Is Fordham a good law school? Forum

[cavalier1138]

If you want to do biglaw, a T13 is a much better bet, and a few more points on the LSAT will get you a T13 with money.

Don't look at whether a school is good for its placement in the rankings. Look at whether a school is a good fit for your goals.

[HydroFlask666]

PointPlace is right. This seems like an objectively bad outcome with your stats. Did you agree to do the interview? Did you slack off on the app where it asks your reasons for wanting to go to Cornell and who influenced you to apply? See the following:

http://mylsn.info/989qeb/

[cavalier1138]

I would live with my parents so I wouldn't have that debt. My LSAT is below median at every t14 so I don't see how it's that bad. I only have to be in the top 40 percent of Fordham to get biglaw, and I don't think that's too bad of a bet. If I can't be in the top 40 percent of biglaw there's no reason to think I would be in the top 65/70 percent of NYU, UVA, or Penn.

That's not how it works.

The schools you mentioned are actually much less competitive than Fordham, because the students there know that they don't necessarily have to beat the median to get a good job. You also need to look at the numbers over time. Fordham's biglaw numbers jumped up a lot last year. They tend to hover around 33% biglaw/FC placement, and regardless, that's a hell of a lot less than any of the T13.

It is beyond ridiculous to count on yourself to place in the top third of your class in law school but not to squeeze out a few more points on a learnable standardized test. Stop talking yourself out of the right decision. Law school isn't going anywhere.

ETA: I also agree that you underperformed your numbers. You should have some lower T13 acceptances as is.

[cavalier1138]

PointPlace is right. This seems like an objectively bad outcome with your stats. Did you agree to do the interview? Did you slack off on the app where it asks your reasons for wanting to go to Cornell and who influenced you to apply? See the following:

http://mylsn.info/989qeb/

I declined the interview. I didn't really want to go to Cornell, even for a huge scholarship. I have really bad seasonal affective disorder and the weather up there would exacerbate it.

I'm also not necessarily going to Fordham. I just wanted to know what people think, but I can't imagine any of the schools I'm waiting on to give me more scholarship. I'd rather do Fordham with my scholarship than Upenn for sticker.

Obviously me retaking and getting a 170+ is optimal, but I can't see any schools in the top 14 giving me money with my stats. I'm debt averse and I don't see the point of going into debt to get biglaw. I'd rather take a risk at Fordham and bet on myself being in the top 40 percent.

This is objectively silly.

Why not bet on yourself getting that 170+ and getting money in the T13? You might still get money in the lower T13 with your current numbers, but a 170+ puts you in full ride territory.

You cannot bet on beating the median. You cannot bet that Fordham's biglaw jump will hold steady for another couple of years.

[dlutfy]

Why does everyone in this thread think I'm not gonna retake? I said in my original post I'm gonna retake in February and I said in multiple responses I'm gonna retake.

I don't think you aren't going to retake. I think you're going to make a dumb decision and go to Fordham instead of a school that gives you a much, much, much better shot at your career goals.

If you stop talking about how you're going to "bet on yourself" doing well at Fordham, I think people might start to believe that you're serious about retaking and getting better options.

I'm registered for the February test. lmao. What are you talking about?

[chargers21]

Fwiw, Ithaca weather is not that much worse than NYC and your numbers are capable of pulling a 120k scholarship to Cornell. I think you made a poor choice to blow off the interview.

Aside from that, if your app doesn't suck you have a good chance at paying at or near full price at one of NYU, Penn, or UChi even with your current numbers. Almost guaranteed ding at Columbia.

If you have serious SAD you probably should consider Duke or Berkeley

[dlutfy]

Fwiw, Ithaca weather is not that much worse than NYC and your numbers are capable of pulling a 120k scholarship to Cornell. I think you made a poor choice to blow off the interview.

Aside from that, if your app doesn't suck you have a good chance at paying at or near full price at one of NYU, Penn, or UChi even with your current numbers. Almost guaranteed ding at Columbia.

If you have serious SAD you probably should consider Duke or Berkeley

Do you think those schools at sticker are better options than going to Fordham for no debt?

[chargers21]

Fwiw, Ithaca weather is not that much worse than NYC and your numbers are capable of pulling a 120k scholarship to Cornell. I think you made a poor choice to blow off the interview.

Aside from that, if your app doesn't suck you have a good chance at paying at or near full price at one of NYU, Penn, or UChi even with your current numbers. Almost guaranteed ding at Columbia.

