Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

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Helmholtz
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Helmholtz » Thu May 21, 2009 10:25 pm

A'nold wrote:
jrock12 wrote:horrible UG + TTT = no job = no surprise

thank you for wasting time


A lot of you on this thread have got to be even more retarded than the op. No, actually, graduating from Vermont (an apparent ttt) did not screw him. The fact that he tried to break into the hardest legal market on planet earth where even the bottom 70% at Brooklyn Law have a hard time finding a job is the problem. HTH elitist bastards.


Almost any law school coupled with unrealistic expectations has the likelihood of going sour.

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A'nold
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby A'nold » Fri May 22, 2009 5:58 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
A'nold wrote:
jrock12 wrote:horrible UG + TTT = no job = no surprise

thank you for wasting time


A lot of you on this thread have got to be even more retarded than the op. No, actually, graduating from Vermont (an apparent ttt) did not screw him. The fact that he tried to break into the hardest legal market on planet earth where even the bottom 70% at Brooklyn Law have a hard time finding a job is the problem. HTH elitist bastards.


Almost any law school coupled with unrealistic expectations has the likelihood of going sour.



Yep. And btw- lol at me posting a serious comment after reading one page of a very old thread that I thought was recent. :oops:

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RVP11
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby RVP11 » Fri May 22, 2009 6:11 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
A'nold wrote:
jrock12 wrote:horrible UG + TTT = no job = no surprise

thank you for wasting time


A lot of you on this thread have got to be even more retarded than the op. No, actually, graduating from Vermont (an apparent ttt) did not screw him. The fact that he tried to break into the hardest legal market on planet earth where even the bottom 70% at Brooklyn Law have a hard time finding a job is the problem. HTH elitist bastards.


Almost any law school coupled with unrealistic expectations has the likelihood of going sour.


Phuk you. I will go to UVA and I define failure as anything short of WLRK partner or SCOTUS justice.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri May 22, 2009 6:18 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
A'nold wrote:
jrock12 wrote:horrible UG + TTT = no job = no surprise

thank you for wasting time


A lot of you on this thread have got to be even more retarded than the op. No, actually, graduating from Vermont (an apparent ttt) did not screw him. The fact that he tried to break into the hardest legal market on planet earth where even the bottom 70% at Brooklyn Law have a hard time finding a job is the problem. HTH elitist bastards.


Almost any law school coupled with unrealistic expectations has the likelihood of going sour.


Phuk you. I will go to UVA and I define failure as anything short of WLRK partner or SCOTUS justice.

You'd work at an FM station in Greenville Mississippi?

Well, if SCOTUS doesn't work out, good luck with that.

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invictus
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby invictus » Sat May 23, 2009 1:26 am

Image

The Environment
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby The Environment » Sun May 31, 2009 10:33 pm

Important question for OP. If you read this please respond.

What type of legal job were you looking for, and what specialization did you focus on while at Vermont!??! I need to know ASAP. thanks.

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James Bond
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby James Bond » Sun May 31, 2009 11:22 pm

rayiner wrote: Engineering is a mistake too LXW! Engineering + JD -> biggest mistake akin to porking a 300 lb land-whale!

Don't you see? We should've become HVAC technicians!


Except in Hogtober competitions, then you win!

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby SmurfyRey » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:42 am

rayiner wrote:
Considering the cost and commitment necessary for law school I would say that trusting schools and uninformed friends IS ridiculous.


If I had listened to my school and friends, I would be attending Georgia State next year...


HA...If I had listened to my friends, I would be debt-free at Mercer right now, or in-state at UGA. Instead, I will be borrowing my life away at GMU!

Chicago, UVA, Northwestern, and Emory didn't want me, and I didn't want to be stuck in Atlanta for the rest of my life, so unlike OP's brash decisions, I am going to a school in a target region (along with some other factors) where I will be happy

And I made these decisions before I joined the TLS forums...although the centralized info was helpful, I made my own choices like a big boy, so with a little footwork, anyone can make good decisions, so criticize on members of TLS!

