No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

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Bonzeye

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No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bonzeye » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:13 pm

I have a good paying manual labor job that has allowed me to keep college costs low so far. In my research I have found very few internship opportunities that pay comparably- if they pay at all. As I plan on going the K-JD route (please don't try and convince me to take a year off- this path isn't for everyone) it makes the most sense to me to continue working at my current job. I am on track to graduate debt free if I continue working.

Would schools/law firms hold this against me? I have enough other things to fill my resume (tutoring, jobs, volunteering), but no formal internships.

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Sls17

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Sls17 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:25 pm

What are your numbers (LSAT/GPA) and what school(s) are you targeting? This decision will matter only at certain margins.

nixy

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby nixy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:32 pm

Also there's nothing necessarily better about an internship than a job. An internship isn't likely to add anything to your application that you don't have from working (neither will be the equivalent of working full time post-grad), so it likely makes sense to avoid debt.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby dvlthndr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:36 pm

The fact that you have a job is as impressive as anything else. Law school resumes are merely a formality for people going K-JD. Anybody coming straight from college are kidding themselves if they think a few months in the summer pushing paper will meaningfully move the needle in admissions.

Bonzeye

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bonzeye » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:44 pm

Sls17 wrote:What are your numbers (LSAT/GPA) and what school(s) are you targeting? This decision will matter only at certain margins.

Currently I have a 3.9 and my LSAT is pending (PT in the 170's, but who knows). Targeting most of the T13, willing to go anywhere offering me good money.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby QContinuum » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:09 pm

nixy wrote:Also there's nothing necessarily better about an internship than a job. An internship isn't likely to add anything to your application that you don't have from working (neither will be the equivalent of working full time post-grad), so it likely makes sense to avoid debt.

I'm with nix here. I could even see the manual labor gig conferring an advantage - law school adcoms love diversity of any kind, and esp. at the T13/T20 level that OP's targeting, I'd venture to say it's relatively rare to see applicants with manual labor on the resume.

Certainly I don't think there's any compelling reason for OP to give up the manual labor job for some internship or other.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bingo_Bongo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:06 am

Bonzeye wrote:I have a good paying manual labor job that has allowed me to keep college costs low so far.


Good for you, brother. Like QContinuum said, that manual labor job might actually be a slight perk depending on who is reviewing your application. Personally, I'd weigh a manual labor job that an applicant had to do because of money over a privileged kid who had rich enough parents he could afford unpaid white collar internships. But, that's just me. And, of course, in the grand scheme of the law school admission world, softs don't matter all that much, generally. It's all about that LSAT and GPA. The difference between manual labor and a white collar internship are going to be so slight as to be almost completely negligible. Working to improve your LSAT score by just +1 point will do you a lot more favors than worrying about an internship.

Best of luck.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Anon-non-anon » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:38 am

Bingo_Bongo wrote:
Bonzeye wrote:I have a good paying manual labor job that has allowed me to keep college costs low so far.


Good for you, brother. Like QContinuum said, that manual labor job might actually be a slight perk depending on who is reviewing your application. Personally, I'd weigh a manual labor job that an applicant had to do because of money over a privileged kid who had rich enough parents he could afford unpaid white collar internships. But, that's just me. And, of course, in the grand scheme of the law school admission world, softs don't matter all that much, generally. It's all about that LSAT and GPA. The difference between manual labor and a white collar internship are going to be so slight as to be almost completely negligible. Working to improve your LSAT score by just +1 point will do you a lot more favors than worrying about an internship.

Best of luck.


I had a big law partner (top few in that city) tell the entire Law Review at my T25 that he cares more about fast food / other service jobs than anything else for SA positions. I imagine this would get a similar reaction. I have landed multiple jobs mostly talking about working at a fast food place.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bonzeye » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:28 am

Anon-non-anon wrote:
Bingo_Bongo wrote:
Bonzeye wrote:I have a good paying manual labor job that has allowed me to keep college costs low so far.


Good for you, brother. Like QContinuum said, that manual labor job might actually be a slight perk depending on who is reviewing your application. Personally, I'd weigh a manual labor job that an applicant had to do because of money over a privileged kid who had rich enough parents he could afford unpaid white collar internships. But, that's just me. And, of course, in the grand scheme of the law school admission world, softs don't matter all that much, generally. It's all about that LSAT and GPA. The difference between manual labor and a white collar internship are going to be so slight as to be almost completely negligible. Working to improve your LSAT score by just +1 point will do you a lot more favors than worrying about an internship.