If you have serious SAD you probably should consider Duke or Berkeley

Do you think those schools at sticker are better options than going to Fordham for no debt?

I think neither are great ideas for biglaw. But 3.9+ and 167 is 90%+ acceptance at UChi on lsn iirc so it is something to think about if you were locked into a PI/Gov track and were planning on LRAP. You could get Duke with 75k scholarship and be warm and in sunshine. Plus low COL and a high BL placement

[HydroFlask666]

Did you write a Why Duke, OP? Seems like Duke has been waitlisting a lot of people they shouldn’t be waitlisting, maybe since it is so early in the cycle, I dunno.

[dlutfy]

Did you write a Why Duke, OP? Seems like Duke has been waitlisting a lot of people they shouldn’t be waitlisting, maybe since it is so early in the cycle, I dunno.

Yeah I did. Having a bad cycle.

[bruiserwoods12]

You're already in at Fordham, with a great scholarship offer! Seems like a great alternative if the Feb test doesn't go the way you'd like and you don't end up with offers at better schools.

[cavalier1138]

For what it's worth, I was a legal recruiter in NYC for a large corporate firm and we always interviewed Fordham alumni.

But what about OCI? And how many Fordham students are getting hired (not interviewed) by that firm?

If the OP didn't have numbers for a much, much better school, no one would be dead-set against them going to Fordham. But going to Fordham over a lower T13 with a decent scholarship is just absurd.

[pancakes3]

1) Ppl are jumping on you bc you seem deadset on attending this cycle regardless of how February shakes out. If you get a 165 in Feb, will you take Fordham? If you're dedicated on sitting out this cycle, why not wait until June or Oct when you have more time to study?

2) "betting on myself to finish in the top 40%" is idiot talk for "i don't want to retake the LSAT" and TLS doesn't buy it.

3) we're not saying that Fordham is objectively bad, but for someone with a 3.97 it's a poor decision. there's no reason why you have to go to Fordham while someone with a worse GPA gets to go to Columbia/NYU. where's your confident "bet on myself" attitude on that one?

4) it sucks that you had a bad cycle but that doesn't mean you have to resign yourself to it. do better.

[dlutfy]

For what it's worth, I was a legal recruiter in NYC for a large corporate firm and we always interviewed Fordham alumni. I have friends currently at Fordham and they have BigLaw associateships lined up at top 10 NYC law firms. They did well, but they didn't kill themselves and have not found it to be insanely competitive to get BigLaw interviews. Most also chose Fordham for large scholarships.

Bottom line: You're already in at Fordham, with a great scholarship offer! Seems like a great alternative if the Feb test doesn't go the way you'd like and you don't end up with offers at better schools.

Thank you. I really can't believe people in this thread act like Fordham is an outside chance at biglaw. Fordham places great within NYC and has 14 associates at Cravath. For comparison, Cornell has 16. I know the associate number at the top firm isn't the end all be all, but it seems like Fordham grads have plenty of options.

[chargers21]

For what it's worth, I was a legal recruiter in NYC for a large corporate firm and we always interviewed Fordham alumni. I have friends currently at Fordham and they have BigLaw associateships lined up at top 10 NYC law firms. They did well, but they didn't kill themselves and have not found it to be insanely competitive to get BigLaw interviews. Most also chose Fordham for large scholarships.

Bottom line: You're already in at Fordham, with a great scholarship offer! Seems like a great alternative if the Feb test doesn't go the way you'd like and you don't end up with offers at better schools.

Thank you. I really can't believe people in this thread act like Fordham is an outside chance at biglaw. Fordham places great within NYC and has 14 associates at Cravath. For comparison, Cornell has 16. I know the associate number at the top firm isn't the end all be all, but it seems like Fordham grads have plenty of options.

Fyi, Fordham is over twice the size of Cornell.

[Wild Card]

Tell them to give you a full-tuition scholarship and cost-of-living stipend, or you'll walk.

[cavalier1138]

I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.

$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.

[FN-2187]

I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and if so, someone can correct, but I don't think anything can guarantee you big law. The line of thought is the top schools improve your outcomes—but a 50/50 chance is still not a guarantee.

[dlutfy]

I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.

$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.

I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.

[FN-2187]

I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.

It's not that's top third is unfeasible, it's that no one can predict or go into law school expecting to beat the curve.

[cavalier1138]

I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.

$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.

I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.

It's not actually 50% (more like 65-80%, depending on the school and ignoring self-selecting PI). And you don't have to be in the top half of the class, because the median at T13 schools is immense, even compared to schools like Fordham. You cannot plan on beating the curve, which is why you should go to a school where you don't have to.

