TFA...wait a sec.....

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worldtraveler
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:20 am

Kohinoor wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:In other words...TFA members teach in bad conditions. Much like teachers that teach in tough conditions.


Have you done something amazing that you're comparing TFA with or are you just being dismissive to provoke people?


When did I say anything about me?

The OP's point was asking about how TFA is more impressive than other significant service experiences, or different than what another teacher in the same circumstances does. I haven't seen anybody answer that question yet.

So if two teachers apply, both of whom teach at a lower income school in an inner city, yet one is in TFA and one is just a teacher, should the TFA person get a boost?

Other than the name, there isn't really a difference in what they do. I think it's the same as someone in the PeaceCorps vs. someone who does significant, intense volunteer experience in another country. The advantage the PeaceCorps has is the name recognition, not that they are doing anything necessarily more difficult or important.

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worldtraveler
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:21 am

Kohinoor wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Not to dismiss the hard work that TFA members do...but the stuff some other posters described really just described teachers in general. All teachers (well, unless they're incredibly lazy) spend extra time grading, planning and just doing stuff for their job outside of working hours.
I think TFA is pretty impressive, but I also don't think it's any more amazing than people who teach in lower income areas in general. If someone is teaching in an inner city, it doesn't matter whether they are in TFA or not: the job is damn hard and stressful.

I think the OP is asking why TFA gets extra benefits and other teachers don't? I'm pretty sure he grasps what TFA is.

I don't really see a difference in the selflessness displayed by TFA members and any other person that chooses to teach in the same circumstances.


TFA members usually pay a greater opportunity cost to teach in the inner city.


Huh? How?

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wiscgrl03
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:23 am

worldtraveler wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Not to dismiss the hard work that TFA members do...but the stuff some other posters described really just described teachers in general. All teachers (well, unless they're incredibly lazy) spend extra time grading, planning and just doing stuff for their job outside of working hours.
I think TFA is pretty impressive, but I also don't think it's any more amazing than people who teach in lower income areas in general. If someone is teaching in an inner city, it doesn't matter whether they are in TFA or not: the job is damn hard and stressful.

I think the OP is asking why TFA gets extra benefits and other teachers don't? I'm pretty sure he grasps what TFA is.

I don't really see a difference in the selflessness displayed by TFA members and any other person that chooses to teach in the same circumstances.


TFA members usually pay a greater opportunity cost to teach in the inner city.


Huh? How?



Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.

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worldtraveler
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:27 am

wiscgrl03 wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Not to dismiss the hard work that TFA members do...but the stuff some other posters described really just described teachers in general. All teachers (well, unless they're incredibly lazy) spend extra time grading, planning and just doing stuff for their job outside of working hours.
I think TFA is pretty impressive, but I also don't think it's any more amazing than people who teach in lower income areas in general. If someone is teaching in an inner city, it doesn't matter whether they are in TFA or not: the job is damn hard and stressful.

I think the OP is asking why TFA gets extra benefits and other teachers don't? I'm pretty sure he grasps what TFA is.

I don't really see a difference in the selflessness displayed by TFA members and any other person that chooses to teach in the same circumstances.


TFA members usually pay a greater opportunity cost to teach in the inner city.


Huh? How?



Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.


Most teachers could make more money doing something else if they chose to. You don't think people with math and science degrees could have had a more lucrative degree had they chosen to do something besides teach?

Why does it even matter what people are giving up? If the point is about service, why get into a pissing match about "OMG I could have made so much more money but I'm important because I chose to teach?"

chris888777
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby chris888777 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:32 am

I taught in an inner-city school in a very tough neighborhood. I cannot imagine a more difficult, yet rewarding profession. Witnessing the shit that goes on in those schools is what prompted me to want to go to law school. I have nothing but the uptmost respect for anyone who decides to apply for TFA.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:36 am

I think the OP is asking why TFA gets extra benefits and other teachers don't? I'm pretty sure he grasps what TFA is.

I don't really see a difference in the selflessness displayed by TFA members and any other person that chooses to teach in the same circumstances.[/quote]

TFA members usually pay a greater opportunity cost to teach in the inner city.[/quote]

Huh? How?[/quote]


Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.[/quote]

Most teachers could make more money doing something else if they chose to. You don't think people with math and science degrees could have had a more lucrative degree had they chosen to do something besides teach?

