Is Fordham a good law school?

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Wild Card

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby Wild Card » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:40 pm

Tell them to give you a full-tuition scholarship and cost-of-living stipend, or you'll walk.

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AvatarMeelo

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby AvatarMeelo » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:07 pm

dlutfy wrote:I got accepted into Fordham with a 135 k scholarship. In tuition and fees, I'll be paying 15k a year.

I want to do biglaw. According to LST, Fordham as a 41 percent big law + federal clerkship rate, which seems really good for a school ranked in the 30s. Is this a good school for me?

I have a 3.93 and a 167. I'm taking again in February because I have bad text anxiety. I took PT 83 without studying since September and I got a 174, so I think I'm gonna improve.

My only other options right now are Seton Hall at a full scholarship and George Washington with the same 135k scholarship. I was dinged at Cornell, and I'm waiting to hear from NYU, Columbia, Chicago, and Upenn.


I'm stupidly debt-averse so I sympathize with you on taking the money and running with it. BUT, everyone else here does have a point in that all these other schools are waaayy better at getting to that BigLaw goal of yours. Dude, I wish I could back to college and fix my GPA but I can't, so please don't waste yours. Hopefully you do so much better in February, and in the meantime bang out some really great applications! With a higher score and some negotiating, I'd be surprised if you didn't get into better schools with money. I think it's so much better if you retake February, and then come back here when all your apps are submitted and you're receiving your initial scholarship offers. Although at that point, people might tell you to reapply next cycle for a better outcome...

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby dlutfy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:47 pm

AvatarMeelo wrote:
dlutfy wrote:I got accepted into Fordham with a 135 k scholarship. In tuition and fees, I'll be paying 15k a year.

I want to do biglaw. According to LST, Fordham as a 41 percent big law + federal clerkship rate, which seems really good for a school ranked in the 30s. Is this a good school for me?

I have a 3.93 and a 167. I'm taking again in February because I have bad text anxiety. I took PT 83 without studying since September and I got a 174, so I think I'm gonna improve.

My only other options right now are Seton Hall at a full scholarship and George Washington with the same 135k scholarship. I was dinged at Cornell, and I'm waiting to hear from NYU, Columbia, Chicago, and Upenn.


I'm stupidly debt-averse so I sympathize with you on taking the money and running with it. BUT, everyone else here does have a point in that all these other schools are waaayy better at getting to that BigLaw goal of yours. Dude, I wish I could back to college and fix my GPA but I can't, so please don't waste yours. Hopefully you do so much better in February, and in the meantime bang out some really great applications! With a higher score and some negotiating, I'd be surprised if you didn't get into better schools with money. I think it's so much better if you retake February, and then come back here when all your apps are submitted and you're receiving your initial scholarship offers. Although at that point, people might tell you to reapply next cycle for a better outcome...


I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:51 pm

dlutfy wrote:I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.


$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby FN-2187 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:02 pm

dlutfy wrote: I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.


Perhaps I'm wrong, and if so, someone can correct, but I don't think anything can guarantee you big law. The line of thought is the top schools improve your outcomes—but a 50/50 chance is still not a guarantee.
Last edited by FN-2187 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby dlutfy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:44 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
dlutfy wrote:I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.


$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.


I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby FN-2187 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:47 pm

dlutfy wrote: I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.


It's not that's top third is unfeasible, it's that no one can predict or go into law school expecting to beat the curve.
Last edited by FN-2187 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

cavalier1138

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:51 pm

dlutfy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
dlutfy wrote:I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.


$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.


I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.


It's not actually 50% (more like 65-80%, depending on the school and ignoring self-selecting PI). And you don't have to be in the top half of the class, because the median at T13 schools is immense, even compared to schools like Fordham. You cannot plan on beating the curve, which is why you should go to a school where you don't have to.