Best of luck.


I had a big law partner (top few in that city) tell the entire Law Review at my T25 that he cares more about fast food / other service jobs than anything else for SA positions. I imagine this would get a similar reaction. I have landed multiple jobs mostly talking about working at a fast food place.


That's actually really interesting. Not that I haven't heard it before, though. It does seem like firms care a lot about grit (and for good reason, given the 80 hour weeks). This is good news for me since I've also worked in restaurants, mainly dishwashing since the age of 14.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Anon-non-anon » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 pm

Bonzeye wrote:
Anon-non-anon wrote:
Bingo_Bongo wrote:
Bonzeye wrote:I have a good paying manual labor job that has allowed me to keep college costs low so far.


Good for you, brother. Like QContinuum said, that manual labor job might actually be a slight perk depending on who is reviewing your application. Personally, I'd weigh a manual labor job that an applicant had to do because of money over a privileged kid who had rich enough parents he could afford unpaid white collar internships. But, that's just me. And, of course, in the grand scheme of the law school admission world, softs don't matter all that much, generally. It's all about that LSAT and GPA. The difference between manual labor and a white collar internship are going to be so slight as to be almost completely negligible. Working to improve your LSAT score by just +1 point will do you a lot more favors than worrying about an internship.

Best of luck.


I had a big law partner (top few in that city) tell the entire Law Review at my T25 that he cares more about fast food / other service jobs than anything else for SA positions. I imagine this would get a similar reaction. I have landed multiple jobs mostly talking about working at a fast food place.


That's actually really interesting. Not that I haven't heard it before, though. It does seem like firms care a lot about grit (and for good reason, given the 80 hour weeks). This is good news for me since I've also worked in restaurants, mainly dishwashing since the age of 14.


Yep! I didn't have my fast food job on my resume by the time I was interviewing given space concerns, but I had things on my resume / somewhat prepared answers to bring it up. For example, I include "Burrito Rolling" as an interest. Almost without fail interviewers think it's funny/interesting and ask about it, after which I explain that I worked at Chipotle and it taught me a lot about service jobs (which law is), etc. etc. etc. Same goes for questions about experiences on a team or in a difficult environment. As a K-JD, ppl won't believe you if you try to say you know what law firm life will be like and can handle it. People will think you, in fact, CAN handle it if you tell stories about dealing with awful customers in nice ways despite making $10/hr. The obvious inference is if you pay me $180k and the client keeps his pants on, I can handle it.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Dcc617 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:02 pm

Obligatory post that you don't "know" you want to do K-JD because how could you. You sound dumb for saying that. However, if you've decided you know better than lawyers and law students, then go ahead. Nobody can make you do otherwise.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bonzeye » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:13 pm

Dcc617 wrote:Obligatory post that you don't "know" you want to do K-JD because how could you. You sound dumb for saying that. However, if you've decided you know better than lawyers and law students, then go ahead. Nobody can make you do otherwise.


Actually, I do know I want to go K-JD. :) It's not some sort of intangible.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby nixy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:18 pm

You know you want to go KJD.

You don’t know that it’s a good idea, because it’s probably not, and you’ve got nothing to compare it to.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Dcc617 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:19 pm

Bonzeye wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Obligatory post that you don't "know" you want to do K-JD because how could you. You sound dumb for saying that. However, if you've decided you know better than lawyers and law students, then go ahead. Nobody can make you do otherwise.


Actually, I do know I want to go K-JD. :) It's not some sort of intangible.


Right, but you're like what, 20 or 21, have never held a professional job, haven't lived outside of school, have never been a lawyer, have never worked in the legal field, etc. You haven't even finished college. You have no basis for saying that you know you want to spend 3 years getting a professional degree that will be useful only if you want to be a lawyer. Plus, even if you think that's a good idea now, your opinion may change substantially in a few years or after some experience.

That's why you sound dumb. It's dumb to think that you know everything there is to know about the decision now. It may work out for you, but who knows. You don't.