Why does it even matter what people are giving up? If the point is about service, why get into a pissing match about "OMG I could have made so much more money but I'm important because I chose to teach?"[/quote]

I never said it was a valid reason, but you could not understand oppurtunity cost so I gave you an example. Most teachers that I know don't have math and science degrees they hold degrees in teaching mathematics or science which there is a very huge difference. The science teachers at our school would never be able to go into the science field.

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badfish
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:36 am

wiscgrl03 wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Not to dismiss the hard work that TFA members do...but the stuff some other posters described really just described teachers in general. All teachers (well, unless they're incredibly lazy) spend extra time grading, planning and just doing stuff for their job outside of working hours.
I think TFA is pretty impressive, but I also don't think it's any more amazing than people who teach in lower income areas in general. If someone is teaching in an inner city, it doesn't matter whether they are in TFA or not: the job is damn hard and stressful.

I think the OP is asking why TFA gets extra benefits and other teachers don't? I'm pretty sure he grasps what TFA is.

I don't really see a difference in the selflessness displayed by TFA members and any other person that chooses to teach in the same circumstances.


TFA members usually pay a greater opportunity cost to teach in the inner city.


Huh? How?


Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.


Yes, but they aren't looking to do the job for the next 30 years, like other teachers are. Opportunity Cost has to take into account impact on future earnings as well. If TFA is giving people these ridiculous soft factors and the ability to put themselves in a position to make more money than they could have without the TFA experience, the opportunity cost argument should not be made. Plus, you're making a pretty big assumption about the earning power of TFA people, especially in this economic climate I'm not sure if that assumption is warranted.

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badfish
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:40 am

Plus the argument that TFA teachers are > than regular teachers which is why TFA is looked upon more positively than teaching in the same situations outside of TFA is ridiculous. Just because something is true for a group on the average (a statistic which I still haven't seen proof of) doesn't mean it is true for everyone in the group as a whole.

It is possible that a teacher outside of TFA is more effective with his/her students than a teacher inside of TFA, even though the averages split the other way.

Since law school admissions are an individualistic process, the averages shouldn't be all that important.

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badfish
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:42 am

That said I have many friends who are TFA teachers and I understand how difficult it is. They deserve the ridiculous softs. Other teachers who teach in similar situations do as well. That's what I think WT is getting at, and I tend to agree.

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wiscgrl03
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:42 am

[quote

Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.[/quote]

Yes, but they aren't looking to do the job for the next 30 years, like other teachers are. Opportunity Cost has to take into account impact on future earnings as well. If TFA is giving people these ridiculous soft factors and the ability to put themselves in a position to make more money than they could have without the TFA experience, the opportunity cost argument should not be made. Plus, you're making a pretty big assumption about the earning power of TFA people, especially in this economic climate I'm not sure if that assumption is warranted.[/quote]


Roughly 1/3 of TFA corp members stay in teaching, so many of them are looking to stay in it for 30 years. I could easily find a job making more than I do now at a non-profit even. A lot of TFA corps member at least in my region hold math and science degrees and can find jobs in the private sector making considerably more.
Not all TFA teachers are looking to go to law school and taking advantage of that boost.
Lastly, while this does not apply to me, every single TFA member in my corps who is applying to law school would not need a bump to get into a T14 law school.

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worldtraveler
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:45 am

wiscgrl03 wrote:[quote

Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.


Yes, but they aren't looking to do the job for the next 30 years, like other teachers are. Opportunity Cost has to take into account impact on future earnings as well. If TFA is giving people these ridiculous soft factors and the ability to put themselves in a position to make more money than they could have without the TFA experience, the opportunity cost argument should not be made. Plus, you're making a pretty big assumption about the earning power of TFA people, especially in this economic climate I'm not sure if that assumption is warranted.[/quote]


Roughly 1/3 of TFA corp members stay in teaching, so many of them are looking to stay in it for 30 years. I could easily find a job making more than I do now at non-profit even. A lot of TFA corps member at least in my region hold math and science degrees and can find jobs in the private sector making considerably more.
Not all TFA teachers are looking to go to law school and taking advantage of that boost.
Lastly, while this does not apply to me, every single TFA member in my corps who is applying to law school would not need a bump to get into a T14 law school.[/quote]

Why does it matter that you could make more money elsewhere?

