GRE Score for T20?

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lawschool99

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GRE Score for T20?

Postby lawschool99 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:33 pm

I will be applying GRE-only this cycle and was wondering if my GRE score would be considered acceptable for T20 schools. I know there's not much data for GRE but hope I can hear some insights.

The score is 162 Verbal, 163 Quant, and 5/6 Writing. I've scored slightly higher than recent practice tests for verbal and a bit lower than usual in quant. Cumulative score is 225 out of 240 (each section scored out of 170). Thoughts?

kate460

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby kate460 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:03 pm

I can't advise you because I know nothing, but am also applying with GRE-only ED to GULC (14th) this cycle, plus Northwestern (11), UCLA (19th) and maybe Harvard or Columbia just for kicks. If nothing pans out, I'll take the LSAT and apply for 2020. 170V 167Q 6.0AWA. Maybe we're both screwed? There's just no data - we'll have to be our own sample. Good luck!

Wubbles

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby Wubbles » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:43 pm

kate460 wrote:I can't advise you because I know nothing, but am also applying with GRE-only ED to GULC (14th) this cycle, plus Northwestern (11), UCLA (19th) and maybe Harvard or Columbia just for kicks. If nothing pans out, I'll take the LSAT and apply for 2020. 170V 167Q 6.0AWA. Maybe we're both screwed? There's just no data - we'll have to be our own sample. Good luck!

I'm not sure what your GPA is, but you probably shouldn't be EDing to Gtown with that test taking ability and those scores. That's a lot of a money going down the drain just for not taking the lsat

kate460

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby kate460 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:31 pm

Wubbles wrote:
kate460 wrote:I can't advise you because I know nothing, but am also applying with GRE-only ED to GULC (14th) this cycle, plus Northwestern (11), UCLA (19th) and maybe Harvard or Columbia just for kicks. If nothing pans out, I'll take the LSAT and apply for 2020. 170V 167Q 6.0AWA. Maybe we're both screwed? There's just no data - we'll have to be our own sample. Good luck!

I'm not sure what your GPA is, but you probably shouldn't be EDing to Gtown with that test taking ability and those scores. That's a lot of a money going down the drain just for not taking the lsat


I've basically had my heart set on Georgetown's Global Law Scholars program, and was living abroad for the past 16 months where taking the LSAT was a logistical impossibility, so my only real option if I wanted 2019 intake was the GRE. My LSAC GPA is 4.14, for reference, but I have no real work experience yet or 'softs' that would impress (graduated in three years). Pre-law advising at my undergrad told me Gtown would be a reach and a deferral was most likely, but no one knows anything about applying with a GRE. I've been in touch w Gtown financial aid and they've assured me that ED applicants are evaluated for aid the same as everyone else. I think I just have to take them at their word w that. But I'll take all the advice and input I can get!

QContinuum

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby QContinuum » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:27 pm

kate460 wrote:
Wubbles wrote:
kate460 wrote:I can't advise you because I know nothing, but am also applying with GRE-only ED to GULC (14th) this cycle, plus Northwestern (11), UCLA (19th) and maybe Harvard or Columbia just for kicks. If nothing pans out, I'll take the LSAT and apply for 2020. 170V 167Q 6.0AWA. Maybe we're both screwed? There's just no data - we'll have to be our own sample. Good luck!

I'm not sure what your GPA is, but you probably shouldn't be EDing to Gtown with that test taking ability and those scores. That's a lot of a money going down the drain just for not taking the lsat


I've basically had my heart set on Georgetown's Global Law Scholars program, and was living abroad for the past 16 months where taking the LSAT was a logistical impossibility, so my only real option if I wanted 2019 intake was the GRE. My LSAC GPA is 4.14, for reference, but I have no real work experience yet or 'softs' that would impress (graduated in three years). Pre-law advising at my undergrad told me Gtown would be a reach and a deferral was most likely, but no one knows anything about applying with a GRE. I've been in touch w Gtown financial aid and they've assured me that ED applicants are evaluated for aid the same as everyone else. I think I just have to take them at their word w that. But I'll take all the advice and input I can get!


Per ETS, your GRE score would translate into a 176 LSAT. With a 4.14/176, everything from Harvard on down would be your oyster. (Your stats would be well within Yale/Stanford range, but your lack of softs would probably doom you with those two schools.) You'd likely get substantial scholly money (possibly even full tuition) at many of the T13 (likely from NYU on down). IOW, your prelaw advisor was flat-out wrong in telling you that "Gtown would be a reach." On what did your advisor base that conclusion?

