Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

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Aeroplane
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:24 pm

rayiner wrote:Marketable real-world skills FTW.

+1 Nothing is ever guaranteed, but in-demand skills, meaningful work experience, and industry contacts make job searching a whole different ballgame.

I will add (though it is out of character for me to say this) that engineers are not the only people in the world who have the above.

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:25 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lxw wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:Shhh. I'm trying to work Rayiner up into a state thinking about his potential debt load and the chance he might somehow miss big law. Obviously Georgetown is the better choice for what he wants.

Oh, I've thought about it. GULC will cost me $150k and the number is frankly freaking me out a bit. And ITE, even lower T14 should be a bit nervous...

That being said, the least amount of money I'll ever make is $70k, so I'll be able to pay off my LS debt one way or the other. Real-world marketable skills FTW.

I'd think twice before assuming you'd get hired as an engineer after earning a JD!


I have an open job offer at a successful startup that will allow me to reenter engineering after I flame out of GULC.


Just leave the JD off of your resume and tell people you went on a 1-3 year sabbatical.

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:26 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:Marketable real-world skills FTW.

+1 Nothing is ever guaranteed, but in-demand skills, meaningful work experience, and industry contacts make job searching a whole different ballgame.

I will add (though it is out of character for me to say this) that engineers are not the only people in the world who have the above.


True. As I found out last night in bed, Cleareyes' mom has some SERIOUS real-world, marketable skills and she's not an engineer.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:26 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:Marketable real-world skills FTW.

+1 Nothing is ever guaranteed, but in-demand skills, meaningful work experience, and industry contacts make job searching a whole different ballgame.

I will add (though it is out of character for me to say this) that engineers are not the only people in the world who have the above.


True. As I found out last night in bed, Cleareyes' mom has some SERIOUS real-world, marketable skills and she's not an engineer.


HVAC technician?

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Cleareyes
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Cleareyes » Tue May 12, 2009 5:29 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:Marketable real-world skills FTW.

+1 Nothing is ever guaranteed, but in-demand skills, meaningful work experience, and industry contacts make job searching a whole different ballgame.

I will add (though it is out of character for me to say this) that engineers are not the only people in the world who have the above.


True. As I found out last night in bed, Cleareyes' mom has some SERIOUS real-world, marketable skills and she's not an engineer.


Wish I could say the same about your mom. That was 25 cents better spent on a pack of gum.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby ZakD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:30 pm

This just got classy the way only TLS does. :roll:

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rayiner
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby rayiner » Tue May 12, 2009 5:34 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:Marketable real-world skills FTW.

+1 Nothing is ever guaranteed, but in-demand skills, meaningful work experience, and industry contacts make job searching a whole different ballgame.

I will add (though it is out of character for me to say this) that engineers are not the only people in the world who have the above.


I was going to say "well, somebody needs to give the BJs", but CE2JD beat me to it, dammit. :mrgreen:

Cue Dresden.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:36 pm

rayiner wrote:
Cue Dresden.


For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:36 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Cue Dresden.


For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.


You don't need to claim it. It should be assumed by every rational human being.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue May 12, 2009 5:37 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:Cue Dresden.

For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.

You don't need to claim it. It should be assumed by every rational human being.

Assumptions are irrational.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:38 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Cue Dresden.


For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.


You don't need to claim it. It should be assumed by every rational human being.


Being a mere IE, I have a soft spot for the Muggles.

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:38 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Cue Dresden.


For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.


You don't need to claim it. It should be assumed by every rational human being.


Being a mere IE, I have a soft spot for the Muggles.


::SCOFF::

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Drake014 » Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Olto wrote:Again, you all represent maybe 1% of the law school 0Ls. You can reinforce each other with your beliefs and often come to the same conclusions because you all read the same material on this site. Literally every single 0L I have talked to has NOT heard about TLS or LSD.org. Out of the ~dozen 1Ls that I have mentioned TLS to, maybe 2 have acknowledged that they know it. Most people do their own research in their own ways, as described above. Yes, I tell 0Ls to avoid regional schools if they want to practice in a different area, but not everyone does the same and the information that is out there doesn't point conclusively in one direction or the other.

So you guys can all indict the average 0L for not wanting to listen to your advice, but I find that generally the opinions promulgated on this site, while well-informed and strongly reasoned, are not representative of the information elsewhere available and also often run counter to what else they might have heard from friends, alums of schools, etc. Again, not everyone has 1500 posts on ANY message board; the internet isn't the end-all-be-all to most of us. There's a lot of information out there and a lot of people are apprehensive of it. Kudos to you for buying your shoes based on reviews - I, too, check gamespot.com for video game reviews. But I also don't go to the message boards there to hear everyone calling each other "n00bs" because they have less Xbox 360 Achievement points.


