Can you get into a t14 with a 3.8 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

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sash

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Can you get into a t14 with a 3.8 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:06 pm

I intensely studied for the LSAT for 4 months like it was a full time job and my prep test score was always around 158-161. I got a 158 on the LSAT, same as my very first prep test. I can’t imagine getting a +10 point boost, I don’t even know where to start.
I applied to Stanford (reaching I know), Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Fordham, UC Davis, UCI. And some lower ranked schools in CA that I should get a lot of merit scholarship money from.
It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.
I’m scared to take more time off to LSAT study and still end up right back where I started or maybe I bump it to a 163 and I’m still a splitter for schools like UCLA. That year would be postponing a year where I could be making 85k/year salary.
Last edited by sash on Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:11 pm

You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:15 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:22 pm

sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets), and then a cluster around say $40-60k for small law firms, public defenders, prosecutors, legal aid attorneys, some public interest jobs. There *are* jobs that offer salaries in between, but fewer, and not easy to find. So you may want to think more about what kind of job you want to get out of school (apart from salary), and consider whether the schools you're considering can get you that job.

(In many cases it does make more sense to go to a lower-ranked school for free, if you're aiming for one of the lower-paying kinds of jobs or want to have flexibility on what job you take and not be weighed down by debt. The problem is that if you're aiming for the top-paying legal jobs, your best chance is to go to a top ranked school, and it can be very hard to do that without taking on serious debt.)

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:23 pm

sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place

People have done it before, with even bigger increases. I increased 18 points on my diagnostic after 6 months of studying. While I wasn't working full time, I was in school full time and working 25 hours a week plus extra curriculars. I know its not the same but I was very busy while studying and I managed to fill in around 20 hours of studying per week.

Hit up the LSAT forum for detailed advice, but I highly recommend a 7sage course and the LSAT Trainer by Mike Kim.
Last edited by Slippin' Jimmy on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Barack O'Drama » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:23 pm

sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place


Of course it's possible. But it's likely going to take longer than 4 months. I've been studying for a year on and off because of my work schedule and have seen about a 10 pt improvement.
Last edited by Barack O'Drama on Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:24 pm

No idea where you're getting 100k from. Legal salaries are pretty bimodal, so ~$60k is the much more likely outcome.
e: scooped by nony.
Last edited by Rigo on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets)



I’m speaking based off of my thoroughly analyzing ABA 509 employment stats for many schools. It’s not a sliding scale, there’s employment stats for each school, you’re probably aware of that. I’m looking at where the majority of people end up for each school, including the states they end up in, hence my focus on California schools.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:28 pm

sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets)



I’m speaking based off of my thoroughly analyzing ABA 509 employment stats for many schools. It’s not a sliding scale, there’s employment stats for each school, you’re probably aware of that. I’m looking at where the majority of people end up for each school, including the states they end up in, hence my focus on California schools.

So what school guarantees a $100k salary and what school guarantees an $85k salary?

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:32 pm

sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place



First, as others have pointed out, there really isn't such a thing as a 100k job out of school. Its either 160/180k or 60k. The bimodal distribution in salaries is clear.

Second, you can have a drastic change in scores. I myself took my first diagnostic at a 142. It took me 3 lsat administrations, but I received a real score of over 170. Nomy can confirm the score.

It took me a full year of studying and 3 actual tests. I did over 200 practice tests. I was in grad school full time and working pretty much full time as well. My schedule was something like 7am-3pm or so class, 3-9/10pm work, then 9/10pm until midnight studying. I would then review while eating breakfast the next day. I would then take one day off a weekend, and the other day was 2 practice tests in a row.

It can be done as I am living proof. That year sucked and it was hard on me, my family, and my friends. But if you want something bad enough, you will stop with the excuses and work to achieve it. My first official lsat score was in the mid 150s. It was a 20 point gain from my first test to my third, and a 30 point gain from my first diagnostic.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:33 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets)



I’m speaking based off of my thoroughly analyzing ABA 509 employment stats for many schools. It’s not a sliding scale, there’s employment stats for each school, you’re probably aware of that. I’m looking at where the majority of people end up for each school, including the states they end up in, hence my focus on California schools.

