Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

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Olto
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:04 pm

rayiner wrote:
Olto wrote:Again, only people who live on TLS know the ins-and-outs of the process. Most people who apply to law school don't make the admissions process their #1 most-visited website.


You would think, that before investing $40k/year on a law school, that people would do some research. The first time I bought a nice pair of shoes, I hit up the Ask Andy forum to do some research on brands. I found some nice brands and saved myself from a $400 mistake. If someone is too stupid to do that sort of research for something that costs 100 times more PER YEAR, then they deserve to be ridiculed.



They do conduct research, not in the way that users of this site do (ie: asking the same questions over and over again but with slight variations, expecting to hear different responses). They field the offers from other schools, as OP did, looked at money options. They look at the literature provided by the schools. Talk to admissions consultants at their undergrad or to other lawyers they know. There's a lot of self re-assurance in the process - in other words, a Vermont grad would tell OP - yeah, go to Vermont, it worked out well for me! This follows in the materials received by each school. Not every person thinks to scour the Internet and invoke the opinions of anonymous people who are, in many instances, driven merely by rankings or their own personal preferences.

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue May 12, 2009 1:05 pm

Olto wrote:Mostly it's people on TLS who would call it a failure, which just proves my point even further. Not everyone reads these sites. How about this for a basis: UVM's law website says "Law for the community and the world." It pitches its #1 environmental law ranking (presumably making it more global). I'm sure all over their literature is how their graduates practice all over the country and the world, etc. Yeah, it's all marketing, but people read this stuff and believe it. The schools then put you in touch with alums who will join the chorus and drive it in even further. It's not a completely unreasonable mistake to make. Again, only people who live on TLS know the ins-and-outs of the process. Most people who apply to law school don't make the admissions process their #1 most-visited website.

Do you believe Verizon when they say they have the largest 3G network? or sprint when they say they have the fastest 3G network? How about AT&T, who has laid claim to the best 3G network? Dumb consumers aren't limited to prospective law school students. And that is an unreasonable mistake to make. You should always try to get an opinion from someone who has absolutely no interest in you or your success or your failure. A law school is never going to portray itself as something other than optimal, and your friends and family will always give you words of support unless you're doing something they know for a fact to be utterly stupid.

I wouldn't even buy a $50 video game (and spend 20+ hrs of my life playing it) unless I know I'm going to enjoy it, so for someone to spend 3 years of their life and $100,000 on something they took at face value, they don't deserve any sympathy. If it was $20, it's a good laugh. $1,000 and you feel sorry for the guy. $100,000 and you are just glad you aren't anything like him.

edit: by the way, googling "best law school" gives this site as the first hit. If you can't use Google effectively for something this simple...you generally FAIL at life.
Last edited by Leeroy Jenkins on Tue May 12, 2009 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ruraljuror
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby ruraljuror » Tue May 12, 2009 1:06 pm

rayiner wrote:
Olto wrote:Again, only people who live on TLS know the ins-and-outs of the process. Most people who apply to law school don't make the admissions process their #1 most-visited website.


You would think, that before investing $40k/year on a law school, that people would do some research. The first time I bought a nice pair of shoes, I hit up the Ask Andy forum to do some research on brands. I found some nice brands and saved myself from a $400 mistake. If someone is too stupid to do that sort of research for something that costs 100 times more PER YEAR, then they deserve to be ridiculed.


I agree. I mean TLS is at the top of the list when you google anything about law school, and you'd think that when it comes down to one's whole future, s/he would want to have all the information to make the best decision. If you can't be bothered, you deserve what's comin'.

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dresden doll
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby dresden doll » Tue May 12, 2009 1:07 pm

Olto wrote:Mostly it's people on TLS who would call it a failure, which just proves my point even further. Not everyone reads these sites. How about this for a basis: UVM's law website says "Law for the community and the world." It pitches its #1 environmental law ranking (presumably making it more global). I'm sure all over their literature is how their graduates practice all over the country and the world, etc. Yeah, it's all marketing, but people read this stuff and believe it. The schools then put you in touch with alums who will join the chorus and drive it in even further. It's not a completely unreasonable mistake to make. Again, only people who live on TLS know the ins-and-outs of the process. Most people who apply to law school don't make the admissions process their #1 most-visited website.


