believe anyone should rely entirely on school statistics, though. Facts need to be cross referenced and checked. That's where alumni contact becomes useful. I've talked to a number of current and former students, and gotten a range of opinions about the school. One of the most glowing reports comes from a current Fordham undergraduate, who works for the school 40 hours a week, and takes classes at night. She told me point blank that she wants nothing more than to get into the law school. I asked her, jokingly, if she'd be tired of Fordham by then, since most people crave variety. She thought I was insane. I probably am, but not for the reasons suggested. :lol:

Alumni have been remarkably helpful and honest, including the '04 alumnus I dated briefly. He graduated in the top 5% of his class (I'm almost certain of it, given the V10 firm that hired him, though he was too modest to tell me anything more). There are various legends circulating about him, including one in which he declined a transfer to Columbia. I hope I'll have as much success, and as much loyalty.

The moral of this story: Fordham is what I'd hoped it would be. Nothing should be taken at face value, though. The best and most transparent claims still need to be researched. I did so, and was satisfied.



I can't tell whether you are paraphrasing Braveheart or Jerry Maguire here...

cbreault
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby cbreault » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:56 pm

Snooker wrote:I was surprised last year to read a New York Times article listing Fordham's JD as the highest paying among the JDs, even higher than Columbia or NYU. Their admissions website baldly claims:

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."

The falsity of these claims is nothing new on these forums. Everyone knows that the median salary outside the top 15 or 16 schools is a much more modest $60,000, and that other schools saying their median grads, private sector or not, pulling $160,000 is total bullshit. I could have picked any law school, but Fordham is the most expensive and posts the most exaggerated statistics.

To the best of my knowledge, if you try to pitch securities type investments and use false data of any sort about past earnings, knowingly and with the intention of attracting bigger investments, then you're guilty of fraud. You have to compensate that individual for what they lost.

The social affect is staggering. Every year, the line of law school applicants grows a bit longer, ready to pay $40k a year with the promise that $160,000 salaries will soon follow. The ABA is supportive of these fraudulent practices. In 1996 the Department of Justice successfully prosecuted the ABA for abusing the accreditation process, most notably to engage in price-fixing law school salaries.

Law schools in general should be liable for the fraud they've committed. Why hasn't there been a lawsuit regarding the fraudulent use of employment statistics among law schools? A large portion of any of several dozen law schools' student body should be eligible for some damages.



There are quite a few law schools outside of the "top 15 or 16" schools where this not true. Take UGA for instance: http://www.law.uga.edu/career/statistic ... ats08.html

While the class of 2008 statistics include the average and not the median, I'm pretty sure the median is tens of thousands of dollars higher than $60,000 per year.

A few facts:

96% of the class was employed, with 98.1% reporting their employment status

9.85% of the class as a whole secured Federal clerkships (20 out of the total 33 or 17% obtaining judicial clerkships)

Private practice starting salary: $130,000 (57.5% of employed).

"Business" starting salary: $138,000 (7% of employed).

That's 64.5% of the over 95% employed averaging over $130,000. Of the other 35%, again, 10% obtained Federal clerkships, and so it stands to reason that these too would have been able to secure a jobs at $130,000+, which would put the total at 75%. Of the left over 25%, 7.25% obtained clerkships with state judges, 5.7% went into public interest (at an avg of $42,000), 11.4% went into government (at an avg. of $62,000).

Not bad for a school where the vast majority of the students either have or gain instate tuition at the sound of $13,000 per year.

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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Bankhead » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:07 pm

nice clerkship percentage UGA! i'm impressed.

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thesealocust
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:46 pm

Edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cbreault
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby cbreault » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:27 pm

thesealocust wrote:Georgia:

'09 stats peg them at 6% federal:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

As for the rest of the data, probably as crooked/skewed as the rest. Notice they list %age 'employment status known' but NOT what %age reported their salary.


Part of that is due to the difference in the total class size, 203 vs. 228.

I will find out what percentage reported their salary. I have been dealing with UGA pretty closely throughout the law schools admissions process, and didn't get the impression that they were so concerned with such things that they would lie or intentionally mislead in order to make themselves look better. I will find out though.