That being said, you seem to have it all figured out so follow your dreams.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bonzeye » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:34 pm

Dcc617 wrote:
Bonzeye wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Obligatory post that you don't "know" you want to do K-JD because how could you. You sound dumb for saying that. However, if you've decided you know better than lawyers and law students, then go ahead. Nobody can make you do otherwise.


Actually, I do know I want to go K-JD. :) It's not some sort of intangible.


Right, but you're like what, 20 or 21, have never held a professional job, haven't lived outside of school, have never been a lawyer, have never worked in the legal field, etc. You haven't even finished college. You have no basis for saying that you know you want to spend 3 years getting a professional degree that will be useful only if you want to be a lawyer. Plus, even if you think that's a good idea now, your opinion may change substantially in a few years or after some experience.

That's why you sound dumb. It's dumb to think that you know everything there is to know about the decision now. It may work out for you, but who knows. You don't.

That being said, you seem to have it all figured out so follow your dreams.

I have held full time jobs, even if I didn't work in an office, and I'm a little confused as to why paper pushing in a suit is infinitely more valuable experience. The consensus I've heard is that biglaw is hard for people to adjust to because client management and long hours are difficult, not because functioning in an office environment is especially challenging. Or am I wrong? I've worked full time while going to school full time for several years and have managed it just fine. I'm confident I know more about working hard and adapting than most of the 1L's I'll be competing with. And as for your last point, I have been around lawyers in my family (one in private practice, one in a large firm) and understand exactly what the profession demands. And anyway, why are you so scared my opinion will change, and why would those with professional experience by any less vulnerable to this?

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Sls17 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:39 pm

I agree with everyone saying that the manual labor job is a great thing to have on a resume — but you already have it. It sounds like you’ve been in your current job for a while. To the extent it might be worth rounding out your resume with a different type of experience (assuming it’s impressive, unique, reflective of your interests, etc), I do think that could benefit your application — though again, just at the margins, as numbers are 90% of the game, and it sounds like you have strong ones.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby The Lsat Airbender » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:04 pm

Bonzeye wrote:I have held full time jobs, even if I didn't work in an office, and I'm a little confused as to why paper pushing in a suit is infinitely more valuable experience. The consensus I've heard is that biglaw is hard for people to adjust to because client management and long hours are difficult, not because functioning in an office environment is especially challenging. Or am I wrong? I've worked full time while going to school full time for several years and have managed it just fine. I'm confident I know more about working hard and adapting than most of the 1L's I'll be competing with. And as for your last point, I have been around lawyers in my family (one in private practice, one in a large firm) and understand exactly what the profession demands. And anyway, why are you so scared my opinion will change, and why would those with professional experience by any less vulnerable to this?


1) Once you get a JD you're pigeonholed into that job for the rest of your life. Doing something else - anything else - for a bit would enrich your life at the least and might even result in your finding a path you like even more than law.

2) You'll save money, make connections, and flesh out your resume, giving you a more solid foundation for the first legal job which in turn is hugely consequential for your career trajectory.

3) It's a chance to experiment with living in a different city and other lifestyle choices that will quickly ossify during law school.

4) Office jobs are meaningfully different in a number of ways and if you like your current job you might find that working full-time (let alone biglaw hours) in that setting isn't for you.


1) and 2) weren't true for your parents' generation so, respectfully, you might not be getting the best advice from people older than 35 on this.


ETA: To put it another way, it's pretty much objectively better not to be K-JD for the vast majority of people and you don't seem to be an exception.
Last edited by The Lsat Airbender on Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby nixy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:05 pm

Re: knowing what you want - most people don’t really know what they want to do with the rest of their life at age 20. You absolutely know how to work hard and that’s great but working 40 hours a week on top of classes just isn’t the same kind of experience as working full time in an office 9-5 (or more like 9:30 to 8). Not saying the legal work is easier, it’s just different. You may love it or at least like it just fine, you just don’t know that yet. Working hard in one kind of job isn’t necessarily the same as working hard in another kind of job. Plus lawyering is a pretty specific kind of office job and lots of people hate it.

Again, you might love it. But there’s a lot of value in getting a paralegal or legal assistant job for a year or so to see what you think. I have plenty of friends who wanted to go to law school until they worked for lawyers. Going to law school is an expensive way to find that out.