My sympathy quotient is greater than 0, but not by much.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Cleareyes » Tue May 12, 2009 1:10 pm

Olto wrote:

They do conduct research, not in the way that users of this site do (ie: asking the same questions over and over again but with slight variations, expecting to hear different responses). They field the offers from other schools, as OP did, looked at money options. They look at the literature provided by the schools. Talk to admissions consultants at their undergrad or to other lawyers they know. There's a lot of self re-assurance in the process - in other words, a Vermont grad would tell OP - yeah, go to Vermont, it worked out well for me! This follows in the materials received by each school. Not every person thinks to scour the Internet and invoke the opinions of anonymous people who are, in many instances, driven merely by rankings or their own personal preferences.


Actually what you'll find on this site is, with a few exceptions, different people asking the questions and the same people answering them.

And most of us on this site didn't JUST use TLS to figure things out. What did I do?

I talked to lawyers. A bunch of lawyers. Lawyers who are doing different things with their careers. Lawyers who went to different law schools. Lawyers with different interests at different stages of their careers. Then I combined that information with data from some law students I know and the school data and TLS etc... to make the best informed decision I could. Did I end up taking the highest ranked school I was admitted to? I did. But that's not because I trusted the rankings, and I wouldn't always advise people to make the same choice I did. I don't always give that advice.

Research cannot be trusted if all your sources are biased. You should know that by the time you graduate from college.

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rayiner
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby rayiner » Tue May 12, 2009 1:11 pm

Not every person thinks to scour the Internet and invoke the opinions of anonymous people who are, in many instances, driven merely by rankings or their own personal preferences.


I'm one of those people that researches EVERYTHING on the internet, and in my experience, people on the internet know a shit-ton more than people in real life. I don't ask my friends' opinions on what shoes/TV/car to buy, much less on what law school to go to. I want advice from the most hardcore crazy people I can find, and they're all on the internet.

In my own cycle, TLS and the internet has helped me avoid a ton of mistakes:

1) Taking the LSAT seriously
2) Ditching anything with the word "Kaplan" on it
3) Not wasting money on apps to non splitter-friendly schools
4) Not believing the "$125k median" figures I found on Emory, etc's, websites...
5) Getting Anna Ivey's book instead of all the other random ones

Also, my shoes are holding up great, I own a sweet TV, and I love my car. All thanks to the internet!

Olto
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:26 pm

Again, you all represent maybe 1% of the law school 0Ls. You can reinforce each other with your beliefs and often come to the same conclusions because you all read the same material on this site. Literally every single 0L I have talked to has NOT heard about TLS or LSD.org. Out of the ~dozen 1Ls that I have mentioned TLS to, maybe 2 have acknowledged that they know it. Most people do their own research in their own ways, as described above. Yes, I tell 0Ls to avoid regional schools if they want to practice in a different area, but not everyone does the same and the information that is out there doesn't point conclusively in one direction or the other.

So you guys can all indict the average 0L for not wanting to listen to your advice, but I find that generally the opinions promulgated on this site, while well-informed and strongly reasoned, are not representative of the information elsewhere available and also often run counter to what else they might have heard from friends, alums of schools, etc. Again, not everyone has 1500 posts on ANY message board; the internet isn't the end-all-be-all to most of us. There's a lot of information out there and a lot of people are apprehensive of it. Kudos to you for buying your shoes based on reviews - I, too, check gamespot.com for video game reviews. But I also don't go to the message boards there to hear everyone calling each other "n00bs" because they have less Xbox 360 Achievement points.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Cleareyes » Tue May 12, 2009 1:31 pm

Olto wrote:Again, you all represent maybe 1% of the law school 0Ls. You can reinforce each other with your beliefs and often come to the same conclusions because you all read the same material on this site. Literally every single 0L I have talked to has NOT heard about TLS or LSD.org. Out of the ~dozen 1Ls that I have mentioned TLS to, maybe 2 have acknowledged that they know it. Most people do their own research in their own ways, as described above. Yes, I tell 0Ls to avoid regional schools if they want to practice in a different area, but not everyone does the same and the information that is out there doesn't point conclusively in one direction or the other.

So you guys can all indict the average 0L for not wanting to listen to your advice, but I find that generally the opinions promulgated on this site, while well-informed and strongly reasoned, are not representative of the information elsewhere available and also often run counter to what else they might have heard from friends, alums of schools, etc. Again, not everyone has 1500 posts on ANY message board; the internet isn't the end-all-be-all to most of us. There's a lot of information out there and a lot of people are apprehensive of it. Kudos to you for buying your shoes based on reviews - I, too, check gamespot.com for video game reviews. But I also don't go to the message boards there to hear everyone calling each other "n00bs" because they have less Xbox 360 Achievement points.