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:48 am

worldtraveler wrote:
wiscgrl03 wrote:[quote

Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.


Yes, but they aren't looking to do the job for the next 30 years, like other teachers are. Opportunity Cost has to take into account impact on future earnings as well. If TFA is giving people these ridiculous soft factors and the ability to put themselves in a position to make more money than they could have without the TFA experience, the opportunity cost argument should not be made. Plus, you're making a pretty big assumption about the earning power of TFA people, especially in this economic climate I'm not sure if that assumption is warranted.



Roughly 1/3 of TFA corp members stay in teaching, so many of them are looking to stay in it for 30 years. I could easily find a job making more than I do now at non-profit even. A lot of TFA corps member at least in my region hold math and science degrees and can find jobs in the private sector making considerably more.
Not all TFA teachers are looking to go to law school and taking advantage of that boost.
Lastly, while this does not apply to me, every single TFA member in my corps who is applying to law school would not need a bump to get into a T14 law school.[/quote]

Why does it matter that you could make more money elsewhere?[/quote]

I was addressing the point about over estimating earning power. I could care less how much money I make, hence a life dedicated to public service.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby sophie316 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:50 am

I feel like other people that taught in tough schools and did similar things to TFA would also get a boost. TFA is just the most well known one, but I would imagine things like NYC teaching fellows also would get a bump. I don't quite understand what the argument in this thread is about..anyone that can teach kids in those kind of situations, be in through TFA or not, is clearly a dedicated and talented individual, and would probably get a bump when applying for law school, non TFA people would just have to take more care in how they presented their experiences so that schools know what they achieved.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:51 am

wiscgrl03 wrote:Roughly 1/3 of TFA corp members stay in teaching, so many of them are looking to stay in it for 30 years.


The fact is the opportunity is there for people who want to spend their 2 years and move on to something better (with the help of the position on their resume) and the vast majority (at least according to your stats) take that opportunity.


wiscgrl03 wrote:I could easily find a job making more than I do now at non-profit even. A lot of TFA corps member at least in my region hold math and science degrees and can find jobs in the private sector making considerably more.


Yes, they could and your argument about opportunity cost int he short run (2 years) is fine, but in the LR your argument fails b/c TFA seems to open doors that your BS alone wouldn't be able to.

wiscgrl03 wrote:Not all TFA teachers are looking to go to law school and taking advantage of that boost.


Not sure how this is relevant to the fact that the boost is there if they wanted it.

wiscgrl03 wrote:Lastly, while this does not apply to me, every single TFA member in my corps who is applying to law school would not need a bump to get into a T14 law school.


Again, not sure how this is relevant. They'd be able to get into A T-14, but it has nothing to do with how high up they can go. That is, unless all TFA members can get into Yale without any significant boost.

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badfish
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:55 am

Basically what I'm saying is, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that they pay a higher opportunity cost and they deserve the boost and then try and downplay the fact that many teachers do it FOR the boost (thus negating the opportunity cost argument) by making a (IMHO) poor argument that 33% decide to stay in teaching.

That STILL means most people do their time and move onto something better (presumably) using the TFA boost to their benefit.

Again, this is all in the context of, TFA deserves the boost, but so do normal teachers who teach in similar situations.
Last edited by badfish on Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:56 am

badfish wrote:
wiscgrl03 wrote:Roughly 1/3 of TFA corp members stay in teaching, so many of them are looking to stay in it for 30 years.


The fact is the opportunity is there for people who want to spend their 2 years and move on to something better (with the help of the position on their resume) and the vast majority (at least according to your stats) take that opportunity.


wiscgrl03 wrote:I could easily find a job making more than I do now at non-profit even. A lot of TFA corps member at least in my region hold math and science degrees and can find jobs in the private sector making considerably more.


Yes, they could and your argument about opportunity cost int he short run (2 years) is fine, but in the LR your argument fails b/c TFA seems to open doors that your BS alone wouldn't be able to.

wiscgrl03 wrote:Not all TFA teachers are looking to go to law school and taking advantage of that boost.