Your family experiences may have given you an accurate idea of whether you’ll like it. But they may not. That’s all.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Dcc617 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:30 pm

Bonzeye wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
Bonzeye wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Obligatory post that you don't "know" you want to do K-JD because how could you. You sound dumb for saying that. However, if you've decided you know better than lawyers and law students, then go ahead. Nobody can make you do otherwise.


Actually, I do know I want to go K-JD. :) It's not some sort of intangible.


Right, but you're like what, 20 or 21, have never held a professional job, haven't lived outside of school, have never been a lawyer, have never worked in the legal field, etc. You haven't even finished college. You have no basis for saying that you know you want to spend 3 years getting a professional degree that will be useful only if you want to be a lawyer. Plus, even if you think that's a good idea now, your opinion may change substantially in a few years or after some experience.

That's why you sound dumb. It's dumb to think that you know everything there is to know about the decision now. It may work out for you, but who knows. You don't.

That being said, you seem to have it all figured out so follow your dreams.

I have held full time jobs, even if I didn't work in an office, and I'm a little confused as to why paper pushing in a suit is infinitely more valuable experience. The consensus I've heard is that biglaw is hard for people to adjust to because client management and long hours are difficult, not because functioning in an office environment is especially challenging. Or am I wrong? I've worked full time while going to school full time for several years and have managed it just fine. I'm confident I know more about working hard and adapting than most of the 1L's I'll be competing with. And as for your last point, I have been around lawyers in my family (one in private practice, one in a large firm) and understand exactly what the profession demands. And anyway, why are you so scared my opinion will change, and why would those with professional experience by any less vulnerable to this?


Again, this all sounds dumb, because you don't know what you're talking about. That you don't think it sounds dumb should be a red flag. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

1) I didn't say working in a professional job was "infinitely more valuable." It's different. You may like it, you may not. There's a whole lot of specific office stuff. I'd be hesitant to commit myself to a lifetime of office work without ever having worked in one. Plus, professional experience is helpful to be a lawyer.

2) Biglaw is hard for a lot of reasons. Being able to adjust and survive to it is different from actively wanting that to be your career. You may be able to do it, but you should still investigate whether you should. It's your life.

3) You don't vicariously know everything there is about being a lawyer just because you have lawyer relatives. Do you see how dumb that sounds?

4) You can argue that your preferences and priorities won't change from age 20 until you die, but that also sounds dumb. You should change, a lot. You may have better perspective on yourself and your life when you've actually had some life experience outside of school.

5) Law school may be the right decision for you. But I don't think college students should rush to pigeonhole themselves in the legal career, or spend hundreds of thousands and three years, on a law degree. Because there's no rush. You don't get a medal for knocking down achievements the fastest.

I'd examine your decisions more and really understand how limited your knowledge base is for making this sort of decision.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby LSATWiz.com » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:24 pm

I agree with all of the above, but internships can be a waste of time if you know there's little chance they'll land you a f/t job. If OP went to law school, then wanted to go back into field A, the prior experience interning would be useless. The one exception to that would be if OP made connections with people who could legitimately help them, but that's unlikely to happen in one semester working at an intern level.

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Re: No undergrad internships if know I want to go K-JD?

Postby Bingo_Bongo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:33 am

LSATWiz.com wrote:I agree with all of the above, but internships can be a waste of time if you know there's little chance they'll land you a f/t job. If OP went to law school, then wanted to go back into field A, the prior experience interning would be useless. The one exception to that would be if OP made connections with people who could legitimately help them, but that's unlikely to happen in one semester working at an intern level.


Internships in certain fields can be very useful. A lot of "entry level" jobs now require "2-3 years experience doing x, y, and z." I've found that if you have an internship or two, a lot of times that "2-3 years" requirement will be satisfied if they like you a lot. If you have absolutely no experience in the field, you have no shot. So, getting some experience in a potential fall-back field might not hurt. I do agree that working intern-level at some place for a semester probably isn't enough to get you the requisite experience by itself, though. But that, with a combination of other things might (like an undergrad degree in the field, extra-curricular school experience in the field, ect).

My little bro just started an entry-level marketing job that required two years of experience, and his internships worked, combined with a major in it and some school experience. The place he's working at is NOT the place he interned at, so even if they don't lead to a full-time job, the experience can be useful.



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