Videogames don't matter. Law schools do. And this guy is not getting the l0l n00b for going to Vermont. He's getting the L0l N00b because he went to Vermont and is complaining that the only good job offers he got were IN VERMONT. That's like complaining that the only thing your local pizza place does well is pizza.

At the point where he decided to ignore the Vermont job offers in the hopes of breaking into the TOUGHEST LEGAL MARKET IN THE COUNTRY he was a 2L or 3L. He should have done some research into this stuff at some point, right? Did he just show up in Manhattan with his JD and a "hire me" sandwich board?

Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue May 12, 2009 1:34 pm

Olto wrote:Again, you all represent maybe 1% of the law school 0Ls. You can reinforce each other with your beliefs and often come to the same conclusions because you all read the same material on this site. Literally every single 0L I have talked to has NOT heard about TLS or LSD.org. Out of the ~dozen 1Ls that I have mentioned TLS to, maybe 2 have acknowledged that they know it. Most people do their own research in their own ways, as described above. Yes, I tell 0Ls to avoid regional schools if they want to practice in a different area, but not everyone does the same and the information that is out there doesn't point conclusively in one direction or the other.

So you guys can all indict the average 0L for not wanting to listen to your advice, but I find that generally the opinions promulgated on this site, while well-informed and strongly reasoned, are not representative of the information elsewhere available and also often run counter to what else they might have heard from friends, alums of schools, etc. Again, not everyone has 1500 posts on ANY message board; the internet isn't the end-all-be-all to most of us. There's a lot of information out there and a lot of people are apprehensive of it. Kudos to you for buying your shoes based on reviews - I, too, check gamespot.com for video game reviews. But I also don't go to the message boards there to hear everyone calling each other "n00bs" because they have less Xbox 360 Achievement points.

Actually, I read that bit about regional law schools having no national reach in Law School Confidential (published many years ago), which is a widely available book you can pick up at Borders for twenty bucks. That was a year before I discovered this site. (and this site echoes Law School Confidential in many ways, guess who came first). Using the excuse of "I don't do the internet" doesn't work. It's called a bookstore. Go there if you are technologically illiterate or don't know how to talk to attorneys.
Last edited by Leeroy Jenkins on Tue May 12, 2009 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TonyDigital
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby TonyDigital » Tue May 12, 2009 1:35 pm

I'm not going to ridicule OP but I am not sorry for him either. Law school is a very expensive, 3-year commitment. Like rayiner said, how could one not do the research? Especially on something so big and serious?

So basically, OP went to law school...had opportunities but turned them down because they weren't the opportunities he wanted. I wish OP good luck. I'm just not the type to complain or whine about something if everything doesn't go my way...

Also, I don't think most people on this forum would claim to know everything about law school and the admissions process, but as a collective, I believe TLS is a pretty damn awesome resource. I occasionaly visit a different forum that will cite TLS for information seekers.

Olto
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:42 pm

Cleareyes wrote:Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?


I'm not condoning it. I try to get people to avoid it ALL OF THE TIME. But, the simple reality is that, again, you all represent the 1% well-informed minority of the law school admissions pool. These mistakes happen all of the time and it saddens me that you guys are all so abrasive about it. All I'm saying is: not everyone has 3,000 posts on this website and finely-tunes every part of their application and process with every possible piece of advice they can get by scouring the thousands of posts here. It's quite the contrary: being a lawyer is something they want to do, they apply to a bunch of schools in their numerical range, they field any scholarship offers, then they figure out which matches their lifestyle and career goals given the information provided by the schools, their friends, and lawyers they might know. I don't think that's something so ridiculous.

Plus, again, it's only haphazard to you all to NOT check this site. But I can't tell you how many people I've encountered that do not even know that these sites exist. There's also an argument the other way: perhaps it is haphazard in the first place to field advice on an anonymous message board. Yes, it's nice to assume that people are virtuous and will be honest, but maybe they are not? Or, on any given thread, there are countless competing opinions, which could confuse an applicant even more. Maybe THAT is haphazard. I don't feel this way, but just recognize that there are arguments on both sides.

Olto
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:45 pm

Lxw wrote:Actually, I read that bit about regional law schools having no national reach in Law School Confidential (published many years ago), which is a widely available book you can pick up at Borders for twenty bucks. That was a year before I discovered this site. (and this site echoes Law School Confidential in many ways, guess who came first). Using the excuse of "I don't do the internet" doesn't work. It's called a bookstore. Go there if you are technologically illiterate or don't know how to talk to attorneys.