Not sure how this is relevant to the fact that the boost is there if they wanted it.

wiscgrl03 wrote:Lastly, while this does not apply to me, every single TFA member in my corps who is applying to law school would not need a bump to get into a T14 law school.


Again, not sure how this is relevant. They'd be able to get into A T-14, but it has nothing to do with how high up they can go. That is, unless all TFA members can get into Yale without any significant boost.


No they can not, but the TFA person with a 172 is probably not going to get into Yale even with a boost. I think many people over estimate the type of boost you get from TFA. From what I have heard it will at most help you in a tie, and in a tie who should get the boost? The person with TFA or the person who has never done anything significant. I think that is likely the only type of boost you get.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:57 am

worldtraveler wrote:
wiscgrl03 wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:TFA members usually pay a greater opportunity cost to teach in the inner city.


Huh? How?



Most of the teachers you are referencing went to school to be teachers. TFA teachers are people who are giving up much higher paying jobs to teach.


Most teachers could make more money doing something else if they chose to. You don't think people with math and science degrees could have had a more lucrative degree had they chosen to do something besides teach?

Why does it even matter what people are giving up? If the point is about service, why get into a pissing match about "OMG I could have made so much more money but I'm important because I chose to teach?"


Dude. Drop the idealism. A teacher in the second worst school in the city didn't choose between that and being a nuclear physicist. So, no, I don't think someone who only qualified for a job at a terribad school had boundless opportunities before them.

It matters because you were asking what makes TFA volunteers different from teachers. You are what my mother called wrong and strong. Jumping from one argument to another as you lose them and refusing to concede.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:59 am

badfish wrote:Basically what I'm saying is, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that they pay a higher opportunity cost and they deserve the boost and then try and downplay the fact that many teachers do it FOR the boost (thus negating the opportunity cost argument) by making a (IMHO) poor argument that 33% decide to stay in teaching.

That STILL means most people do their time and move onto something better (presumably) using the TFA boost to their benefit.


Why would you not use it to your benifit? You make it sound like they are wrong for using it to help them get a job when they are done or to get into to school. I think that almost anybody uses their experiences and life skills to their advantage when trying to better themselves.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:59 am

wiscgrl03 wrote:No they can not, but the TFA person with a 172 is probably not going to get into Yale even with a boost. I think many people over estimate the type of boost you get from TFA. From what I have heard it will at most help you in a tie, and in a tie who should get the boost? The person with TFA or the person who has never done anything significant. I think that is likely the only type of boost you get.


That's probably true, but you're taking the argument way out of scope. Again, how people score on the LSAT regardless of TFA affiliation is not what is being argued. What I'm trying to say is that TFA deserves no bigger boost than a teacher who teaches in a similar situation. In fact, I'm of the opinion that it deserves a smaller boost b/c most TFA'ers only do it for 2 years where as most teachers likely do it for a longer period of time.

You made an argument about opportunity cost (and in the context of law school admissions) that argument is void b/c TFA'ers seem to get a boost which helps them increase their future earnings potential.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby badfish » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:01 am

wiscgrl03 wrote:
badfish wrote:Basically what I'm saying is, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say that they pay a higher opportunity cost and they deserve the boost and then try and downplay the fact that many teachers do it FOR the boost (thus negating the opportunity cost argument) by making a (IMHO) poor argument that 33% decide to stay in teaching.

That STILL means most people do their time and move onto something better (presumably) using the TFA boost to their benefit.


Why would you not use it to your benifit? You make it sound like they are wrong for using it to help them get a job when they are done or to get into to school. I think that almost anybody uses their experiences and life skills to their advantage when trying to better themselves.


It's not wrong, you are. You quoted opportunity cost, I said that the argument is poor b/c they use the experience to increase future earnings potential. You gave a counter argument that strengthened mine. Now you're trying to spin it to a moral argument about why it is wrong for them to do those things. It is not wrong. It just negates your opportunity cost argument.

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worldtraveler
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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:03 am

Most teachers could make more money doing something else if they chose to. You don't think people with math and science degrees could have had a more lucrative degree had they chosen to do something besides teach?

