Low GPA, High LSAT

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:21 pm

I don't think a 3.3 is crap for a math major. I really don't. It is average here at Yale. NO ONE gets above a 3.8 here. And I haven't ever heard of a 3.8 either.

Also, I know a friend who just got into YLS with a 3.3 and a 165. So, there. Of course it's never going to be a "lock" but I don't think it's as grim as it seems either.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Yup. You sure got me. What with that whole one example and all.

Completely nullifies the entire admission cycle's worth of data that I supplied. Surely does.

Are you sure you majored in math?

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:00 pm

Why are you so bitter? Your rejection letters? Poor homeless, needs to talk to me like I'm stupid!

edit: I don't fee like LSN provides an accurate picture, it's not the whole applicant pool, just people who register for the site.

littleone
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:59 am

Postby littleone » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:48 am

Hi Homeless! Since you're brutally honest, I was wondering what you thought of my chances at the top 10 law schools with my "crap/garbage" 3.3:

B.S. in biology from a Top 10 university, class of 2001
LSAT 172
Ph.D. in Pharmaceutics with plans on going into patent law for pharmaceuticals
several first-author publications in scientific journals
awards and fellowships
work experience in product development for several companies

Be honest -- I can take it :)

luckrooles
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:49 pm

Postby luckrooles » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:58 pm

Excellent thread here.

I was online looking for insight re: my similar situation:

Undergrad from a state school (Washington State) with a 3.91,
after re-taking several Fs from my freshman year, which was 10 years ago.

Unfortunately, calculated by the LSDAS it's around a 2.80 GPA.

(Taking the LSAT in June, expect to receive 170-174.)

Will any admissions officer even get to an addendum, or look at my transcript, to see a 3.91???

(earned while working full-time as a litigation secretary, even?)

johnnyvento
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:04 am

Postby johnnyvento » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:30 am

also- not supposed to sound arrogant, more like discouraged and sad.


The problem is, you do sound arrogant, so you probably will sound that way on the applications as well. I hope I'm wrong.

Me- undergrad Duke, PhD Neurobiology UNC, looking to get into patent law

I'll post my numbers when it becomes more relevant.


You may feel like you're extra special, but trust me, there are many other extra special people out there just like you.

I have no illusions that I will get into a top 14. I'd love to get into Duke Law but I have no expectation that they will except me unless I get a stellar LSAT.

Anyway, good luck to you man.

jv

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:37 pm

Halc: I only have 1 rejection letter so far and it is from a school that I fully expected to reject me. I have been accepted everywhere else. I am not bitter. I am merely surprised that a math major would think that ONE personal example would some how invalidate an entire set of admissions data. As others have pointed out along with me, there are many other people who have just as interesting stories as you... some are MUCH more interesting in that they will actually bring in a useful unique perspective- not the perspective of a precocious, self-entitled 20-year-old.

Also, LSN is representative of the top end schools as they get a lot of top students putting profiles on there. I reiterate that I think you should apply. ALL I am trying to tell you is that you should see YLS as a big reach and you should consider other schools that you would also be willing to attend.

littleone: As I told Halc, once you break 170 on the LSAT you are in excellent shape. A 172/3.3 combo will not be competitive at HYS. CCN will be your reach schools. I think you have an excellent shot at Penn and Michigan. UCLA and Northwestern could be safeties.

You can see what I am saying by cross-referencing lawschoolnumbers.com and admissions data on LSAC.org.

Good luck. You will end up at a great school. And so will Halc.

Also, Boalt will reject you because they like high GPAs.
Last edited by homeless on Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GygesRing
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Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:31 pm

Postby GygesRing » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:47 pm

Just as an observation -- speaking as a math major myself (albeit at a slightly less prestigious Ivy :wink: ), and having several friends who are math/engineering majors who are going through the application process right now as well, I really don't think 'difficult' majors get much in the means of a benefit of the doubt. It might matter on the margin, but you're a whopping .5 GPA away from their 25th. That matters a lot.

Also, while you are right that Yale gives some sort of advantage to Yale undergrads, I don't think the advantage is nearly as startling as you think. While they don't release individual statistics on every acceptance, Yale's UG does release the median GPAs/LSATs required for their students to get into a variety of law schools.

http://www.yale.edu/career/students/gra ... cs2005.pdf

So, the average Yale student that gets into YLS has a 172.4/3.81, and the average Yale undergrad that attends YLS has a 172.2/3.79. The 50th percentile at YLS as a whole, meanwhile, is a 172/3.88. Is there some sort of bump for Yale UGs? Probably at least a tad. Is it going to give you enough of a bump to have a serious shot at getting into YLS? Not likely.