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby The Environment » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:15 am

You know... as I read this entire post I find myself thankful for having stumbled upon this at the most opportune time. I am now obviously reconsidering my options of attending VLS.

While it is true that I only have an interest in Environmental Law, and have absolutely no desire to work anywhere near big law making upwards of 100k anytime soon, it is completely unrealistic for me to accumulate a debt:income ratio beyond the worst case scenario graduating from VLS. (Min. Wage)

Yet it is also true that many graduates from VLS acquire national positions. Many environmental organizations seek VLS graduates to fill their firms, and advocacy groups. However, you must place in the top 5% of your class. Of course a T14 graduate who focused on Env. Law will always have an advantage.

However, many of you on TLS are completely out of touch with the Env. Law sector. The truth is, Env. Law is one of the fastest growing legal markets in the world due to the current political climate surrounding environmental issues. The vast majority of T14 and even TT students have aspirations of becoming highly payed big shot attorneys. This is fine. We all know the average % of law graduates entering the PI sector is roughly 2%. And withing that 2% those with the best educations tend to aspire for the most prominent and highest paid PI jobs. Fortunately, Env. Law is neither prominent nor lucrative and for some reason has managed to stay underneath the radar of most T14 law graduates. And even while a hanful of T14 schools have T10 Env. Law programs, very very very few join them. And those few are not enough to meet the demand for Env. Lawers.

The demand for Env. Law, Env. Scientists, Env. Specialist, Env. Managers, etc is increasing at a rate of 10% - 25% a year. Which means that a person who goes to TTT VLS for Env. Law, and attends Env. Law clinics, and does well has a great chance at scoring a national position for Env. related legal work (Law, Justice, Legislation, Activism, Advocacy, NPO and NGO contracts)

Boston, Boulder, Denver, DC, Pheonix, Sacramento, Portland, and Tampa EPA/WMD/SC/WWF/DU/Local Env. Law Firms love VLS grads. (only env.) Not enough Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and GULC graduates to fill up all the spots... especially at $44K - $55K starting salary.

Having said all this I am now confident that I will only be attending VLS if I get 90% tuition scholly. I know how much I can make upon graduation and have no aspirations of anything higher. I am completely satisfied working in Boston, or any of the cities I mentioned. If I fail to nab the big scholly, I will simply take the LSAT in December in an attempt to succesfully match my average diagnostic score of 170. If I suceed I will obviously apply to what I consider the best school for my desired career. In my case it is GULC, VLS, Columbia, or Yale.

I also think it is important to remind TLS users when giving advice to people choosing between #1 n/$$ vs #8 w/$$$ to consider their career goals. I would never accept Yale with no money over GULC with half scholly, simply because I am aware that my profession of choice is low paying, therby making my debt:income ratio ridiculously high.

In response to the OP....... If you weren't focusing on Env. Law while at VLS, and/or refused to work Env. related jobs in NYC, Boston, Penn, NJ, etc. then you messed up man. This very instant NJ DEP, USFS, and a couple of local environmental groups are hiring. While it might not be legal work, some of it is management work for advocacy... something that a VLS grad should have studied while there if they focused on Env. Law.

To all the TLS users, I am glad I stumbled upon this forum. I did so while deciding which school to go to. I wish I had found it 6 months ago and saved myself the agony of waiting awholenother year to start law school. But I am content with all the information I have received from reading the posts. Also, don't take offense to pointing out your lack of knowledge revolving around env. law, it's just not your thing and that's cool. I figure once I start my 1L and finally graduate I can probably be the Env. law guy, but until then I am happy trolling the forum.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:18 am

broken_images

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dresden doll
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:21 am

The Environment wrote:
I would never accept Yale with no money over GULC with half scholly, simply because I am aware that my profession of choice is low paying, therby making my debt:income ratio ridiculously high.


