Low GPA, High LSAT

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:47 pm

also- not supposed to sound arrogant, more like discouraged and sad.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:50 pm

look... go ahead and apply.

I am just trying to tell you that you should not be surprised if you get rejected. Their are a lot of special people applying to Yale and the rest.

Your 3.3 is a problem.

MOST top schools have a panel of people looking at applications.

Yale/Harvard/Stanford are big big reaches for you because of your GPA... which is shit.

You have a good shot at Columbia, Chicago, NYU due to your LSAT. You are in a great position.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:53 pm

Discouraged? Why? Columbia grads have a ton of options upon graduation (as well as a ton of money).

CCN are fantastic schools. You are set for life graduating from those.

If you wanted to be eligible for HYS you should have actually bothered studying in undergrad. A 3.3 in philosophy is weak. Especially at a school like Yale which hands out As to anyone who bothers to attend class.

And, believe me, I am in the same position as you are (3.43) but with the benefit of a rather stellar work background backing me up as well.

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:55 pm

I said Mathematics and Philosophy. And the grade inflation here is not what you wish it was. I was a 16 when I got here.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:15 pm

Look. I was a little more harsh than I meant to be.

All I am saying is that there are other people who are just as amazing as you but with much better GPAs applying to Yale as well. You are competing with some very very accomplished people.

By all means apply... just keep some prespective on your chances. You may get in (and I sincerely wish you all the best in your attempt) but if you don't, you should not be surprised.

Go look at YLS LSN chart. Are you honestly saying that there as no one at least as impressive as you who applied last year?

You are certain to get into 2 out of 3 of CCN. That is a great place to be and something to be proud of.

You should feel good about yourself and your prospects. Just be sure to have a realistic view of your chances at YLS. They are not good.

typical1L
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Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:51 pm

Postby typical1L » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:16 pm

I agree with vagrant; that GPA is going to hurt you.

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:53 pm

I really want to go to (besides Yale)
Harvard, georgetown, penn, columbia (I have to say, I hate NYC I don't think I could live there). Haven't thought too much about the others.

I may still go to Divinity school instead though (don't laugh)

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:02 pm

One of my best friends went to Northwesten Divinity school and now is the pastor of his own church. Be sure you want to go that route though... it is a life full of sacrifice. He makes very little money and lives on the church property with his family. He is also the only true Christian I have ever met and is a truly great guy.

I think you will definitely get into Penn and have a GREAT shot at Columbia.

Harvard is tricky due to the GPA issue.

Georgetown will be a backup for you.

You'll do well for yourself.

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:06 pm

I was pretty sad after the "should have actually studied" comment. I'm in a fragile state due to current midterms.

Is Georgetown really a backup? Penn? I was under the impression that any of them are about equally hard to get into.

I wouldn't do div school for the MDiv. I'd do it for the PhD in theology.

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:07 pm

which would definitely be a difficult life too. But that would be a way to go to Harvard if I really needed to.

Ulfrekr
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:12 pm

Postby Ulfrekr » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:14 pm

Is anyone really surprised by a Yale rejection? No one can consider it a lock, at least based on stats alone.

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:18 pm

Yeah, But I really do believe that if you don't believe you can get in, then you won't!

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:18 pm

Halc:

There is a HUGE difference in Yale vs. Penn or Gulc. Huge.

Yes, you should feel reasonably confident about Penn and Michigan.

You have good shots at CCN and should apply to all three. One will probably reject you.

Anything ranked 10-14 would be a good backup for you.

You're in a good position.

CCN grads can make $160k base with a $30k bonus their first year as long as don't graduate in the bottom 1/4 of their class.

Sorry for making you feel bad. You need to do some serious research on your own. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go check lawschoolnumbers.com and look up the 2006 graph profiles for all of the schools you are applying to. I think you will have a much better understanding of the way the applications work. Also check out deloggio for more info.

Halcyonnwar
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:20 pm

Ok. I didn't know what that was before. Law school numbers... helpful.

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AR75
Posts: 96
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Postby AR75 » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:22 pm

The way applications work or numerical interpretations? Remember, dispenser of sage advice, that each person sends in an "application", and not a piece of paper with two numbers written on it.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:33 pm

80% of the decision is based on numbers.

HALC:

Here is Yale's Graph:

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/graphs.php?school_code=0031&program=1&date=20060703

Looks rough for anyone below a 3.8. I highly doubt your personal statement will make a difference when you are this far out of the target range. That 1 green dot you see off by itself is an AA admit.

Here is Columbia's graph:
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/graphs.php?school_code=2163&program=1&date=20060703
You've got a shot here... but it is tenuous. This is where your personal statement/story comes into play. You are on the borderline and THIS is where your background can make a difference.

University of Pennsylvania:

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/graphs.php?school_code=0027&program=1&date=20060703

Looking Good! Seriously.

