ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

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usaorbust
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ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby usaorbust » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:50 pm

Spivey just tweeted. What are your thoughts and how will this affect future cycles.

sparkytrainer
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:56 pm

Well RIP all people who took the lsat.

The lsat is gonna die. The GRE is a significantly easier test, tested more often (like every weekend), and useful for other grad programs. There is no good reason to take the LSAT over the GRE.

All schools will be taking the GRE by next admissions cycle, except maybe Yale.

The biggest winner of this announcement are people with high gpas. This is the death of the splitter. There will be no incentive to take a 3.4 170 when you dont even need an admissions test. Instead, the class will just be high 3.9s with no admissions score.

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xylocarp
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby xylocarp » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:04 pm

Pretty sure Spivey said "recommends" not "decides," which means it's not set in stone yet.

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icechicken
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby icechicken » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:08 pm

The exact wording of Spivey's tweets, for reference:

This is huge and breaking news. In multiple tweets. The ABA Council has recommended...

...that every law school can determine what makes a test valid and reliable for itself or whether or not it will even require an admission test...

As of this moment we are unsure of this recommendation needs to be finalized, or if it is a final decision.


Dave Killoran responded:

Most if not all will still use an admissions test in order to meet Standard 501 about admissions. ABA kicked it to law schools, basically


xylocarp wrote:Pretty sure Spivey said "recommends" not "decides," which means it's not set in stone yet.


Unless friends of LSAC dig their parliamentary heels in, this is probably going to become the rule, though, right?

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Barack O'Drama » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:09 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Well RIP all people who took the lsat.

The lsat is gonna die. The GRE is a significantly easier test, tested more often (like every weekend), and useful for other grad programs. There is no good reason to take the LSAT over the GRE.

All schools will be taking the GRE by next admissions cycle, except maybe Yale.

The biggest winner of this announcement are people with high gpas. This is the death of the splitter. There will be no incentive to take a 3.4 170 when you dont even need an admissions test. Instead, the class will just be high 3.9s with no admissions score.


Yeah, I agree that the biggest cohort affected by this will be splitters. I have a high GPA so I'm wondering what my best move is going forward? Should I still aim to take the LSAT or the GRE? I'm very curious what top schools like HLS will decide to change. If anything, I'm guessing they will keep using the LSAT & GRE?

What does everything else think?

sparkytrainer
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:12 pm

Barack O'Drama wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Well RIP all people who took the lsat.

The lsat is gonna die. The GRE is a significantly easier test, tested more often (like every weekend), and useful for other grad programs. There is no good reason to take the LSAT over the GRE.

All schools will be taking the GRE by next admissions cycle, except maybe Yale.

The biggest winner of this announcement are people with high gpas. This is the death of the splitter. There will be no incentive to take a 3.4 170 when you dont even need an admissions test. Instead, the class will just be high 3.9s with no admissions score.


Yeah, I agree that the biggest cohort affected by this will be splitters. I have a high GPA so I'm wondering what my best move is going forward? Should I still aim to take the LSAT or the GRE? I'm very curious what top schools like HLS will decide to change. If anything, I'm guessing they will keep using the LSAT & GRE?

What does everything else think?


Its probably too early to tell for next year, but this will probably really start affecting outcomes in two years from now. I am willing to bet the t13 will still keep some version of an admissions test, but give people the option of using the LSAT or GRE. The movement has been to that direction anyway. But it also opens up the possibility of just stacking whatever seats for a high GPA median full of high gpa kids without a score to any test.

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icechicken
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby icechicken » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:13 pm

Barack O'Drama wrote:Should I still aim to take the LSAT or the GRE? I'm very curious what top schools like HLS will decide to change. If anything, I'm guessing they will keep using the LSAT & GRE?

What does everything else think?


In light of this news, I'd prep for both if you're applying next year. We might be headed for a landscape where the GRE is better for some schools and the LSAT is better for others. More importantly, this probably means the downside of taking the LSAT, getting a bad score, and reversesplitterpwning oneself will become less of an issue, because I doubt many schools will hamstring themselves by unilaterally preserving the policy of reporting LSATs from people applying with a GRE.

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Barack O'Drama » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:18 pm

icechicken wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Should I still aim to take the LSAT or the GRE? I'm very curious what top schools like HLS will decide to change. If anything, I'm guessing they will keep using the LSAT & GRE?

What does everything else think?


In light of this news, I'd prep for both if you're applying next year. We might be headed for a landscape where the GRE is better for some schools and the LSAT is better for others. More importantly, this probably means the downside of taking the LSAT, getting a bad score, and reversesplitterpwning oneself will become less of an issue, because I doubt many schools will hamstring themselves by unilaterally preserving the policy of reporting LSATs from people applying with a GRE.