I was kinda with you up until that point.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:26 am

The Environment wrote:However, many of you on TLS are completely out of touch with the Env. Law sector. The truth is, Env. Law is one of the fastest growing legal markets in the world due to the current political climate surrounding environmental issues. The vast majority of T14 and even TT students have aspirations of becoming highly payed big shot attorneys. This is fine. We all know the average % of law graduates entering the PI sector is roughly 2%. And withing that 2% those with the best educations tend to aspire for the most prominent and highest paid PI jobs. Fortunately, Env. Law is neither prominent nor lucrative and for some reason has managed to stay underneath the radar of most T14 law graduates. And even while a hanful of T14 schools have T10 Env. Law programs, very very very few join them. And those few are not enough to meet the demand for Env. Lawers.

Answered own question in same sentence.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby The Environment » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:56 am

dresden doll wrote:
The Environment wrote:
I would never accept Yale with no money over GULC with half scholly, simply because I am aware that my profession of choice is low paying, therby making my debt:income ratio ridiculously high.


I was kinda with you up until that point.


I really really really would like a good reason as to why? Taking all the aspects of my reasoning into consideration, why does it make sense to incur 120K in debt from a school that will at most increase my starting pay-rate 10%. It is logical to graduate with 60K in debt and have a much easier time living a life then paying your debt. I am with you 100% if you do anything other than PI law upon graduating, but in this case I have to object.

Private Sector
Yale = >100K with much better chances at landing the job in the first place
GULC = >75K

Public Interest
Yale = 55K
GULC = 50K


What good does a Yale Law Degree do me, if I spend the next 15 - 20 years in debt?

And... lets not forget that NPO's, NGO's, and Government can't possibly hope to compete with salaries in the private sector. If they are looking for long term retainment of lawers, they have more to lose from hiring a Yale graduate then a GULC graduate because they are fully aware that a Yale graduate is fully prepped and honed for Big Law. It's lucrative. A lot of employers have a hard time believing a Yale graduate would rather do Cheap PI work then lucrative law. Unless of course they are interested in becoming professors, in which case an employer could easily tell by the types of clinics and specialization the student took.

Remember guys, this only applies to PI work, and more importantly to Env. Law.

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RVP11
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:05 am

Ever heard of LRAPs?

deadatheist
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby deadatheist » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 am

The Environment wrote:What good does a Yale Law Degree do me, if I spend the next 15 - 20 years in debt?


everytime someone asks "where did you go to law school" you'll get the say "yale" ...your --deleted-- when you use it as a pick up line.

half kiiidding.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 am

My thoughts (coming from someone who hasn't done a lot of research in this field):

1) You're assuming all PI work is essentially the same with the biggest difference being minimal deviations in salary.
2) If you're not making a lot of money (it's probably something like less than $60k/yr or so) law schools such as Yale have some kind of loan forgiveness program set up. This might skew your calculations of exactly how much more you would be in debt.

edit: response to The Environment
edited again for grammatical errors
Last edited by Helmholtz on Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

The Environment
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby The Environment » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:09 am

deadatheist wrote:
The Environment wrote:What good does a Yale Law Degree do me, if I spend the next 15 - 20 years in debt?


everytime someone asks "where did you go to law school" you'll get the say "yale" ...your --deleted-- when you use it as a pick up line.

half kiiidding.


See... now that's a good fucking point!

+1

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dresden doll
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:10 am

The Environment wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
The Environment wrote:
I would never accept Yale with no money over GULC with half scholly, simply because I am aware that my profession of choice is low paying, therby making my debt:income ratio ridiculously high.


I was kinda with you up until that point.


I really really really would like a good reason as to why? Taking all the aspects of my reasoning into consideration, why does it make sense to incur 120K in debt from a school that will at most increase my starting pay-rate 10%. It is logical to graduate with 60K in debt and have a much easier time living a life then paying your debt. I am with you 100% if you do anything other than PI law upon graduating, but in this case I have to object.