GULC:
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/graphs.php?school_code=0007&program=1&date=20060703
Guaranteed admit! Well, almost. Just don't draw any middle fingers on your personal statement.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:35 pm

One other note: do you see how pretty much everyone applying to these top 10 schools have 3.5+ GPAs?

Are you understanding me a little better now?

Luckily you LSAT makes up for it. The problem is that HYS get lots of people who have high LSATs AND high GPAs along with all the great personal background (most of which are at least as impressive as yours.)

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in my eyes
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Postby in my eyes » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:47 pm

My boy LongOdds got into Harvard with a 3.4 173..

Keep the hope! For me anyway :D

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in my eyes
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Postby in my eyes » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:48 pm

Homeless..

What's your opinion on undergraduate institution rank?

I know you're not a big fan of those with low GPA's applying to top schools no matter what the LSAT, but do you think being from a top 20 or top 50 or top 100 or whatever undergraduate can help you out. I would assume they give ivy's some extra boost although they'd never admit it

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:57 pm

Man. I don't know. It certianly helps to come from Princeton/Yale/Harvard.

The question is: how much?

I am betting the impact is less than a well written personal statement. Which is to say: minimal.

However, when combined with good PS and LOR, it could help out a borderline case. For instance, it will help Halcyonnwar get into Columbia, but will have no impact on applying to GULC (where she will get in for sure).

Also, I need to clarify my position on applications. I absolutely applied to Stanford and Harvard with a high LSAT/low GPA combo (174/3.43). So I am not saying to not try. What I am saying is that you need to have realistic expectations.

I applied to those schools expecting to be rejected. As a result I have 8 other schools that I had researched and, frankly, was much more emotionally invested with. So when Stanfurd rejected me, I laughed and did not give it another thought.

Of course, I was in at Columbia by then, which took the sting out.

But my point remains.

Who knows? I was deferred at Harvard. Maybe they decide they need me in their class. But I am NOT banking on that. Right now I am planning on being in New York next year.

Furthermore, a high LSAT is MUCH better to have than a high GPA. One only needs to research LSN to see why. High LSATs are much more coveted.

So... definitely apply if you are a splitter, epecially if you have a solid PS and brace of LORs. Just make sure you have some excellent back-ups you are happy with.

Halcyonnwar
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Postby Halcyonnwar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:08 pm

I wish I could find the article...

Where Yale talks about how it gives special consideration to lower gpas of Yale and Harvard students. They don't release the data because they are afraid of "misunderstandings" which I know was the word they used in the article.

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AR75
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:59 pm

Postby AR75 » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:56 am

To homeless--
Very nice adjustment of explanation in the above "your numbers are crap" post.

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:40 pm

heh. Thanks. Of course, her 3.3 is still crap from top 10 schools, I just explained why in a more in-depth way.

And, by the way, I have a crap GPA for top 10 schools as well.

Halc: if Yale does give special consideration for Yale and Harvard students, that's great. Certainly I would know nothing about that as I went to UC Berkeley.

But I again point to those charts: virtually NO ONE gets accepted with a 3.3. Are you the only Yale grad with a 3.3 applying to YLS? Were there none applying last year?

Just something to think about...

homeless
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Postby homeless » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:50 pm

To Andyroberts75-

I wanted to address your point that an application is more than just 2 numbers.

I completely agree with you. I put a ton of effort into shoring up the presentation of my "soft factors".

That being said, graphs like the ones I posted DO tell us a lot about admissions based on numbers.

As I said to Halc, if you don't see ANYONE with your gpa/LSAT combo getting in last year on LSN, than you are probably not getting in. Look, there are MANY people out there with GREAT stories. I am sure there were people just as impressive has HALC applying to YLS last year with similar numbers as her. They got rejected.

Personal Statements and LORs are useful in helping borderline candidates.

Also, I am not a "dispenser of sage advice." I am a dispenser of advice which any of you could find on your own with a modicum of research. For instance, my position in this thread is based on reading deloggio.com, LSN and LSAC.org.

HTH

Alexandria
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 am

Postby Alexandria » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:21 pm

As another high LSAT/mediocre GPA splitter, best wishes!

One thing I'd say though, is that your age may prove more of a hindrance than a boost. I've read that people under 21 have more dings and waitlists than those a little older with the same numbers. I think law schools are concerned about maturity.

As an example of a person who should not have gone straight from undergrad to grad school, I graduated from college at 20 (several years ago), and trust me, I had no idea what I was doing. I ended up leaving my Master's program after the first year because it was not at all what I thought it would be and was not leading me in the path I had in mind.

I am not at all saying you don't know what you're doing... plenty of 20 year olds have done more research and understand more about what they want professionally than I did. I'm just giving an example of why law schools may be leery about younger students.




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