Good points! I'm planning in applying next cycle so perhaps I will look into prepping for the GRE as well.

Thanks for your helpful analysis!

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Barack O'Drama » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:21 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Well RIP all people who took the lsat.

The lsat is gonna die. The GRE is a significantly easier test, tested more often (like every weekend), and useful for other grad programs. There is no good reason to take the LSAT over the GRE.

All schools will be taking the GRE by next admissions cycle, except maybe Yale.

The biggest winner of this announcement are people with high gpas. This is the death of the splitter. There will be no incentive to take a 3.4 170 when you dont even need an admissions test. Instead, the class will just be high 3.9s with no admissions score.


Yeah, I agree that the biggest cohort affected by this will be splitters. I have a high GPA so I'm wondering what my best move is going forward? Should I still aim to take the LSAT or the GRE? I'm very curious what top schools like HLS will decide to change. If anything, I'm guessing they will keep using the LSAT & GRE?

What does everything else think?


Its probably too early to tell for next year, but this will probably really start affecting outcomes in two years from now. I am willing to bet the t13 will still keep some version of an admissions test, but give people the option of using the LSAT or GRE. The movement has been to that direction anyway. But it also opens up the possibility of just stacking whatever seats for a high GPA median full of high gpa kids without a score to any test.


It makes sense that the change will be felt in a year or two from now. I just hate the uncertainty of this. I guess the silver lining is my GPA is high but everything else seems up in the air... Then again, part of me feels like I'm overreacting and nothing will change that much for the top schools.

What if all T3 schools begin to let people in with no admission test? Jiminy Christmas ...

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Ira Hayes
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Ira Hayes » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:38 pm

Maybe splitters with both maxed out GRE/LSAT could get a boost or at least not lose that much more ground?

DKilloranPowerScore
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby DKilloranPowerScore » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:38 pm

icechicken wrote:Unless friends of LSAC dig their parliamentary heels in, this is probably going to become the rule, though, right?


Which I think they will do, to be honest. They aren't going to go down without a fight. They've already stated that, "LSAC is disappointed with this outcome and the message it sends...That is why we are concerned that today’s outcome will open the door to exploitation in admissions. We look forward to working with our member schools to assure quality and fairness in law school admission. LSAC will participate in the Notice and Comment period for this decision."

The probable outcome is the one that was most likely from the beginning: both the LSAT and GRE will be used for admissions, with schools choosing whichever one gives them better numbers for each candidate (they still accept both tests, but evaluate candidates on which test produced the best result). Thus, just as with b-school admissions, you'll get your choice of which exam to take, and can choose the one that produces the best results for you. That, to me, is a very desirable outcome for applicants.

Since the ABA proposal indicates that use of an admission test will be evidence of compliance with Standard 501 (see https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam ... eckdam.pdf), I suspect that the lower ranked schools will still use an admissions test, and if b-school is any guide, most schools will continue to require an admissions test.

Crazy times though, and the uncertainty right now is definitely not fair to next year's applicants!

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Platopus
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Platopus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:15 pm

Anyone else curious to see if this leads to a law school admissions model focused less heavily on numbers, and instead takes a B-school/grad school approach and starts placing more emphasis on undergrad prestige, writing samples, work experience, etc.

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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby shinydunsparce » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:24 pm

Is anyone else considering applying this cycle instead of next because of this news? Don't really want to rush in an application but also terrified of how things may change by next year..

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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby MikeSpivey » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:25 pm

Platopus wrote:Anyone else curious to see if this leads to a law school admissions model focused less heavily on numbers, and instead takes a B-school/grad school approach and starts placing more emphasis on undergrad prestige, writing samples, work experience, etc.


Yes, me. I'm thinking if I should triple the size of my firm. Seriously. Good call noticing this.

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Platopus
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Platopus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:26 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
Platopus wrote:Anyone else curious to see if this leads to a law school admissions model focused less heavily on numbers, and instead takes a B-school/grad school approach and starts placing more emphasis on undergrad prestige, writing samples, work experience, etc.


Yes, me. I'm thinking if I should triple the size of my firm. Seriously. Good call noticing this.


Do you see this impacting this cycle or just future cycles?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby MikeSpivey » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:34 pm

Platopus wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
Platopus wrote:Anyone else curious to see if this leads to a law school admissions model focused less heavily on numbers, and instead takes a B-school/grad school approach and starts placing more emphasis on undergrad prestige, writing samples, work experience, etc.


