Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

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Snooker
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Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Snooker » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:47 pm

I was surprised last year to read a New York Times article listing Fordham's JD as the highest paying among the JDs, even higher than Columbia or NYU. Their admissions website baldly claims:

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."

The falsity of these claims is nothing new on these forums. Everyone knows that the median salary outside the top 15 or 16 schools is a much more modest $60,000, and that other schools saying their median grads, private sector or not, pulling $160,000 is total bullshit. I could have picked any law school, but Fordham is the most expensive and posts the most exaggerated statistics.

To the best of my knowledge, if you try to pitch securities type investments and use false data of any sort about past earnings, knowingly and with the intention of attracting bigger investments, then you're guilty of fraud. You have to compensate that individual for what they lost.

The social affect is staggering. Every year, the line of law school applicants grows a bit longer, ready to pay $40k a year with the promise that $160,000 salaries will soon follow. The ABA is supportive of these fraudulent practices. In 1996 the Department of Justice successfully prosecuted the ABA for abusing the accreditation process, most notably to engage in price-fixing law school salaries.

Law schools in general should be liable for the fraud they've committed. Why hasn't there been a lawsuit regarding the fraudulent use of employment statistics among law schools? A large portion of any of several dozen law schools' student body should be eligible for some damages.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:51 pm

Snooker wrote:Their admissions website baldly claims:

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


Really, it does? I can't find that anywhere. Can you link to it?

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MrOrange
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby MrOrange » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:54 pm

BaiAilian2013 wrote:
Snooker wrote:Their admissions website baldly claims:

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


Really, it does? I can't find that anywhere. Can you link to it?

http://law2.fordham.edu/ihtml/cp-2JDPro ... ml?id=1709

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Cranium
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Cranium » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:54 pm

What proof do you have that they are lying???

They could just have some really high extremes which throws the median off

OR-

They could be including in bonuses or education forgiveness grants for incoming lawyers, etc...

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MrOrange
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby MrOrange » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:55 pm

Cranium wrote:What proof do you have that they are lying???

They could just have some really high extremes which throws the median off

OR-

They could be including in bonuses or education forgiveness grants for incoming lawyers, etc...

He said fraud.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:56 pm

MrOrange wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:
Snooker wrote:Their admissions website baldly claims:

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


Really, it does? I can't find that anywhere. Can you link to it?

http://law2.fordham.edu/ihtml/cp-2JDPro ... ml?id=1709



ty

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:57 pm

Since you're speaking of fraud, how would it be reasonable to rely on a claim of the "median salary is $160,000?"

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:58 pm

Cranium wrote:They could just have some really high extremes which throws the median off

Statistics Fail.

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playhero
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby playhero » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:59 pm

Hey I have got an idea. Let's try to sue a bunch of academic lawyers with JD's from the top of Harvard's class. It's going to end well!

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coolkatz321
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby coolkatz321 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:02 pm

Cranium wrote:They could just have some really high extremes which throws the median off


Since when does median = mean? :?

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capitalacq
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby capitalacq » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:02 pm

go chase an ambulance

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redsox8105
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby redsox8105 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:05 pm

OperaSoprano bait?

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Cranium
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Cranium » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:07 pm

The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

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zanda
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby zanda » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:13 pm

Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:They could just have some really high extremes which throws the median off

Statistics Fail.

beat me to it

Connelly
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Connelly » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:15 pm

Here are the numbers from the site:

General Employment Statistics (99.15% of the Class of 2008 reported employment information)
At Graduation Employment Rate: 85.34%
9 Month Out Employment Rate: 95.05%

Salary Information:

Average Salary: $131,477
Median Salary: $160,000
With 87.13% of graduates reporting salary information...


Going off of these, you would only need at most 44ish percent of all students to get placed at firms paying $160k (or higher). Considering this is a well-ranked school that doesn't push out clerkships like its higher-ranked competitors in the area, it's not outlandish that Fordham could be supplying large amounts of associates for law firms in NY. Even non-biglaw was paying $160k in 2008. Fordham may also be able to skew the stats a little higher relative to other NY schools since they have the highest ranking PT program in the area. A bunch of working professionals who could have gone to better schools if they had chosen the FT route along with enough IP grads, and these numbers aren't impossible. Misleading, of course, but not impossible.

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:15 pm

Cranium wrote:The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.

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Cranium
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Cranium » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:19 pm

Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.



THE MEDIAN !!!

OP is using MEDIAN NOT MEAN -- BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."

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Quine
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Quine » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:19 pm

zanda wrote:
Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:They could just have some really high extremes which throws the median off

Statistics Fail.

beat me to it


+1

tram988
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby tram988 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:20 pm

Cranium wrote:
Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.



THE MEDIAN !!!

OP is using MEDIAN NOT MEAN -- BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


hahahaha future lawyers babbby!

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Quine
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Quine » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:22 pm

Cranium wrote:
Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.



THE MEDIAN !!!

OP is using MEDIAN NOT MEAN -- BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


A difference you are apparently unable to see.

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Cranium
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Cranium » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:27 pm

mctj wrote:
Cranium wrote:
Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.



THE MEDIAN !!!

OP is using MEDIAN NOT MEAN -- BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


A difference you are apparently unable to see.


Yes, the median is the middle number and the mean is the average.

Extremes can have a greater impact on the median than mean which is why I bet they are reporting the median

No, I think you don't see it !!!

1474292940502124
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby 1474292940502124 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:27 pm

mctj wrote:
Cranium wrote:
Lxw wrote:
Cranium wrote:The median is the middle of a data set

If you have the numbers

0, 1, 2, 10, 10, 10, 12

Here the median is 10 so it is a bit to the extreme considering the gap from low to high

False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.



THE MEDIAN !!!

OP is using MEDIAN NOT MEAN -- BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


A difference you are apparently unable to see.


OK... cranium is correct in his calculation of the median of the provided data set. The issue is that cranium used the term extremes - which holds a specific statistical definition that cranium either didn't know about or didn't understand. They are arguing different things.

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zanda
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby zanda » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:30 pm

betasteve wrote:
mctj wrote:
Cranium wrote:
Lxw wrote:False.

The mean is 6.4 with a standard deviation of 5. There are no extremes in your data set. An extreme should be at least 2 standard deviations from the mean.



THE MEDIAN !!!

OP is using MEDIAN NOT MEAN -- BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

"The median salary for the class of 2007 was $160,000."


A difference you are apparently unable to see.


OK... cranium is correct in his calculation of the median of the provided data set. The issue is that cranium used the term extremes - which holds a specific statistical definition that cranium either didn't know about or didn't understand. They are arguing different things.

word.

that and, if his post is read as he seemingly wants us to read it, his post says that Fordam could "just" have half of their graduates earning 160k plus, which is something that can hardly be explained away with only a "just," as it would in fact be an extremely surprising statistic.

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Cranium
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby Cranium » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:31 pm

Whoops, maybe I should have just said -- too many outliers !!! Better word choice ???

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zanda
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Re: Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

Postby zanda » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:32 pm

Cranium wrote:Whoops, maybe I should have just said -- too many outliers !!! Better word choice ???

but they aren't outliers if they're HALF of the graduating class, which is what is required for the median salary to be 160k.




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