You should not ED to Gtown. You should apply to all of the T13 schools that take the GRE this cycle - I believe these include Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn, UVA, Northwestern, and Cornell. If you don't receive the acceptances you want and/or the scholarships you want, take the LSAT and try again next cycle.

kate460

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby kate460 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:27 pm

QContinuum wrote:
kate460 wrote:
Wubbles wrote:
kate460 wrote:I can't advise you because I know nothing, but am also applying with GRE-only ED to GULC (14th) this cycle, plus Northwestern (11), UCLA (19th) and maybe Harvard or Columbia just for kicks. If nothing pans out, I'll take the LSAT and apply for 2020. 170V 167Q 6.0AWA. Maybe we're both screwed? There's just no data - we'll have to be our own sample. Good luck!

I'm not sure what your GPA is, but you probably shouldn't be EDing to Gtown with that test taking ability and those scores. That's a lot of a money going down the drain just for not taking the lsat


I've basically had my heart set on Georgetown's Global Law Scholars program, and was living abroad for the past 16 months where taking the LSAT was a logistical impossibility, so my only real option if I wanted 2019 intake was the GRE. My LSAC GPA is 4.14, for reference, but I have no real work experience yet or 'softs' that would impress (graduated in three years). Pre-law advising at my undergrad told me Gtown would be a reach and a deferral was most likely, but no one knows anything about applying with a GRE. I've been in touch w Gtown financial aid and they've assured me that ED applicants are evaluated for aid the same as everyone else. I think I just have to take them at their word w that. But I'll take all the advice and input I can get!


Per ETS, your GRE score would translate into a 176 LSAT. With a 4.14/176, everything from Harvard on down would be your oyster. (Your stats would be well within Yale/Stanford range, but your lack of softs would probably doom you with those two schools.) You'd likely get substantial scholly money (possibly even full tuition) at many of the T13 (likely from NYU on down). IOW, your prelaw advisor was flat-out wrong in telling you that "Gtown would be a reach." On what did your advisor base that conclusion?

You should not ED to Gtown. You should apply to all of the T13 schools that take the GRE this cycle - I believe these include Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn, UVA, Northwestern, and Cornell. If you don't receive the acceptances you want and/or the scholarships you want, take the LSAT and try again next cycle.


My undergrad is a public school: the pre-law advisor is also the pre-med advisor and only has a BA. So he probably knows nothing, but even the professional admissions counselors are just guessing with regard to GRE-only applicants, and I've seen a lot of people on TLS saying (hypothesizing) that the GRE is going to hurt my chances, now matter how high the score. Basically, there's so much conflicting advice and so little real info, so I'm just trying to decide whether its worth throwing my hat in the ring at T20s (Gtown specifically) with the GRE or just waiting for next year and hoping I can perform on the LSAT. For my undergrad, I turned down Ivies at sticker for a full-ride in-state so I wouldn't have debt, but I don't want to make that decision again. Definitely willing to wait a cycle to have a shot at scholarships, but really do want to go to Gtown if I can get in, and ED is attractive bc you get a decision w/in 4 weeks. Is negotiating with schools / leveraging other $$ offers a real thing?

kellyjohnson

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby kellyjohnson » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:04 pm

I mean, your chances might be marginally better with a 176 LSAT, but your GRE probably doesnt hurt you.

Schools use standardized tests for two reasons: (1) predict what your law school grades will be, and (2) report their scores to centralized agencies so that the school can be compared with other schools.

With a GRE, item (2) above can be ignored (at least until it becomes clear how GRE's will be reported and compared in rankings), and since your GPA is higher than their medians, it helps you.

As far as (1), your GRE score combined with your GPA leaves no doubt you can succeed in law school.

I see no reason why you would be in a bad position. I could maybe see schools being concerned that you dont really want to go to law school (otherwise, why did you take the GRE instead of LSAT), so I would have a good story ready.

QContinuum

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby QContinuum » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:18 pm

kate460 wrote:My undergrad is a public school: the pre-law advisor is also the pre-med advisor and only has a BA. So he probably knows nothing, but even the professional admissions counselors are just guessing with regard to GRE-only applicants, and I've seen a lot of people on TLS saying (hypothesizing) that the GRE is going to hurt my chances, now matter how high the score. Basically, there's so much conflicting advice and so little real info, so I'm just trying to decide whether its worth throwing my hat in the ring at T20s (Gtown specifically) with the GRE or just waiting for next year and hoping I can perform on the LSAT. For my undergrad, I turned down Ivies at sticker for a full-ride in-state so I wouldn't have debt, but I don't want to make that decision again. Definitely willing to wait a cycle to have a shot at scholarships, but really do want to go to Gtown if I can get in, and ED is attractive bc you get a decision w/in 4 weeks. Is negotiating with schools / leveraging other $$ offers a real thing?