Put it this way: If you want biglaw from Duke (random pick), you have to make mistakes (pretty major ones) to miss out on it. If you want biglaw from Fordham, you're going to have to compete for it. And as has been constantly said in this thread, Fordham for free is a fine choice. But you should already have much better options for your goals.

[dlutfy]

I agree t14 is better, but I have to pay for it with my current LSAT score. I'd rather have to be in the top third for free than be guaranteed big law for 120k.

$120k would be a pretty damn good price for a T13.

This is the reason people keep coming down on you in this thread. If your only goal is a job at a big firm, then you shouldn't go to a school where the chances of that outcome are anything less than 50%, and you shouldn't keep returning to this weird idea that you can totally end up in the top third of your class.

I don't see why top third is so unfeasible but 50 percent is acceptable. I'd rather not be 100k in debt for the extra 20 percent cushion.

It's not actually 50% (more like 65-80%, depending on the school and ignoring self-selecting PI). And you don't have to be in the top half of the class, because the median at T13 schools is immense, even compared to schools like Fordham. You cannot plan on beating the curve, which is why you should go to a school where you don't have to.

Put it this way: If you want biglaw from Duke (random pick), you have to make mistakes (pretty major ones) to miss out on it. If you want biglaw from Fordham, you're going to have to compete for it. And as has been constantly said in this thread, Fordham for free is a fine choice. But you should already have much better options for your goals.

How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.

[FN-2187]

How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.

That's how the curve works. I'm sure someone can explain better than I can.

Edit to put this explanation from another thread by Nony

As for curves - different schools apply curves differently. Some schools say "the class median must be a B+" with no other restrictions. In such a class, 24 out of 26 students could get B+s, with one A and one C. Some schools mandate a distribution, so that each class has to have a certain number of each grade, so you could have say max 20% of the class gets a B+, even if the median still has to be a B+. Far fewer students get a median grade at the latter kind of school; more students get below-median grades. With respect to getting a job, class rank is usually more important than raw GPA, so being able to say you're at median - even if 70% if your class has median grades - sounds better than saying you're below median. So you can actually be much lower in your class at, say, Columbia (no forced distribution), than at, say, BC (forced distribution), without it hurting your job prospects as much. (Also of course Columbia just has better job prospects than BC, so employers are more willing to go lower in class rank from Columbia than BC, but it helps that the median at Columbia is so wide.)

(Shorter way of putting this: profs at Columbia don't have to give grades below a certain letter - I don't know if it's B-? or any? Profs at some schools *have* to give C-range grades, even Ds/Fs - though I don't think you're going to run into this at T20-30 schools.)'

[cavalier1138]

How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.

Quite the opposite, actually. That's not how the curve works, and that's not how competition works in law school. For starters, a number of T13 schools don't actually rank students, but as mentioned, the median is much larger. For example, take these two sample schools:

School A
10 20 30 40 50 50 50 60 70 80 90 100
Median: 50

School B
40 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 65 80 90 100
Median: 50

See how it would be easier to be at or above the median at School B? And how it's much easier to end up below median at School A? Fordham's curve probably doesn't look like either, but it's closer to A than to B. It's much, much easier to perform at median at a T13, because their curves generally look like School B's curve does. And on top of that, they're much less competitive environments, because no one is worried that they aren't going to be able to get a decent job if they don't beat the curve.

ETA: scooped. Still posting this in case it helps with visualizing the difference.

[dlutfy]

How can you bet on being the top 60 percent at a t13? Presumably the students are better than at Fordham so you have the same competition for a lower spot in the class.

Quite the opposite, actually. That's not how the curve works, and that's not how competition works in law school. For starters, a number of T13 schools don't actually rank students, but as mentioned, the median is much larger. For example, take these two sample schools:

School A
10 20 30 40 50 50 50 60 70 80 90 100
Median: 50

School B
40 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 65 80 90 100
Median: 50

See how it would be easier to be at or above the median at School B? And how it's much easier to end up below median at School A? Fordham's curve probably doesn't look like either, but it's closer to A than to B. It's much, much easier to perform at median at a T13, because their curves generally look like School B's curve does. And on top of that, they're much less competitive environments, because no one is worried that they aren't going to be able to get a decent job if they don't beat the curve.

ETA: scooped. Still posting this in case it helps with visualizing the difference.

Okay that makes complete sense. I didn't know that. Thank you.