Why does it even matter what people are giving up? If the point is about service, why get into a pissing match about "OMG I could have made so much more money but I'm important because I chose to teach?"[/quote]

Dude. Drop the idealism. A teacher in the second worst school in the city didn't choose between that and being a nuclear physicist. So, no, I don't think someone who only qualified for a job at a terribad school had boundless opportunities before them.

It matters because you were asking what makes TFA volunteers different from teachers. You are what my mother called wrong and strong. Jumping from one argument to another as you lose them and refusing to concede.[/quote][/quote]

What is so disgusting to you about being compared to other teachers? You act as though all non-TFA teachers are low-lifes that take these jobs because it's the only thing they can do? Has it occurred to you that some of them take these jobs for the same reason that people join TFA? No...apparently only TFA people can do it out of the goodness of their heart, and other teachers do it because they aren't smart enough to do other things.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:16 am

worldtraveler wrote:What is so disgusting to you about being compared to other teachers? You act as though all non-TFA teachers are low-lifes that take these jobs because it's the only thing they can do? Has it occurred to you that some of them take these jobs for the same reason that people join TFA? No...apparently only TFA people can do it out of the goodness of their heart, and other teachers do it because they aren't smart enough to do other things.


Disgusting. Lowlifes. These are words that you used. Let's make that clear. Took the jobs because it's the only thing they can do? I'd argue they took the job because it's a job. Most TFA people can confirm that a number of the teachers are there for a paycheck.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby wiscgrl03 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:17 am

worldtraveler wrote:Most teachers could make more money doing something else if they chose to. You don't think people with math and science degrees could have had a more lucrative degree had they chosen to do something besides teach?

Why does it even matter what people are giving up? If the point is about service, why get into a pissing match about "OMG I could have made so much more money but I'm important because I chose to teach?"


Dude. Drop the idealism. A teacher in the second worst school in the city didn't choose between that and being a nuclear physicist. So, no, I don't think someone who only qualified for a job at a terribad school had boundless opportunities before them.

It matters because you were asking what makes TFA volunteers different from teachers. You are what my mother called wrong and strong. Jumping from one argument to another as you lose them and refusing to concede.[/quote][/quote]

What is so disgusting to you about being compared to other teachers? You act as though all non-TFA teachers are low-lifes that take these jobs because it's the only thing they can do? Has it occurred to you that some of them take these jobs for the same reason that people join TFA? No...apparently only TFA people can do it out of the goodness of their heart, and other teachers do it because they aren't smart enough to do other things.[/quote]

That is not true. I know plenty of people who are teachers and do great things. However I do also have my personal experience in the school I teach in. I teach in the worst high school in my city, and the teachers are here are mostly transfers from other schools because they could not hack it. From MY experience the other teachers I work with are lazy and don't care, but that is why they have been placed at the school I work in. It is an unfortunate but true situation that my school district has put the poor performing schools in. The best teachers get the jobs at the best schools, which while not an easy task to work there, is a very different struggle from the school I teach in.
So I guess it would bother me to suggest that the teacher who teaches next to me who watches movies three days a week, and has free days the others should get a boost just because she works at an inner city school.
Last edited by wiscgrl03 on Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby kcg171 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:20 am

I think that, like most good softs, TFA needs to be explained. If I just say that I was a corps member, I think it is like any regular soft. But if I say that I closed the achievement gap in my district by 35 percent my first year and 40 percent my second year, that would impress some people. There are many non-TFA teachers who can do that, but the majority of them can't (or the achievement gap would not be so wide). I think any teacher with impressive stats would get whatever boost TFA teachers with impressive stats get.

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Re: TFA...wait a sec.....

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:21 am

Kohinoor wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:What is so disgusting to you about being compared to other teachers? You act as though all non-TFA teachers are low-lifes that take these jobs because it's the only thing they can do? Has it occurred to you that some of them take these jobs for the same reason that people join TFA? No...apparently only TFA people can do it out of the goodness of their heart, and other teachers do it because they aren't smart enough to do other things.


Disgusting. Lowlifes. These are words that you used. Let's make that clear. Took the jobs because it's the only thing they can do? I'd argue they took the job because it's a job. Most TFA people can confirm that a number of the teachers are there for a paycheck.


So then what's your issue with equating TFA with other teachers? I did that and you called it "dismissive", so clearly you have an issue with it.




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