Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

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ss7249

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby ss7249 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:32 pm

UBETutoring wrote:They're not going to pay for LS. Firms rarely paid for law school even in the '90's when costs were much cheaper. This was much more common with MBA's back in the day.

OP, I have tutored the LSAT to a significant number of paralegals - I'd venture to say 25% of my students are paralegals/legal assistants, and they want to go to law school because they're (1) tired of their job and (2) want to take the next step in life. The reality is that while being a lawyer is less monotonous than being a paralegal in that it requires more thinking and has more varied challenges if you dislike being a paralegal, it's very likely you won't love legal practice. Most people don't. They tolerate it in part because it sucks less than other jobs and because of money.

Although being a lawyer would seem to come with more esteem and salary, let's picture a reality in which you leave your current job, attend a middling law school and are unable to not only secure gainful employment as an attorney but are also overqualified to be a paralegal. In this situation, there is a very good chance you will have less income than you do now, be 3 years older and owe $300,000. At Cardozo, this reality is a real possibility. I'm not saying that will happen to you. For your sake, I hope it doesn't. But statistically speaking, it's more likely than securing a large firm job that pays $200,000 a year. You also have to realize that $200,000 is not really as much as you think it is in your 20's. Taxes will cut off about 40-45% of that, and you're left with $110,000, which on a 10-year loan repayment plan of $300k tuition + COL (figure $400k at graduation with interest) will probably leave you with about $70,000 post-tax or about $6,000 a month. You can live well with this amount of money, but it's not the high life.

And this is if you get the least likely outcome that will require nothing to go wrong. You're going to need to blow 1L year out of the park, do well on every exam, hope you don't get sick during exam time or have a personal issue arise that jeopardizes your focus, need to meet with OCI interviewers you connect with who don't hold being in a 3.5 year program against you, need to stomach 5+ years of big law and have them stomach you to repay your loans. None of these are 100% results. Some are 10%, and you need all of them to break in your favor just to come out of this with a net positive outcome. And let's pretend you overcome the odds to get that larger salary - the loans are something you still have to pay back so every other friday when you get that $4,230 deposited in your bank account, about $1,800 is going to pay those student loans. That's about 3 months of car payments down the drain every other Friday, the great vacation you'll need working 80-hour weeks down the drain each month, an engagement ring every 2 months (if your love interest won't say yes unless the ring is worth more than $7,200, they're not the one), a year of your child's state college tuition every 5 months, etc. all because the LSAT is annoying.

There is always a grass is greener perspective, but you have a job right now that annoys you for many of the same reasons legal practice will annoy you. You probably earn a decent wage and LS isn't going anywhere. You can take it upon yourself to not only make the chances of hitting your dreams more likely but to also make those dreams play out better even if they do come true by staying on for one more year and getting a better LSAT score. I've seen others with your goal and perspective in pretty much your exact position - an okay LSAT score and about 5 points away from a much better position. 5 years later, all of them would probably give a kidney to go back in time and stomach their job for another year, but it's possible you can be the exception. Some people just don't want to succeed enough or dream hard enough.



Hey! I really appreciate this - and also, THANKS for writing in so much detail. It really means alot. I think I may have not mentioned I'm signed up for the Jan LSAT, so I am definitely re-taking it. Also, I won't be needing to take out loans. I have a really good amount of money saved up, so I'm not super worried about loans.

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UBETutoring

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby UBETutoring » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:01 pm

ss7249 wrote:
UBETutoring wrote:They're not going to pay for LS. Firms rarely paid for law school even in the '90's when costs were much cheaper. This was much more common with MBA's back in the day.

OP, I have tutored the LSAT to a significant number of paralegals - I'd venture to say 25% of my students are paralegals/legal assistants, and they want to go to law school because they're (1) tired of their job and (2) want to take the next step in life. The reality is that while being a lawyer is less monotonous than being a paralegal in that it requires more thinking and has more varied challenges if you dislike being a paralegal, it's very likely you won't love legal practice. Most people don't. They tolerate it in part because it sucks less than other jobs and because of money.

Although being a lawyer would seem to come with more esteem and salary, let's picture a reality in which you leave your current job, attend a middling law school and are unable to not only secure gainful employment as an attorney but are also overqualified to be a paralegal. In this situation, there is a very good chance you will have less income than you do now, be 3 years older and owe $300,000. At Cardozo, this reality is a real possibility. I'm not saying that will happen to you. For your sake, I hope it doesn't. But statistically speaking, it's more likely than securing a large firm job that pays $200,000 a year. You also have to realize that $200,000 is not really as much as you think it is in your 20's. Taxes will cut off about 40-45% of that, and you're left with $110,000, which on a 10-year loan repayment plan of $300k tuition + COL (figure $400k at graduation with interest) will probably leave you with about $70,000 post-tax or about $6,000 a month. You can live well with this amount of money, but it's not the high life.