Put it this way: If you want biglaw from Duke (random pick), you have to make mistakes (pretty major ones) to miss out on it. If you want biglaw from Fordham, you're going to have to compete for it. And as has been constantly said in this thread, Fordham for free is a fine choice. But you should already have much better options for your goals.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby dlutfy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:57 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
dlutfy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
dlutfy wrote:I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.


$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.


I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.


It's not actually 50% (more like 65-80%, depending on the school and ignoring self-selecting PI). And you don't have to be in the top half of the class, because the median at T13 schools is immense, even compared to schools like Fordham. You cannot plan on beating the curve, which is why you should go to a school where you don't have to.

Put it this way: If you want biglaw from Duke (random pick), you have to make mistakes (pretty major ones) to miss out on it. If you want biglaw from Fordham, you're going to have to compete for it. And as has been constantly said in this thread, Fordham for free is a fine choice. But you should already have much better options for your goals.


How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby FN-2187 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:01 pm

dlutfy wrote:How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.


That's how the curve works. I'm sure someone can explain better than I can.

Edit to put this explanation from another thread by Nony

As for curves - different schools apply curves differently. Some schools say "the class median must be a B+" with no other restrictions. In such a class, 24 out of 26 students could get B+s, with one A and one C. Some schools mandate a distribution, so that each class has to have a certain number of each grade, so you could have say max 20% of the class gets a B+, even if the median still has to be a B+. Far fewer students get a median grade at the latter kind of school; more students get below-median grades. With respect to getting a job, class rank is usually more important than raw GPA, so being able to say you're at median - even if 70% if your class has median grades - sounds better than saying you're below median. So you can actually be much lower in your class at, say, Columbia (no forced distribution), than at, say, BC (forced distribution), without it hurting your job prospects as much. (Also of course Columbia just has better job prospects than BC, so employers are more willing to go lower in class rank from Columbia than BC, but it helps that the median at Columbia is so wide.)

(Shorter way of putting this: profs at Columbia don't have to give grades below a certain letter - I don't know if it's B-? or any? Profs at some schools *have* to give C-range grades, even Ds/Fs - though I don't think you're going to run into this at T20-30 schools.)'
Last edited by FN-2187 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

cavalier1138

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:06 pm

dlutfy wrote:How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.


Quite the opposite, actually. That's not how the curve works, and that's not how competition works in law school. For starters, a number of T13 schools don't actually rank students, but as mentioned, the median is much larger. For example, take these two sample schools:

School A
10 20 30 40 50 50 50 60 70 80 90 100
Median: 50

School B
40 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 65 80 90 100
Median: 50

See how it would be easier to be at or above the median at School B? And how it's much easier to end up below median at School A? Fordham's curve probably doesn't look like either, but it's closer to A than to B. It's much, much easier to perform at median at a T13, because their curves generally look like School B's curve does. And on top of that, they're much less competitive environments, because no one is worried that they aren't going to be able to get a decent job if they don't beat the curve.

ETA: scooped. Still posting this in case it helps with visualizing the difference.

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Re: Is Fordham a good law school?

Postby dlutfy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:36 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
dlutfy wrote:How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.


Quite the opposite, actually. That's not how the curve works, and that's not how competition works in law school. For starters, a number of T13 schools don't actually rank students, but as mentioned, the median is much larger. For example, take these two sample schools:

School A
10 20 30 40 50 50 50 60 70 80 90 100
Median: 50

School B
40 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 65 80 90 100
Median: 50

See how it would be easier to be at or above the median at School B? And how it's much easier to end up below median at School A? Fordham's curve probably doesn't look like either, but it's closer to A than to B. It's much, much easier to perform at median at a T13, because their curves generally look like School B's curve does. And on top of that, they're much less competitive environments, because no one is worried that they aren't going to be able to get a decent job if they don't beat the curve.

ETA: scooped. Still posting this in case it helps with visualizing the difference.


Okay that makes complete sense. I didn't know that. Thank you.



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