Data on undergrad average LSAT?

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elransfo

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Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby elransfo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 am

On my LSAC report it shows that the average LSAT score for people who went to my undergraduate school is a 164. How does this compare to other undergrads? I'm curious about ivies, primarily. A 164 seems super low, so I'd like a point of reference (obviously I know what a good LSAT score is, but I want to know what this average says about my school).

It also doesn't show on my LSAC report what the average undergrad GPA is for my school — which is unfortunate, since the average GPA is a 3.1. Does anybody know why it isn't showing that on my report?

cavalier1138

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:58 am

Usually the GPA/LSAT data is based on law school applicants only (because LSAC can only access data from applicants). So your report will show how your GPA compares to other students from your school who applied to law school.

As for the LSAT, it's going to vary significantly by school. But it doesn't really matter, because a 164 from Princeton is going to be treated like a 164 from Ohio State.

ddevich

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby ddevich » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:02 pm

A 164 average for any given school is, in my opinion (not backed by any data), pretty high. That means that the average LSAT taker at that school scores above the 90th percentile. I think living in the bubble that is TLS makes 170+ seem like the norm, when it is far from it.

elransfo

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby elransfo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:13 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
As for the LSAT, it's going to vary significantly by school. But it doesn't really matter, because a 164 from Princeton is going to be treated like a 164 from Ohio State.


It matters in the sense that it demonstrates how competitive of a school you went to (taking this from Mike MS9, who wrote in another thread that this will show an admissions person what your undergrad was like). Everyone knows Princeton, obviously, but I went to a lesser known small liberal arts school and I'm curious if this average indicates anything good about my school. I read that the average from Harvard undergrad is a 165, but I that was from a 2009 post.

For the record, I'm not asking if 164 is a good score. I scored well, well above that. What I'm asking is, is that a mean that is comparable to schools like Princeton.

goldenbear2020

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby goldenbear2020 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:17 pm

Ivy Leagues have average LSATs in the 164-166 range, so a 164 average places your undergrad near the top.

cavalier1138

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:19 pm

elransfo wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
As for the LSAT, it's going to vary significantly by school. But it doesn't really matter, because a 164 from Princeton is going to be treated like a 164 from Ohio State.


It matters in the sense that it demonstrates how competitive of a school you went to (taking this from Mike MS9, who wrote in another thread that this will show an admissions person what your undergrad was like). Everyone knows Princeton, obviously, but I went to a lesser known small liberal arts school and I'm curious if this average indicates anything good about my school. I read that the average from Harvard undergrad is a 165, but I that was from a 2009 post.

For the record, I'm not asking if 164 is a good score. I scored well, well above that. What I'm asking is, is that a mean that is comparable to schools like Princeton.


You're overthinking this. Your numbers speak for themselves. If your undergrad had a unique grading system (like a forced curve, etc.), that might be worth an addendum. But an adcomm is not going to look at your school's average LSAT and say, "Gee, I guess they went a good school, better bump their GPA up a few points."

nice

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby nice » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:24 pm

nice, you went to school with people who scored well on test

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby totesTheGoat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:39 pm

elransfo wrote:It matters in the sense that it demonstrates how competitive of a school you went to (taking this from Mike MS9, who wrote in another thread that this will show an admissions person what your undergrad was like).


I'm skeptical. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that adcomms would even access the average LSATs of other schools to compare. What does that tell the adcomm about your LSAT score? Nothing. It's a standardized test, so your score is your score.

Are you trying to use it to say that your GPA should be weighted differently? I don't think it's that simple. Just because the 5 students from your school scored as well as the 50 students from Princeton (I'm just making numbers up) doesn't mean that your school is all of a sudden the same as Princeton. I'm trying to remember back to my social science stats classes, but I'm pretty sure there's some self-selection bias issues there.

Maybe I'm missing the point because I went to a well known state flagship school, but why do you care about how comparable your school is to the ivies? As far as I know, school prestige has almost nothing to do with admissions decisions. Maybe there's a rough categorization that takes place, but it would be a tertiary consideration as far as I know. Do you feel like you somehow have to justify your GPA because you're afraid the adcomms won't have heard of your school? I don't think it works that way.

As far as competitiveness of school being at issue, if law schools cared about competitiveness, they'd pay more attention to applicants' majors and give a bigger boost to those coming from difficult and competitive majors. The fact that an applicant's major is only a minor consideration shows that adcomms really only care about LSAT, GPA, and URM status.

elransfo

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby elransfo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:55 pm

It demonstrates how competitive your classmates were. Look, I'm not making excuses or even really looking for input on this lol I just wanted data so I knew how that number looked as compared to numbers from other schools. Ty to the person who gave me that.

Obviously LSAT matters most, GPA matters second most, everything else is a softer factor. I am interested in interpreting one such soft factor (undergrad prestige). My school did have a highly unique grading system, and nobody has gotten a 4.0 in years — I am noting that in an addendum.

elransfo

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby elransfo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:58 pm

totesTheGoat wrote:
elransfo wrote:It matters in the sense that it demonstrates how competitive of a school you went to (taking this from Mike MS9, who wrote in another thread that this will show an admissions person what your undergrad was like).I'm skeptical. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that adcomms would even access the average LSATs of other schools to compare. What does that tell the adcomm about your LSAT score? Nothing. It's a standardized test, so your score is your score.




The adcomms have access to every single applicant's average undergrad LSAT if you submitted through LSAC. It shows on the Academic Summary Report under Transcript Analysis.

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urmlaw17

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby urmlaw17 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:13 pm

Here are the Mean LSATs for the top 240 feeders to law school.

https://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data ... accessible

elransfo

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby elransfo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:14 pm

urmlaw17 wrote:Here are the Mean LSATs for the top 240 feeders to law school.

https://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data ... accessible



Ah, thank you so much!!

icechicken

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby icechicken » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:26 pm

Was about to post that same link.

Schools with averages around 164: Brown, Penn, Duke, Northwestern, Wesleyan, Georgetown, WashU, Rice, Amherst. That's pretty elite company, although a hair behind Stanford/Chicago/Columbia/Princeton/Dartmouth at 166-67 or Harvard/Yale around 168. I'd love to see how CalTech or MIT students do but their populations are too small to make this list.

As others have said, this isn't going to make a difference in how your cycle turns out. There's obviously a correlation between these high averages and what we think of as prestigious undergraduate programs but it would be silly, for a number of reasons, to use these LSAT data as a proxy for the overall "quality" of the respective student bodies. Even if it were, undergraduate quality isn't a big factor in law-school admissions anyway.

MonicaYoung_LOL

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby MonicaYoung_LOL » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:27 pm

There's also this thread, which has some LACs that aren't included on the "top feeder" list:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19882

EDIT: This might be slightly outdated by a point or two, but it still has the basic gist.

elransfo

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby elransfo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:30 pm

Awesome, this is just what I was looking for. Thanks!

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ms9

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Re: Data on undergrad average LSAT?

Postby ms9 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:14 pm

totesTheGoat wrote:
elransfo wrote:It matters in the sense that it demonstrates how competitive of a school you went to (taking this from Mike MS9, who wrote in another thread that this will show an admissions person what your undergrad was like).


I'm skeptical. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that adcomms would even access the average LSATs of other schools to compare. What does that tell the adcomm about your LSAT score? Nothing. It's a standardized test, so your score is your score.

.


They automatically get the "LCM" (the name for the medians of all law schools) so they don't have to access them. It's there for them. It's just a small data point to tell you "holy smokes the kids at Transylvania University in KY are really smart and thus I'm impressed with that school" etc.



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