Mind you, you still might be one of those two white guys with a <3.4 GPA that they accept ever year. It's possible. However, considering you're also applying during senior year at the age of 20 (or 19, I guess, depending on when the birthday is), I don't know if you can seriously sit down and tell yourself that you are the best candidate at your GPA that exists.

homeless
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:58 pm

Thanks Gyges, you have provided the final bits of evidence that should help Halc accept reality.

parke9
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Postby parke9 » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:24 pm

There are so many ridiculously highly qualified applicants hoping to get into Yale Law. Why would they want to admit a 20 year old kid whose GPA is a full half-point lower than their average? People are rejected from Yale that have 3.5s and 3.6s, a Ph.D. and ten years of work experience. This isn't like applying to undergrad; you can't just waltz in on a strong essay, a quick wink and a handshake. But maybe it's good to learn that lesson at 20; a lot of people don't learn it until they are way older. I don't mean to be a downer but I just think it's important to be realistic.

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lawdog
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:23 pm

Postby lawdog » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:36 pm

I have no grand illusions when it comes to Chicago, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, basically any top 6. I have heard for high gpa's high lsats rejected, and moderately high gpa 3.6ish range, and lsats 165+ range, be accepted. It really is about what you can bring to the programs diffrent from the other 4.0 170 lsat students that they have already accepted.

neverborn
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:27 am

Postby neverborn » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:48 pm

homeless: Do you feel a 172/3.5 or 172/3.6 (GPA is from the University of Chicago, for what it's worth) is competitive at HYS? CCN?

Love and cupcakes,
neverborn

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:22 pm

Neverborn: all my of opinions are based on lawschoonumbers.com and LSAC.org.

Please go to those sites and see what your numbers so for you.

From my own research I can say that a 172/3.5 would stand a very good chance at CCN. For sure. NYU picked me up immediately and Columbia thought about it for a few extra weeks, but also accepted me. And I had a 3.43 and a 174.

HYS would be a bit more tricky, but I think you would have a decent shot with them as well. GO CHECK OUT LSN.

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DOS
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Postby DOS » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:24 pm

Hi!

Another high LSAT low GPA candidate chiming in!

3.4/176

I am hoping schools will give me the benefit of the doubt because it was well over 10 years ago and my mother was ill with breast cancer during most of college, finally dying during my senior year. However, with the applicant pool that is applying at these schools being as strong at it is, there is really no reason an admissions committee has to be sympathetic and 'take a chance' with somebody with a sub par GPA.

My guess some schools will downplay my grades and go by my LSAT, while some schools will say a 3.4 is a 3.4 and take the grades very seriously.

What do you think?

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:57 pm

You have my profile.

Columbia, NYU and Harvard all like high LSATs. C and N will accept you. You have a slightly better shot at Harvard than I do. I was deferred.

I have also been out of school for quite some time.

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AR75
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Postby AR75 » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:58 pm

2.3 and 179. What do you think?

homeless
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Postby homeless » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:30 pm

Andy: go f yourself.

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AR75
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Postby AR75 » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:33 pm

Awww...hateful, hateful. So serious. :cry:

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capnjack
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Postby capnjack » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:47 pm

Also, Boalt will reject you because they like high GPAs.


not necessarily; I'm not claiming any statistical significance, but Boalt let me in w/ 3.3 and 175.

There are no sure things in this process, one way or another!

homeless
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Postby homeless » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:51 pm

Sweet. Good job.

cim_can
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Postby cim_can » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:07 pm

I don't think a 3.3 is crap for a math major. I really don't. It is average here at Yale. NO ONE gets above a 3.8 here. And I haven't ever heard of a 3.8 either.


Actually, as a Yalie with a 3.87 History / International Studies double major, people do get 3.8's. And, unfortunately, I'm not alone. My LSDAS report informs me that I'm in the 89% percentile. The LSDAS report also lists that 18% of Yale gets between a 3.80 and a 3.99. A 3.3 for math and philosophy isn't bad, and I believe (since there are no published means, this is just a guess) that Yale's average GPA is around a 3.5, but unfortunately 3.8's do happen at Yale - almost 20%.

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DOS
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Postby DOS » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:37 pm

Thanks homeless!

Your advice and your personal experience, along with Captain Jack’s experience are most heartening. Originally when applying to law school, my goals were fairly modest...

Even when I took the test and got back my score it did not register, I thought well 176, not that I was displeased, but I figured well I guess I hit a triple, but I felt I needed a ‘homerun’ to get into a top school and was still figuring I’d wind up at Northwestern (not that would be a bad fate it is a good school in a great location), but spending time on this board made me realize my options.

neverborn
Posts: 46
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Postby neverborn » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:07 pm

homeless: link your LSN?

littleone
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:59 am

Postby littleone » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:07 am

Thanks for the input, homeless! Michigan's my top choice, so I'm glad you don't think I'm delusional for hoping to get in. Keep us updated as your admissions continue to roll in! :)




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