GRE data is limited, true, but you have a very high GRE and a very high GPA. You aren't a "splitter" (someone with a low GPA/high test score). I think you have as strong a shot as any GRE-only candidate, and I really think you'd be selling yourself short by targeting Gtown and down, as opposed to the T13.

Unless application fees are a real hardship, IMO it's worth applying this cycle. If you don't get full-rides at any T13s, then I would agree with taking the LSAT and reapplying next cycle.

Why are you so set on Gtown? It's a strong school, but its placement pales in comparison with the T13. What are your goals post-law school?

kate460

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby kate460 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:37 pm

QContinuum wrote:
kate460 wrote:My undergrad is a public school: the pre-law advisor is also the pre-med advisor and only has a BA. So he probably knows nothing, but even the professional admissions counselors are just guessing with regard to GRE-only applicants, and I've seen a lot of people on TLS saying (hypothesizing) that the GRE is going to hurt my chances, now matter how high the score. Basically, there's so much conflicting advice and so little real info, so I'm just trying to decide whether its worth throwing my hat in the ring at T20s (Gtown specifically) with the GRE or just waiting for next year and hoping I can perform on the LSAT. For my undergrad, I turned down Ivies at sticker for a full-ride in-state so I wouldn't have debt, but I don't want to make that decision again. Definitely willing to wait a cycle to have a shot at scholarships, but really do want to go to Gtown if I can get in, and ED is attractive bc you get a decision w/in 4 weeks. Is negotiating with schools / leveraging other $$ offers a real thing?


GRE data is limited, true, but you have a very high GRE and a very high GPA. You aren't a "splitter" (someone with a low GPA/high test score). I think you have as strong a shot as any GRE-only candidate, and I really think you'd be selling yourself short by targeting Gtown and down, as opposed to the T13.

Unless application fees are a real hardship, IMO it's worth applying this cycle. If you don't get full-rides at any T13s, then I would agree with taking the LSAT and reapplying next cycle.

Why are you so set on Gtown? It's a strong school, but its placement pales in comparison with the T13. What are your goals post-law school?


I'm really interested in refugee rights and international migration (worked at a refugee center in Florence & studied EU migration policy for a year); Biglaw is definitely not in the cards for me. Highly likely that I end up in public interest work in non-profit sector w/ international orientation (studied IR undergrad) and D.C. is the best place for that. Plus they have great loan repayment help if you do go into PI and the Global Law Scholars program which is super competitive but would be a dream come true. I visited last month and loved it and genuinely thought (think?) its the best school I'd get in to. Didn't think there was a chance in hell of a full ride at a T20, let alone a T13.

QContinuum

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby QContinuum » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:56 am

kate460 wrote:I'm really interested in refugee rights and international migration (worked at a refugee center in Florence & studied EU migration policy for a year); Biglaw is definitely not in the cards for me. Highly likely that I end up in public interest work in non-profit sector w/ international orientation (studied IR undergrad) and D.C. is the best place for that. Plus they have great loan repayment help if you do go into PI and the Global Law Scholars program which is super competitive but would be a dream come true. I visited last month and loved it and genuinely thought (think?) its the best school I'd get in to. Didn't think there was a chance in hell of a full ride at a T20, let alone a T13.


Many PI gigs are more competitive than BigLaw gigs, meaning you need every edge you can get. International human rights work is probably the single most competitive PI field out there, and folks often say you need Yale to get it. That may be a slight exaggeration, but in any event, you need the best school you can get into. Yale's tops, but since that's unlikely, I think NYU would be an optimal outcome for you. NYU's extremely strong in PI (probably second only to Yale) and will put you in a much better position than Gtown. NYU also tends to be very generous with merit scholarships (which I know is perhaps less of a concern for you, but all else being equal I still think it's better to minimize debt where possible - you never know if you'll change your mind during 1L, or want to get married five years down the road - which would have a huge effect on any loan repayment assistance you may be getting). Aside from scholarships, all of the T13 have LRAPs for PI folks, so I wouldn't consider Gtown unique in that aspect.