Law School Confidential was useful for maybe three pieces of advice. The whole rest of the book has proven to be VASTLY incorrect or inapplicable to my law school experience. So, again, there are arguments against even those generalized sources of information.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby ResIpsaLoquitur » Tue May 12, 2009 1:46 pm

Lxw wrote:edit: by the way, googling "best law school" gives this site as the first hit. If you can't use Google effectively for something this simple...you generally FAIL at life.


But who said TLS is the best source of information? :) For all of the accurate, good sound advice people get here there are tons of people who are just losers who just spew venom.

FWIW, I still think it was not a good idea to go to Vermont and expect a job in NYC. You dont really need to do much research to figure out that nyc has NYU, Columbia, Fordham, Cardozo, BLS, SJU all the way down to Touro PLUS schools like Cornell, other T-14 and upstate schools (ie Buffalo, 'Cuse) trying to get jobs here.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:51 pm

ResIpsaLoquitur wrote:
Lxw wrote:edit: by the way, googling "best law school" gives this site as the first hit. If you can't use Google effectively for something this simple...you generally FAIL at life.


But who said TLS is the best source of information? :) For all of the accurate, good sound advice people get here there are tons of people who are just losers who just spew venom.

FWIW, I still think it was not a good idea to go to Vermont and expect a job in NYC. You dont really need to do much research to figure out that nyc has NYU, Columbia, Fordham, Cardozo, BLS, SJU all the way down to Touro PLUS schools like Cornell, other T-14 and upstate schools (ie Buffalo, 'Cuse) trying to get jobs here.



Yeah, googling TLS as a source of information was really apprehensive to me at first. The front page of the site is ridden with bias by the site's creator. I like Ken a lot and I think what he is doing is great, but splashing Berkeley all over the front page smells of bias. He mentions Berkeley three times: On the top, above Yale and Harvard under the link "Law School Profiles"; In the middle of the page "Top-Law-Schools.com was created by Ken De Leon, a graduate of UC Berkeley's Boalt Hall Law School"; then on the bottom of the page with the images of Yale, then Harvard, then Stanford, then Berkeley. Columbia isn't even mentioned once, nor are other schools ranked above Berkeley in several areas. Yes, I know Berkeley is a great school, but I see no explanation other than that Ken wanted Berkeley to be in all three possible areas.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Cleareyes » Tue May 12, 2009 1:52 pm

Olto wrote:It's quite the contrary: being a lawyer is something they want to do, they apply to a bunch of schools in their numerical range, they field any scholarship offers, then they figure out which matches their lifestyle and career goals given the information provided by the schools, their friends, and lawyers they might know. I don't think that's something so ridiculous.

Plus, again, it's only haphazard to you all to NOT check this site. But I can't tell you how many people I've encountered that do not even know that these sites exist. There's also an argument the other way: perhaps it is haphazard in the first place to field advice on an anonymous message board. Yes, it's nice to assume that people are virtuous and will be honest, but maybe they are not? Or, on any given thread, there are countless competing opinions, which could confuse an applicant even more. Maybe THAT is haphazard. I don't feel this way, but just recognize that there are arguments on both sides.


Considering the cost and commitment necessary for law school I would say that trusting schools and uninformed friends IS ridiculous. The schools are advertising for themselves. That's the same at Vermont as it is at Columbia. So how do you figure out that Columbia can deliver and Vermont can't? Look at the best stats you can and yes, talk to attorneys. I would like to meet the attorney who suggested that Vermont Law School was a good choice for someone practicing in New York. That person is either a liar, a fool, or an old person who got his JD in a totally different law market. I mean yes, there are Vermont law graduates who come to New York, and I would bet there are some who excel, but even they would likely say it's a tough road to hoe.

It would be absolutely haphazard and irresponsible to rely upon TLS as your only source of information in the law school decision process. TLS is a tool. Most of us who have high post counts ran up our accounts dicking around or trying to help people, not gathering the same data again and again. I'd say it takes about 5-7 hours to gather 95% of the information TLS has to offer you for your particular situation (LSAT prep/ personal statement help aside)

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Grad_Student
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Grad_Student » Tue May 12, 2009 1:56 pm

Fuck it, I'm tired of this shit hole stories. Here's mine:

I graduated from college 2 years ago*. This past fall I started law school at a small TTT in Houston that isn't the black school (you figure it out). I went through finals in the fall and ended up probably Top 40%, nothing to write home about. I applied to a shit ton of firms in Houston and Austin. I probably got 50% of what I applied to in BOTH Houston and Austin. They weren't NALP firms but they sure as fuck weren't solos. I ended up taking a paying DA clerkship with county next to Harris county.