So what school guarantees a $100k salary and what school guarantees an $85k salary?


Idk if you’re just butthurt by my using the word “guarantees” but feel free to google ABA 509 employment stats [insert law school name] and you can see where the majority of students fall in each class.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby carsondalywashere » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:34 pm

You can do it. I think it took me four months of nearly full-time studying to improve 10-15 points. I ended up improving by over 25 points.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby carsondalywashere » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:35 pm

sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets)



I’m speaking based off of my thoroughly analyzing ABA 509 employment stats for many schools. It’s not a sliding scale, there’s employment stats for each school, you’re probably aware of that. I’m looking at where the majority of people end up for each school, including the states they end up in, hence my focus on California schools.

So what school guarantees a $100k salary and what school guarantees an $85k salary?


Idk if you’re just butthurt by my using the word “guarantees” but feel free to google ABA 509 employment stats [insert law school name] and you can see where the majority of students fall in each class.

You're either making 60k (or less) or 180 (or whatever entry-level home market salary is). Mid law salaries do exist, but no school is putting over half of their students in those kinds of mid law jobs.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:37 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place



First, as others have pointed out, there really isn't such a thing as a 100k job out of school. Its either 160/180k or 60k. The bimodal distribution in salaries is clear.

.


So it’s like a 50/50 chance of making 60k or 160k unless you’re in a t14 ?

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:39 pm

sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place



First, as others have pointed out, there really isn't such a thing as a 100k job out of school. Its either 160/180k or 60k. The bimodal distribution in salaries is clear.

.


So it’s like a 50/50 chance of making 60k or 160k unless you’re in a t14 ?

No no no. Way worse chances of making 160k
You're grossly uninformed/misinformed.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:40 pm

Minor side note: it's $180k now, not $160k. That doesn't change the very slim likelihood of you achieving that from the schools you'll get into though.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:41 pm

Rigo wrote:
sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place



First, as others have pointed out, there really isn't such a thing as a 100k job out of school. Its either 160/180k or 60k. The bimodal distribution in salaries is clear.

.


So it’s like a 50/50 chance of making 60k or 160k unless you’re in a t14 ?

No no no. Way worse chances of making 160k
You're grossly uninformed/misinformed.


I don’t understand why y’all are so into just saying “you’re wrong” rather than explaining? I’m just looking at ABA 509 stars and seeing where people end up. Idk where else I should be looking. sorry I wasn’t an Econ major. Do t14 schools guarantee any salary or they also end up mostly at 60k too /what
Last edited by sash on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:42 pm

sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets)



I’m speaking based off of my thoroughly analyzing ABA 509 employment stats for many schools. It’s not a sliding scale, there’s employment stats for each school, you’re probably aware of that. I’m looking at where the majority of people end up for each school, including the states they end up in, hence my focus on California schools.

So what school guarantees a $100k salary and what school guarantees an $85k salary?


Idk if you’re just butthurt by my using the word “guarantees” but feel free to google ABA 509 employment stats [insert law school name] and you can see where the majority of students fall in each class.

You get that median =/= average, right? So a median salary of $100k doesn't actually tell you how many people make $100k - just that that's the middle of the salary range? And an average of $116k also doesn't tell you how many people are making that? The average could just as easily be half very high and half very low salaries, rather than that the average is what the average grad makes.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby carsondalywashere » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:44 pm

sash wrote:
Rigo wrote:
sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
sash wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:You aren't going to get into any of those schools you listed. You need to retake.

I get that everyone has the “you need to retake” attitude but is it really feasible to get your LSAT score up like 10 points? While working a full time job? It just doesn’t seem realistic. Also, again, even getting into those schools, aside from Stanford, i’ll be making 100k a year and paying off student loans until i’m 40 and not able to live in a nice place



First, as others have pointed out, there really isn't such a thing as a 100k job out of school. Its either 160/180k or 60k. The bimodal distribution in salaries is clear.