And this is if you get the least likely outcome that will require nothing to go wrong. You're going to need to blow 1L year out of the park, do well on every exam, hope you don't get sick during exam time or have a personal issue arise that jeopardizes your focus, need to meet with OCI interviewers you connect with who don't hold being in a 3.5 year program against you, need to stomach 5+ years of big law and have them stomach you to repay your loans. None of these are 100% results. Some are 10%, and you need all of them to break in your favor just to come out of this with a net positive outcome. And let's pretend you overcome the odds to get that larger salary - the loans are something you still have to pay back so every other friday when you get that $4,230 deposited in your bank account, about $1,800 is going to pay those student loans. That's about 3 months of car payments down the drain every other Friday, the great vacation you'll need working 80-hour weeks down the drain each month, an engagement ring every 2 months (if your love interest won't say yes unless the ring is worth more than $7,200, they're not the one), a year of your child's state college tuition every 5 months, etc. all because the LSAT is annoying.

There is always a grass is greener perspective, but you have a job right now that annoys you for many of the same reasons legal practice will annoy you. You probably earn a decent wage and LS isn't going anywhere. You can take it upon yourself to not only make the chances of hitting your dreams more likely but to also make those dreams play out better even if they do come true by staying on for one more year and getting a better LSAT score. I've seen others with your goal and perspective in pretty much your exact position - an okay LSAT score and about 5 points away from a much better position. 5 years later, all of them would probably give a kidney to go back in time and stomach their job for another year, but it's possible you can be the exception. Some people just don't want to succeed enough or dream hard enough.



Hey! I really appreciate this - and also, THANKS for writing in so much detail. It really means alot. I think I may have not mentioned I'm signed up for the Jan LSAT, so I am definitely re-taking it. Also, I won't be needing to take out loans. I have a really good amount of money saved up, so I'm not super worried about loans.

Well, if you're earning enough to save >$300,000 as a paralegal, I'd stay put simply because your savings account dwarfs that of most big law attorneys. If you have no loans and are earning $200k in NY, you're looking at a take-home pay of about $10,500 a month. Even if you live frugally, you'd be more hardpressed to save more than $6,000 a month unless you own real estate. It'd take you about 5 years to make back the amount you spend to attend Cardozo. As a paralegal earning what I'm guessing is about $350,000 a year and many 9-5 days, I'd say stay put and be grateful you are earning $200/hour full time as a paralegal as this may well exceed the takehome hourly pay of some of the partners you're working for.

spencer2020

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby spencer2020 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:58 pm

Clearing this up because I cannot stand the lack of accuracy. The May program at Cardozo does NOT create a higher tuition bill. Of course expenses (living, travel, etc.) will be higher because you are starting earlier and have to account for that, but Cardozo does not charge more money for starting earlier. The program is merely designed to help alleviate the stress of 1L on students by allowing them to spread coursework out over 3 semesters instead of 2. You are just simply throwing out #'s and are providing no support. Nothing on Cardozo's website leads to the conclusion that May entry equals higher tuition.

Feel free to call the financial aid department at Cardozo and verify my accuracy. I am most certain you will see that what I have said is the actual truth.

Npret

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby Npret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:26 pm

spencer2020 wrote:Clearing this up because I cannot stand the lack of accuracy. The May program at Cardozo does NOT create a higher tuition bill. Of course expenses (living, travel, etc.) will be higher because you are starting earlier and have to account for that, but Cardozo does not charge more money for starting earlier. The program is merely designed to help alleviate the stress of 1L on students by allowing them to spread coursework out over 3 semesters instead of 2. You are just simply throwing out #'s and are providing no support. Nothing on Cardozo's website leads to the conclusion that May entry equals higher tuition.

Feel free to call the financial aid department at Cardozo and verify my accuracy. I am most certain you will see that what I have said is the actual truth.

So 3 part time semesters costs the same as 2 full time semesters?

I don’t at all agree that the part time program is designed to “alleviate student stress.” That’s admissions marketing drivel at best. My guess is it lets them charge full tuition to people they would otherwise have to deny a place because those students don’t have the numbers needed to keep the medians.

According to law school transparency only 11% of students are paying full tuition, or did for the last class. I can see they need to pump up those numbers.

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby QContinuum » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:40 pm

Npret wrote:So 3 part time semesters costs the same as 2 full time semesters?

I don’t at all agree that the part time program is designed to “alleviate student stress.” That’s admissions marketing drivel at best. My guess is it lets them charge full tuition to people they would otherwise have to deny a place because those students don’t have the numbers needed to keep the medians.

According to law school transparency only 11% of students are paying full tuition, or did for the last class. I can see they need to pump up those numbers.

3 semesters instead of 2 actually sounds like more stress to me. It's an extra final exam period, with the associated stress/cramming/lack of sleep/etc. Spreading things out over 3 part-time semesters might mean you'd be better prepared for each final than you would be in the normal 2-semester scenario, but that wouldn't get you better grades, because you'd be curved relative to your fellow 3-semester classmates (who'd also have the same advantage re extra study time).