Videogames don't matter. Law schools do. And this guy is not getting the l0l n00b for going to Vermont. He's getting the L0l N00b because he went to Vermont and is complaining that the only good job offers he got were IN VERMONT. That's like complaining that the only thing your local pizza place does well is pizza.

At the point where he decided to ignore the Vermont job offers in the hopes of breaking into the TOUGHEST LEGAL MARKET IN THE COUNTRY he was a 2L or 3L. He should have done some research into this stuff at some point, right? Did he just show up in Manhattan with his JD and a "hire me" sandwich board?

Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?


Cleareyes, I don't think I've ever seen you so be so heartless. Out of catnip?

This guy was uninformed. Intelligence and wisdom don't go hand and hand. Honestly speaking, a year or less ago I didn't know the difference between tier 1 and TTT schools. I'm very internet savvy. The vast majority of people aren't nearly as internet savvy as me or you. There are plenty of intelligent people who lack direction and don't know how to get direction. They don't know which sources of information to trust and which ones not to. You do from your own very fortunate upbringing. As do most top 10 law school students. What you may think is a simple matter of research is actually one of the skills that make you one of the top law school students.

Personally, I'm glad that there are people like the OP. Makes for less competition. Despite that, I'll still do everything I can to help people who are intelligent, but unwise. I don't mind some competition. Consequently, I do feel sorry for him. He clearly was not gifted/trained with abilities that would have helped him to live up to his full potential (judging by how well he did in school, I'd say his potential goes past pizza delivery). To prevent more people from ending up like him, I hope law schools advisors and other sources of information become better at advising students.

Law school can be a terrible choice, so people should be better educated on how to make the right choices.

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rayiner
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby rayiner » Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Cue Dresden.


For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.


You don't need to claim it. It should be assumed by every rational human being.


Being a mere IE, I have a soft spot for the Muggles.


I lol'ed in my office.

<3

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Lxw wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:Cue Dresden.

For Dresden: let the record show I did NOT claim absolute engineering superiority ITT.

You don't need to claim it. It should be assumed by every rational human being.

Assumptions are irrational.


spoken like a true patent examiner

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 pm

CE2JD wrote:::SCOFF::

:oops:

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Drake014 wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Olto wrote:Again, you all represent maybe 1% of the law school 0Ls. You can reinforce each other with your beliefs and often come to the same conclusions because you all read the same material on this site. Literally every single 0L I have talked to has NOT heard about TLS or LSD.org. Out of the ~dozen 1Ls that I have mentioned TLS to, maybe 2 have acknowledged that they know it. Most people do their own research in their own ways, as described above. Yes, I tell 0Ls to avoid regional schools if they want to practice in a different area, but not everyone does the same and the information that is out there doesn't point conclusively in one direction or the other.

So you guys can all indict the average 0L for not wanting to listen to your advice, but I find that generally the opinions promulgated on this site, while well-informed and strongly reasoned, are not representative of the information elsewhere available and also often run counter to what else they might have heard from friends, alums of schools, etc. Again, not everyone has 1500 posts on ANY message board; the internet isn't the end-all-be-all to most of us. There's a lot of information out there and a lot of people are apprehensive of it. Kudos to you for buying your shoes based on reviews - I, too, check gamespot.com for video game reviews. But I also don't go to the message boards there to hear everyone calling each other "n00bs" because they have less Xbox 360 Achievement points.


Videogames don't matter. Law schools do. And this guy is not getting the l0l n00b for going to Vermont. He's getting the L0l N00b because he went to Vermont and is complaining that the only good job offers he got were IN VERMONT. That's like complaining that the only thing your local pizza place does well is pizza.

At the point where he decided to ignore the Vermont job offers in the hopes of breaking into the TOUGHEST LEGAL MARKET IN THE COUNTRY he was a 2L or 3L. He should have done some research into this stuff at some point, right? Did he just show up in Manhattan with his JD and a "hire me" sandwich board?

Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?


Cleareyes, I don't think I've ever seen you so be so heartless. Out of catnip?

This guy was uninformed. Intelligence and wisdom don't go hand and hand. Honestly speaking, a year or less ago I didn't know the difference between tier 1 and TTT schools. I'm very internet savvy. The vast majority of people aren't nearly as internet savvy as me or you. There are plenty of intelligent people who lack direction and don't know how to get direction. They don't know which sources of information to trust and which ones not to. You do from your own very fortunate upbringing. As do most top 10 law school students. What you may think is a simple matter of research is actually one of the skills that make you one of the top law school students.

Personally, I'm glad that there are people like the OP. Makes for less competition. Despite that, I'll still do everything I can to help people who are intelligent, but unwise. I don't mind some competition. Consequently, I do feel sorry for him. He clearly was not gifted/trained with abilities that would have helped him to live up to his full potential (judging by how well he did in school, I'd say his potential goes past pizza delivery). To prevent more people from ending up like him, I hope law schools advisors and other sources of information become better at advising students.