Again, I strongly urge you to seriously consider the non-Y/S T13; esp. NYU, but frankly I'd even go to any of the other T13s over Gtown. It may not make logical sense, but the legal biz - including PI (maybe even especially PI) is incredibly prestige-obsessed, more than most other fields out there. Ofc, if you get into, say, both Cornell and Gtown with full schollies, and you hate Ithaca, and would be miserable living there, don't force yourself to go to Cornell; but someone with your stats should have many great options to choose from within the T13, and I strongly urge you to choose one of those options over Gtown. Now's not the time to try to economize on application fees. (If finances are a serious issue, you can email the schools for a fee waiver.)

AJordan

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby AJordan » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:40 pm

Absolutely do not apply ED. Apply RD and make them back up the money truck. If you don’t get in, and id be shocked, then just take the lsat and apply next year. If you can knock at 340 you can knock at 170.

kate460

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby kate460 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:30 pm

AJordan wrote:Absolutely do not apply ED. Apply RD and make them back up the money truck. If you don’t get in, and id be shocked, then just take the lsat and apply next year. If you can knock at 340 you can knock at 170.


I must say I'm very surprised to hear this and have no idea who or what to believe. I've read on TLS that T13s will be wanting a GRE in the top 3%ile in each section - my AWA and verbal are 99th, but Quant is only 92nd. Harvard and Gtown have both told me that Q and V will be weighted equally. In the interest of full disclosure, I took the GRE only once after about 2 weeks of studying but didn't think it was worth retaking to try to improve my quant, but figured that ED would be the thing to give me a fair shot at GULC. If I have a shot at T13s, I won't bother applying to UCLA or USC. I've already submitted UVA (RD) and I'll wait and see what I hear from Harvard, NYU, etc. Who knows. Thanks for the insight, though!

QContinuum

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby QContinuum » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:55 pm

kate460 wrote:
AJordan wrote:Absolutely do not apply ED. Apply RD and make them back up the money truck. If you don’t get in, and id be shocked, then just take the lsat and apply next year. If you can knock at 340 you can knock at 170.


I must say I'm very surprised to hear this and have no idea who or what to believe. I've read on TLS that T13s will be wanting a GRE in the top 3%ile in each section - my AWA and verbal are 99th, but Quant is only 92nd. Harvard and Gtown have both told me that Q and V will be weighted equally. In the interest of full disclosure, I took the GRE only once after about 2 weeks of studying but didn't think it was worth retaking to try to improve my quant, but figured that ED would be the thing to give me a fair shot at GULC. If I have a shot at T13s, I won't bother applying to UCLA or USC. I've already submitted UVA (RD) and I'll wait and see what I hear from Harvard, NYU, etc. Who knows. Thanks for the insight, though!


I don't think anyone on TLS can say with any certainty what GRE scores the T13 are looking for - there simply isn't enough data out there to say. But based on ETS' GRE to LSAT converter, your GRE score is stellar. Combined with your stellar GPA, I'd be shocked if you weren't considered a top-notch candidate at any of the non-Y/S T13.

Best wishes!

AJordan

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Re: GRE Score for T20?

Postby AJordan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:49 pm

kate460 wrote:
AJordan wrote:Absolutely do not apply ED. Apply RD and make them back up the money truck. If you don’t get in, and id be shocked, then just take the lsat and apply next year. If you can knock at 340 you can knock at 170.


I must say I'm very surprised to hear this and have no idea who or what to believe. I've read on TLS that T13s will be wanting a GRE in the top 3%ile in each section - my AWA and verbal are 99th, but Quant is only 92nd. Harvard and Gtown have both told me that Q and V will be weighted equally. In the interest of full disclosure, I took the GRE only once after about 2 weeks of studying but didn't think it was worth retaking to try to improve my quant, but figured that ED would be the thing to give me a fair shot at GULC. If I have a shot at T13s, I won't bother applying to UCLA or USC. I've already submitted UVA (RD) and I'll wait and see what I hear from Harvard, NYU, etc. Who knows. Thanks for the insight, though!


Yeah, nobody knows as stated. The issue is the money. Paying full freight for GULC is not a good outcome, especially when you don't know if they would give you scholarship money at all. It costs a couple hundred bucks to find out as opposed to the $300,000 bill you're committing to by applying ED. Unless you're on the GI Bill or have a money tree ED is an awful idea almost always and it definitely is at GULC.



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