.


So it’s like a 50/50 chance of making 60k or 160k unless you’re in a t14 ?

No no no. Way worse chances of making 160k
You're grossly uninformed/misinformed.


I don’t understand why y’all are so into just saying “you’re wrong” rather than explaining? I’m just looking at ABA 509 stars and seeing where people end up. Idk where else I should be looking. sorry I wasn’t an Econ major. Do t14 schools guarantee any salary or they also end up mostly at 60k too /what


https://www.lstreports.com/schools/

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:45 pm

No school guarantees a salary.
These percentages are a pretty good measure of your "chances" of getting the highest salary (in a biglaw firm) at a given school.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=276222

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby sash » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:47 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sash wrote:It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.

Just to be clear, this isn't how legal salaries work. It's not like there's a sliding scale that starts at $180k for Columbia, decreases to $100k for UCLA or WashU, and keeps going down to $85k as the rankings decline. Legal salaries fall in clusters - there's a cluster at/around $180k for big law firms (a bit less in some secondary markets)



I’m speaking based off of my thoroughly analyzing ABA 509 employment stats for many schools. It’s not a sliding scale, there’s employment stats for each school, you’re probably aware of that. I’m looking at where the majority of people end up for each school, including the states they end up in, hence my focus on California schools.

So what school guarantees a $100k salary and what school guarantees an $85k salary?


Idk if you’re just butthurt by my using the word “guarantees” but feel free to google ABA 509 employment stats [insert law school name] and you can see where the majority of students fall in each class.

You get that median =/= average, right? So a median salary of $100k doesn't actually tell you how many people make $100k - just that that's the middle of the salary range?


I’m just looking at the numbers like ...190 students...160 passed the bar...50 end up at a law firm this size with this 25th percentile salary...20 end up at a law firm this size with this 25th percentile salary...35 end up at a law firm this size with this 25th percentile salary...so it looks like the majority are making a minimum of this salary...

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:53 pm

What school are you looking at? Can you link us?

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.82 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Okay, so this is UCLA's stats (picking a T20 in California).
Image
If you look at the 25th percentile salaries, you'll see there's a big jump between the 25th percentile salary for firms with 251-500 attorneys, and firms smaller than that (and then a big gap to all the non-firm salaries below). About half the 257 grads who reported salary (52%) reported average salaries of over $100k, but within those ranges some of the salaries dip down to $75 or $85k. The percentage of people in those positions are only 45% of employed grads, and about 43% of all grads. So that's very different from saying that a T20 guarantees a $100k job. They're respectable statistics, but not overwhelming odds that you'll end up at $100k at graduation.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.8 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby lobsicle » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:42 pm

sash wrote:I intensely studied for the LSAT for 4 months like it was a full time job and my prep test score was always around 158-161. I got a 158 on the LSAT, same as my very first prep test. I can’t imagine getting a +10 point boost, I don’t even know where to start.
I applied to Stanford (reaching I know), Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Fordham, UC Davis, UCI. And some lower ranked schools in CA that I should get a lot of merit scholarship money from.
It seems like even if I go to a school that guarantees me 100k a year salary (like a top 20 school) I’m still gonna be paying off student loans until I’m like 40 and not able to move out of a shitty one bedroom apartment. So maybe it would be more reasonable to go somewhere that gives me closer to a full ride and guarantees me like at least 85k starting out.
I’m scared to take more time off to LSAT study and still end up right back where I started or maybe I bump it to a 163 and I’m still a splitter for schools like UCLA. That year would be postponing a year where I could be making 85k/year salary.


The honest truth is that if you received the same score as your diagnostic, you just didn't do a very good job studying. You may have put in a ton of effort, but when it comes down to it you need to both study hard and smart. You need to follow a good study plan like this one (viewtopic.php?t=41657) and you WILL get results.

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Re: Can you get into a t14 with a 3.8 gpa/should I retake the LSAT/should I settle for a low ranked school with merit $

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:54 pm

Just stop making excuses and retake. You clearly know it's what you need to do for your goals.



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