UGA was in the T-25 in appellate clerkships:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chool.html

UGA was also in the T-13 in US Supreme Court Clerk placement from 2000-2008:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

And UGA may have moved up a little more with the addition of one more clerk in the 2009 term.
Last edited by cbreault on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

geoanthem
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby geoanthem » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:53 pm

who turned this into a Georgia thread?

de5igual
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby de5igual » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:57 pm

cbreault wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Georgia:

'09 stats peg them at 6% federal:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

As for the rest of the data, probably as crooked/skewed as the rest. Notice they list %age 'employment status known' but NOT what %age reported their salary.


Part of that is due to the difference in the total class size, 203 vs. 228.

I will find out what percentage reported their salary. I have been dealing with UGA pretty closely throughout the law schools admissions process, and didn't get the impression that they were so concerned with such things that they would lie or intentionally mislead in order to make themselves look better. I will find out though.

This chart has UGA in the T-20 in terms of Federal Appelate Clerkship placement:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chart.html

UGA was also in the T-13 in US Supreme Court Clerk placement from 2000-2008:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chart.html

And UGA may have moved up a little more with the addition of one more clerk in the 2009 term.


you posted the same chart twice, but the chart doesn't have UGA listed

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Helmholtz
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:58 pm

f0bolous wrote:
cbreault wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Georgia:

'09 stats peg them at 6% federal:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

As for the rest of the data, probably as crooked/skewed as the rest. Notice they list %age 'employment status known' but NOT what %age reported their salary.


Part of that is due to the difference in the total class size, 203 vs. 228.

I will find out what percentage reported their salary. I have been dealing with UGA pretty closely throughout the law schools admissions process, and didn't get the impression that they were so concerned with such things that they would lie or intentionally mislead in order to make themselves look better. I will find out though.

This chart has UGA in the T-20 in terms of Federal Appelate Clerkship placement:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chart.html

UGA was also in the T-13 in US Supreme Court Clerk placement from 2000-2008:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chart.html

And UGA may have moved up a little more with the addition of one more clerk in the 2009 term.


you posted the same chart twice, but the chart doesn't have UGA listed


Geo = Georgia?

de5igual
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby de5igual » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:59 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Geo = Georgia?


nope...geo=gulc

it's just the usnews 2008 ranking's top 31 schools and how they fared.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:06 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Geo = Georgia?


nope...geo=gulc

it's just the usnews 2008 ranking's top 31 schools and how they fared.


GW = Geowgia?

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Chuch
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Chuch » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:08 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Geo = Georgia?


nope...geo=gulc


i hope he/she didn't make a deposit decision based on that data... yikes.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:10 pm

Chuch wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Geo = Georgia?


nope...geo=gulc


i hope he/she didn't make a deposit decision based on that data... yikes.


oh shit oh shit oh shit.....i want my money back

cbreault
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby cbreault » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:44 pm

f0bolous wrote:
cbreault wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Georgia:

'09 stats peg them at 6% federal:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

As for the rest of the data, probably as crooked/skewed as the rest. Notice they list %age 'employment status known' but NOT what %age reported their salary.


Part of that is due to the difference in the total class size, 203 vs. 228.

I will find out what percentage reported their salary. I have been dealing with UGA pretty closely throughout the law schools admissions process, and didn't get the impression that they were so concerned with such things that they would lie or intentionally mislead in order to make themselves look better. I will find out though.

This chart has UGA in the T-20 in terms of Federal Appelate Clerkship placement:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chart.html

UGA was also in the T-13 in US Supreme Court Clerk placement from 2000-2008:
http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chart.html

And UGA may have moved up a little more with the addition of one more clerk in the 2009 term.


you posted the same chart twice, but the chart doesn't have UGA listed


Fixed

cbreault
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby cbreault » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:48 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Chuch wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Geo = Georgia?


nope...geo=gulc


i hope he/she didn't make a deposit decision based on that data... yikes.


oh shit oh shit oh shit.....i want my money back


I'm not paying any money, so there's none to give back. Not now, nor in three years, big-baller.

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Chuch
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Chuch » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:50 pm

cbreault wrote:Fixed

f0bolous wrote:you posted the same chart twice, but the chart doesn't have UGA listed

cbreault
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby cbreault » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:51 pm

Chuch wrote:
cbreault wrote:Fixed

f0bolous wrote:you posted the same chart twice, but the chart doesn't have UGA listed



Look at the original post. I can't fix someone else's quote, now can I.




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