Private Sector
Yale = >100K with much better chances at landing the job in the first place
GULC = >75K

Public Interest
Yale = 55K
GULC = 50K


What good does a Yale Law Degree do me, if I spend the next 15 - 20 years in debt?

And... lets not forget that NPO's, NGO's, and Government can't possibly hope to compete with salaries in the private sector. If they are looking for long term retainment of lawers, they have more to lose from hiring a Yale graduate then a GULC graduate because they are fully aware that a Yale graduate is fully prepped and honed for Big Law. It's lucrative. A lot of employers have a hard time believing a Yale graduate would rather do Cheap PI work then lucrative law. Unless of course they are interested in becoming professors, in which case an employer could easily tell by the types of clinics and specialization the student took.

Remember guys, this only applies to PI work, and more importantly to Env. Law.



Doesn't matter. You should feel particularly compelled, in fact, to go to the highest ranked school possible if PI is what you're after. Yale's LRAP program smokes GULC 's. And chances of landing a prestigious, nice gig would be exponentially better at YLS as well. But, hey, suit yourself.

The Environment
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby The Environment » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:20 am

Helmholtz wrote:My thoughts (coming from someone who hasn't done a lot of research in this field):

1) You're assuming all PI work is essentially the same with the biggest difference being minimal deviations in salary.
2) If you're not making a lot of money (it's probably something like less than $60k/yr or so) law schools such as Yale have some kind of loan forgiveness program set up. This might skew your calculations of exactly how much more you would be in debt.

edit: response to The Environment
edited again for grammatical errors


yea you got a point. The COAP at Yale is amazing. This being the case money should be a non-issue. Yet I can't help but think to myself why is Yale xxx better then GULC if all you want to do is Env. Law, they both have good networks with Yale edging GULC on that one, they both have amazing clinics with GULC edging Yale on that one. The only thing I can come up with is what dedatheist said.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:23 am

The Environment wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:My thoughts (coming from someone who hasn't done a lot of research in this field):

1) You're assuming all PI work is essentially the same with the biggest difference being minimal deviations in salary.
2) If you're not making a lot of money (it's probably something like less than $60k/yr or so) law schools such as Yale have some kind of loan forgiveness program set up. This might skew your calculations of exactly how much more you would be in debt.

edit: response to The Environment
edited again for grammatical errors


yea you got a point. The COAP at Yale is amazing. This being the case money should be a non-issue. Yet I can't help but think to myself why is Yale xxx better then GULC if all you want to do is Env. Law, they both have good networks with Yale edging GULC on that one, they both have amazing clinics with GULC edging Yale on that one. The only thing I can come up with is what dedatheist said.


And superior LRAP. And superior shot at truly prestigious/sweet PI gigs.

But sure, being able to impress laypeople is the only tangible advantage. Makes a whole lot of sense.

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RVP11
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:24 am

Environment, why are we even talking about Yale vs. GULC? I thought you had 3.2/157. This is the equivalent of me talking about which Supreme Court justice I want to clerk for.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:25 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:Environment, why are we even talking about Yale vs. GULC? I thought you had 3.2/157. This is the equivalent of me talking about which Supreme Court justice I want to clerk for.


Wait, what? Sheesh. Well, there goes a waste of my time.

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rayiner
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:51 am

dresden doll wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Environment, why are we even talking about Yale vs. GULC? I thought you had 3.2/157. This is the equivalent of me talking about which Supreme Court justice I want to clerk for.


Wait, what? Sheesh. Well, there goes a waste of my time.


Says the girl with 34 posts/day?

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Spaceman_Stiff » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:00 am

rayiner wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Environment, why are we even talking about Yale vs. GULC? I thought you had 3.2/157. This is the equivalent of me talking about which Supreme Court justice I want to clerk for.


Wait, what? Sheesh. Well, there goes a waste of my time.


Says the girl with 34 posts/day?


She is taking breaks from curing cancer you fool!

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby showNprove » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:32 am

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.




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