So lets think about this for a moment....

TTT student
Top 40%
Have a job as a 1L, that's paid


Point is, if you are going to go to a TTT in a market that is overly saturated with schools that are ranked higher than you don't fucking bitch. Second, get the fuck out of NYC if you are working at fucking IHOP. What the fuck is wrong with you?! Work in a small county, move to a smaller city, just stop working at fucking IHOP.


Not every TTT is going to be dog shit. Sure there are more dog shit ones than good ones but if you do your research and not blindly follow US News, you'll find a decent school that produces decent graduates. I have YET to find an attorney that didn't know my school or said anything negative about it. A good majority of the attorneys at each firm I applied to graduated from my TTT.



*I have a good amount of work experience, I know that helped me in getting a job. Before you commit to a TTT, go work.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:59 pm

Grad_Student wrote:deleted



You sound like a very pleasant person. Thanks for your insight.

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Grad_Student
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Grad_Student » Tue May 12, 2009 2:03 pm

Olto wrote:
Grad_Student wrote:deleted



You sound like a very pleasant person. Thanks for your insight.

I just get tired of the "I'm at a TTT, pity me, I can't find a job because I won't leave"

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby ResIpsaLoquitur » Tue May 12, 2009 2:06 pm

Olto wrote:
Grad_Student wrote:deleted



You sound like a very pleasant person. Thanks for your insight.


lawl.

Olto
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Olto » Tue May 12, 2009 2:08 pm

Grad_Student wrote:I just get tired of the "I'm at a TTT, pity me, I can't find a job because I won't leave"



If this bothers you... well, let's just hope that one of the attorneys you work with this summer doesn't complain about the weather outside. We'll read about it your ensuing meltdown AboveTheLaw I guess.

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dresden doll
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby dresden doll » Tue May 12, 2009 2:10 pm

Olto wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?


I'm not condoning it. I try to get people to avoid it ALL OF THE TIME. But, the simple reality is that, again, you all represent the 1% well-informed minority of the law school admissions pool. These mistakes happen all of the time and it saddens me that you guys are all so abrasive about it. All I'm saying is: not everyone has 3,000 posts on this website and finely-tunes every part of their application and process with every possible piece of advice they can get by scouring the thousands of posts here. It's quite the contrary: being a lawyer is something they want to do, they apply to a bunch of schools in their numerical range, they field any scholarship offers, then they figure out which matches their lifestyle and career goals given the information provided by the schools, their friends, and lawyers they might know. I don't think that's something so ridiculous.


If this guy had done half of what you assume he's done, he wouldn't be in this sorry predicament. Doesn't take talking to too many lawyers to figure out how Vermont grads fare in NYC.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue May 12, 2009 2:15 pm

Market saturation is a huge factor. I'll be at Fordham in the Fall, which is not a TTT, except to certain T14 or bust types, and even they usually acknowledge that the school is solid.

I think I'll be able to find a job in NYC, but I'm not expecting to be able to pick and choose. Whatever I get that isn't doc review, I'll take. If I had not been admitted to Fordham (or Cardozo with $$$), I would likely have left New York and tried my luck in a smaller market. Not a reflection on me or my work ethic, just an acknowledgment that NYC is a tough market to break into.

I don't fault the OP for not knowing things I would not have known without TLS and my local bookstore. I do feel sorry for him, but the "people in glass houses" thing prevents me from throwing stones.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby ResIpsaLoquitur » Tue May 12, 2009 2:23 pm

OS, Fordham is love lol.

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rayiner
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby rayiner » Tue May 12, 2009 2:24 pm

Considering the cost and commitment necessary for law school I would say that trusting schools and uninformed friends IS ridiculous.


If I had listened to my school and friends, I would be attending Georgia State next year...

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sentinal5656
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby sentinal5656 » Tue May 12, 2009 2:33 pm

srb wrote:
ihateusnews wrote:Still I would've thought employers would be more interested in me than someone at the bottom of the class at Touro. Touro is lower tier 4. Vermont is upper tier 3.

Half the time, at my part-time job for a solo, I don't even work at the law firm. He owns a pizza place below the office, so I work there sometimes too.


Flame.

And the guy from Touro probably doesn't have a job either. Not that I've ever heard of Touro...



Don Self - the character on prison break went to touro law school.......




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