In law school I used to bemoan the lack of midterms. I bellyached to anyone who'd listen about the stress of having everything come down to a single final exam. Then I took a class with a midterm. It didn't help alleviate any stress. Quite the opposite... I stressed out about doing well on the midterm, then stressed out again about doing well on the final. Instead of only having to study for a single final exam, I had to study for exams twice. It was worse.

239840

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby 239840 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:07 am

UBETutoring wrote:They're not going to pay for LS. Firms rarely paid for law school even in the '90's when costs were much cheaper. This was much more common with MBA's back in the day.

OP, I have tutored the LSAT to a significant number of paralegals - I'd venture to say 25% of my students are paralegals/legal assistants, and they want to go to law school because they're (1) tired of their job and (2) want to take the next step in life. The reality is that while being a lawyer is less monotonous than being a paralegal in that it requires more thinking and has more varied challenges if you dislike being a paralegal, it's very likely you won't love legal practice. Most people don't. They tolerate it in part because it sucks less than other jobs and because of money.

Although being a lawyer would seem to come with more esteem and salary, let's picture a reality in which you leave your current job, attend a middling law school and are unable to not only secure gainful employment as an attorney but are also overqualified to be a paralegal. In this situation, there is a very good chance you will have less income than you do now, be 3 years older and owe $300,000. At Cardozo, this reality is a real possibility. I'm not saying that will happen to you. For your sake, I hope it doesn't. But statistically speaking, it's more likely than securing a large firm job that pays $200,000 a year. You also have to realize that $200,000 is not really as much as you think it is in your 20's. Taxes will cut off about 40-45% of that, and you're left with $110,000, which on a 10-year loan repayment plan of $300k tuition + COL (figure $400k at graduation with interest) will probably leave you with about $70,000 post-tax or about $6,000 a month. You can live well with this amount of money, but it's not the high life.

And this is if you get the least likely outcome that will require nothing to go wrong. You're going to need to blow 1L year out of the park, do well on every exam, hope you don't get sick during exam time or have a personal issue arise that jeopardizes your focus, need to meet with OCI interviewers you connect with who don't hold being in a 3.5 year program against you, need to stomach 5+ years of big law and have them stomach you to repay your loans. None of these are 100% results. Some are 10%, and you need all of them to break in your favor just to come out of this with a net positive outcome. And let's pretend you overcome the odds to get that larger salary - the loans are something you still have to pay back so every other friday when you get that $4,230 deposited in your bank account, about $1,800 is going to pay those student loans. That's about 3 months of car payments down the drain every other Friday, the great vacation you'll need working 80-hour weeks down the drain each month, an engagement ring every 2 months (if your love interest won't say yes unless the ring is worth more than $7,200, they're not the one), a year of your child's state college tuition every 5 months, etc. all because the LSAT is annoying.

There is always a grass is greener perspective, but you have a job right now that annoys you for many of the same reasons legal practice will annoy you. You probably earn a decent wage and LS isn't going anywhere. You can take it upon yourself to not only make the chances of hitting your dreams more likely but to also make those dreams play out better even if they do come true by staying on for one more year and getting a better LSAT score. I've seen others with your goal and perspective in pretty much your exact position - an okay LSAT score and about 5 points away from a much better position. 5 years later, all of them would probably give a kidney to go back in time and stomach their job for another year, but it's possible you can be the exception. Some people just don't want to succeed enough or dream hard enough.


Thanks for posting this. It really puts it all in perspective. Sometimes I'll get frustrated when I'm doing a tough LG and just think to myself that I should maybe just settle with the score I have. Unlike medicine or some other fields, the LSAT really seems to me to be the big "test" that defines so much of your career in law. You can determine so much with just your LSAT score.

cavalier1138

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:52 am

239840 wrote:Unlike medicine or some other fields, the LSAT really seems to me to be the big "test" that defines so much of your career in law. You can determine so much with just your LSAT score.


Well, a low MCAT score just keeps people from ever going to med school. Unlike the ABA, the powers-that-be who oversee med schools decided that barriers to entry should exist before eager young professionals cough up $300k.

239840

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Re: Waitlisted at Cardozo with good numbers

Postby 239840 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:08 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
239840 wrote:Unlike medicine or some other fields, the LSAT really seems to me to be the big "test" that defines so much of your career in law. You can determine so much with just your LSAT score.


Well, a low MCAT score just keeps people from ever going to med school. Unlike the ABA, the powers-that-be who oversee med schools decided that barriers to entry should exist before eager young professionals cough up $300k.


Yeah, I just feel like the consequences of a mediocre MCAT score would be less drastic as long as someone hit a certain level. Equalized for percentiles, a not-that-impressive MCAT score will still allow for a relatively successful career, and probably the ability to service debt, whereas a 70th percentile LSAT score is pretty limiting for a lot of people if they go in with high expectations, as is often pointed out on here. As far as the ABA, some schools should probably be closed and class sizes probably shouldn't be as big as they are.



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