Law school can be a terrible choice, so people should be better educated on how to make the right choices.


TLDR

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:40 pm

rayiner wrote:
I lol'ed in my office.

<3


If that made you lol, have you seen Fourier transform cat? Because that is awesome.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby rayiner » Tue May 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
rayiner wrote:
I lol'ed in my office.

<3


If that made you lol, have you seen Fourier transform cat? Because that is awesome.


Linkz!

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 12, 2009 5:43 pm

Image

Well - I think it's awesome anyway.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Drake014 » Tue May 12, 2009 5:44 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Olto wrote:Again, you all represent maybe 1% of the law school 0Ls. You can reinforce each other with your beliefs and often come to the same conclusions because you all read the same material on this site. Literally every single 0L I have talked to has NOT heard about TLS or LSD.org. Out of the ~dozen 1Ls that I have mentioned TLS to, maybe 2 have acknowledged that they know it. Most people do their own research in their own ways, as described above. Yes, I tell 0Ls to avoid regional schools if they want to practice in a different area, but not everyone does the same and the information that is out there doesn't point conclusively in one direction or the other.

So you guys can all indict the average 0L for not wanting to listen to your advice, but I find that generally the opinions promulgated on this site, while well-informed and strongly reasoned, are not representative of the information elsewhere available and also often run counter to what else they might have heard from friends, alums of schools, etc. Again, not everyone has 1500 posts on ANY message board; the internet isn't the end-all-be-all to most of us. There's a lot of information out there and a lot of people are apprehensive of it. Kudos to you for buying your shoes based on reviews - I, too, check gamespot.com for video game reviews. But I also don't go to the message boards there to hear everyone calling each other "n00bs" because they have less Xbox 360 Achievement points.


Videogames don't matter. Law schools do. And this guy is not getting the l0l n00b for going to Vermont. He's getting the L0l N00b because he went to Vermont and is complaining that the only good job offers he got were IN VERMONT. That's like complaining that the only thing your local pizza place does well is pizza.

At the point where he decided to ignore the Vermont job offers in the hopes of breaking into the TOUGHEST LEGAL MARKET IN THE COUNTRY he was a 2L or 3L. He should have done some research into this stuff at some point, right? Did he just show up in Manhattan with his JD and a "hire me" sandwich board?

Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?


Cleareyes, I don't think I've ever seen you so be so heartless. Out of catnip?

This guy was uninformed. Intelligence and wisdom don't go hand and hand. Honestly speaking, a year or less ago I didn't know the difference between tier 1 and TTT schools. I'm very internet savvy. The vast majority of people aren't nearly as internet savvy as me or you. There are plenty of intelligent people who lack direction and don't know how to get direction. They don't know which sources of information to trust and which ones not to. You do from your own very fortunate upbringing. As do most top 10 law school students. What you may think is a simple matter of research is actually one of the skills that make you one of the top law school students.

Personally, I'm glad that there are people like the OP. Makes for less competition. Despite that, I'll still do everything I can to help people who are intelligent, but unwise. I don't mind some competition. Consequently, I do feel sorry for him. He clearly was not gifted/trained with abilities that would have helped him to live up to his full potential (judging by how well he did in school, I'd say his potential goes past pizza delivery). To prevent more people from ending up like him, I hope law schools advisors and other sources of information become better at advising students.

Law school can be a terrible choice, so people should be better educated on how to make the right choices.


TLDR


You bothered writing TLDR on a comment that was addressed to someone else?

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:45 pm

Drake014 wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Videogames don't matter. Law schools do. And this guy is not getting the l0l n00b for going to Vermont. He's getting the L0l N00b because he went to Vermont and is complaining that the only good job offers he got were IN VERMONT. That's like complaining that the only thing your local pizza place does well is pizza.

At the point where he decided to ignore the Vermont job offers in the hopes of breaking into the TOUGHEST LEGAL MARKET IN THE COUNTRY he was a 2L or 3L. He should have done some research into this stuff at some point, right? Did he just show up in Manhattan with his JD and a "hire me" sandwich board?

Vermont did what regional schools are supposed to. They prepared him for a successful career in that particular region. His complaint seems to be that they don't have the reach of a University of Michigan, but any research should have told him that. Are you really condoning going about your professional life in such a haphazard fashion?


Cleareyes, I don't think I've ever seen you so be so heartless. Out of catnip?

This guy was uninformed. Intelligence and wisdom don't go hand and hand. Honestly speaking, a year or less ago I didn't know the difference between tier 1 and TTT schools. I'm very internet savvy. The vast majority of people aren't nearly as internet savvy as me or you. There are plenty of intelligent people who lack direction and don't know how to get direction. They don't know which sources of information to trust and which ones not to. You do from your own very fortunate upbringing. As do most top 10 law school students. What you may think is a simple matter of research is actually one of the skills that make you one of the top law school students.

Personally, I'm glad that there are people like the OP. Makes for less competition. Despite that, I'll still do everything I can to help people who are intelligent, but unwise. I don't mind some competition. Consequently, I do feel sorry for him. He clearly was not gifted/trained with abilities that would have helped him to live up to his full potential (judging by how well he did in school, I'd say his potential goes past pizza delivery). To prevent more people from ending up like him, I hope law schools advisors and other sources of information become better at advising students.

Law school can be a terrible choice, so people should be better educated on how to make the right choices.


TLDR


You bothered writing TLDR on a comment that was addressed to someone else?


How would I know it's addressed to someone else if I didn't read it?

dumbass

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CE2JD
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby CE2JD » Tue May 12, 2009 5:46 pm

Aeroplane wrote:Image

Well - I think it's awesome anyway.


I peed myself laughing.

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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Drake014 » Tue May 12, 2009 5:48 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Drake014 wrote:Cleareyes, I don't think I've ever seen you so be so heartless. Out of catnip?

This guy was uninformed. Intelligence and wisdom don't go hand and hand. Honestly speaking, a year or less ago I didn't know the difference between tier 1 and TTT schools. I'm very internet savvy. The vast majority of people aren't nearly as internet savvy as me or you. There are plenty of intelligent people who lack direction and don't know how to get direction. They don't know which sources of information to trust and which ones not to. You do from your own very fortunate upbringing. As do most top 10 law school students. What you may think is a simple matter of research is actually one of the skills that make you one of the top law school students.

Personally, I'm glad that there are people like the OP. Makes for less competition. Despite that, I'll still do everything I can to help people who are intelligent, but unwise. I don't mind some competition. Consequently, I do feel sorry for him. He clearly was not gifted/trained with abilities that would have helped him to live up to his full potential (judging by how well he did in school, I'd say his potential goes past pizza delivery). To prevent more people from ending up like him, I hope law schools advisors and other sources of information become better at advising students.

Law school can be a terrible choice, so people should be better educated on how to make the right choices.


TLDR


You bothered writing TLDR on a comment that was addressed to someone else?


How would I know it's addressed to someone else if I didn't read it?

dumbass


You could look at the heading, dumbass... or read the very first word "Cleareyes,". Taking the time to read the heading or first word would have been less time than writing TLDR.
Last edited by Drake014 on Tue May 12, 2009 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Reasonable_Man is Right Law School Can be a Terrible Choice

Postby Cleareyes » Tue May 12, 2009 5:49 pm

Drake014 wrote:
Cleareyes, I don't think I've ever seen you so be so heartless. Out of catnip?

This guy was uninformed. Intelligence and wisdom don't go hand and hand. Honestly speaking, a year or less ago I didn't know the difference between tier 1 and TTT schools. I'm very internet savvy. The vast majority of people aren't nearly as internet savvy as me or you. There are plenty of intelligent people who lack direction and don't know how to get direction. They don't know which sources of information to trust and which ones not to. You do from your own very fortunate upbringing. As do most top 10 law school students. What you may think is a simple matter of research is actually one of the skills that make you one of the top law school students.

Personally, I'm glad that there are people like the OP. Makes for less competition. Despite that, I'll still do everything I can to help people who are intelligent, but unwise. I don't mind some competition. Consequently, I do feel sorry for him. He clearly was not gifted/trained with abilities that would have helped him to live up to his full potential (judging by how well he did in school, I'd say his potential goes past pizza delivery). To prevent more people from ending up like him, I hope law schools advisors and other sources of information become better at advising students.

Law school can be a terrible choice, so people should be better educated on how to make the right choices.


I'm not heartless. I'm just responding to the way the information was presented. The thing that you seem to be conveniently is that going to Vermont WASN'T a mistake for him. It was his complete shrugging off of OCI and decision to return to New York without a job instead of staying in Vermont where there were jobs lined up for him. At that point he was a 3L and should have known. I mean, yeah, it sucks that he can't get a job where he wants one, but he acts like he's entitled to an NYC law job. He's not. I'm not. Nobody is.

I'm not seeing where he was mislead or mistreated here. I have sympathy for him as a human being who is struggling, sure, it's rough. I wish him well I wish him success. But this post isn't about the legal profession. It's about unrealistic expectations in general. Just as you can't just take your screenplay and go to L.A. and expect to get a movie made, you can't just move to NY with a degree from a no name school and expect to get a decent law job. There are tens of thousands of unemployed writers in L.A. and probably close to as many underemployed lawyers in NYC. Stay in Vermont. Prosper. Wait for your girlfriend or find a new girlfriend or if she's worth being a waiter at iHop for then wait tables at iHop but don't blame your school for being what it is.




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