Yes, me. I'm thinking if I should triple the size of my firm. Seriously. Good call noticing this.


Do you see this impacting this cycle or just future cycles?


Well, it's not final until after notice and comment and formal action by the Council (and possibly the section/house of delegates). So probably not this cycle at all. I think what is most likely to happen is you will see just about every school taking the GRE starting next cycle.

Veil of Ignorance
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:36 pm

shinydunsparce wrote:Is anyone else considering applying this cycle instead of next because of this news? Don't really want to rush in an application but also terrified of how things may change by next year..

I don't think you should make such a major decision based upon this news. But I can see where you're coming from.

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Jack_Kelly
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Jack_Kelly » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:40 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
shinydunsparce wrote:Is anyone else considering applying this cycle instead of next because of this news? Don't really want to rush in an application but also terrified of how things may change by next year..

I don't think you should make such a major decision based upon this news. But I can see where you're coming from.

I have a friend who is a 171/2.6 super-splitter who was considering this cycle or next and I increasingly suspect it would be a mistake for her to wait.

Veil of Ignorance
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:44 pm

Jack_Kelly wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
shinydunsparce wrote:Is anyone else considering applying this cycle instead of next because of this news? Don't really want to rush in an application but also terrified of how things may change by next year..

I don't think you should make such a major decision based upon this news. But I can see where you're coming from.

I have a friend who is a 171/2.6 super-splitter who was considering this cycle or next and I increasingly suspect it would be a mistake for her to wait.

OK, I can see it in a situation like that.

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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby shinydunsparce » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:50 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
Jack_Kelly wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
shinydunsparce wrote:Is anyone else considering applying this cycle instead of next because of this news? Don't really want to rush in an application but also terrified of how things may change by next year..

I don't think you should make such a major decision based upon this news. But I can see where you're coming from.

I have a friend who is a 171/2.6 super-splitter who was considering this cycle or next and I increasingly suspect it would be a mistake for her to wait.

OK, I can see it in a situation like that.


My situation is not quite as severe as that, but I am a splitter for almost all the T13 (3.6, 174) so I'm thinking I could shoot myself in the foot by waiting if my LSAT will not hold as much weight by next year.

ctrlaltdelenter
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby ctrlaltdelenter » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:08 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
Platopus wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
Platopus wrote:Anyone else curious to see if this leads to a law school admissions model focused less heavily on numbers, and instead takes a B-school/grad school approach and starts placing more emphasis on undergrad prestige, writing samples, work experience, etc.


Yes, me. I'm thinking if I should triple the size of my firm. Seriously. Good call noticing this.


Do you see this impacting this cycle or just future cycles?


Well, it's not final until after notice and comment and formal action by the Council (and possibly the section/house of delegates). So probably not this cycle at all. I think what is most likely to happen is you will see just about every school taking the GRE starting next cycle.


So if you have a low gpa and a 170 lsat but have gotten a perfect score on the GRE, would it be advantageous to skip this cycle and apply next year in the hopes that your GRE will be the only thing that counts?

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slurp
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby slurp » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:10 pm

My guess is 99% GRE plus median or better GPA is in just as good of a position to get in as 99% LSAT and median+ GPA, likely better than median LSAT 75% GPA.

I think applicants with the more traditional median numbers for both GPA/LSAT (up to ~2011-12 when lowest t14 median were at 169/170+) will be good, or possibly in a better position, if they are certain they can score that high and USN gives more weight to LSAT or equally weighs LSAT/GRE, which is most likely to happen.

A certain selection of traditional 75% LSAT splitters will probably also be fine, but softs will likely be given more weight because there will be enough splitters to choose from to meet 75% goals, since a large portion of the class will filled with GRE students.

A 165 GRE and 165 LSAT (both at ~90% percentile) will probably be looked at equally. There were ~590,000 GRE takers in 2016 compared to ~110,000 LSAT takers in 2016, giving schools a, preseumably, much larger pool of high GPA/95% GRE takers to choose from, why not put more weight on softs if LSAT/GRE are looked at equally in the eyes of USNWR? Or even better, why not go with a higher GRE score, say 97-98% percentile, since there's that many more to choose from?

I'm assuming law schools will try to match business schools GRE numbers, which idk how difficult will be since top law schools do not need that many GRE applicants to get there. Obviously not all GRE takers want to go to law school, so I also think it will take more time for the majority of applicants to think of the GRE instead of LSAT when they are applying to law school. It think it depends mostly on word of mouth.

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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby onecard » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:28 pm

Suppose an applicant has both LSAT and GRE to report? Will USNWR use both tests in it's rankings? And if they do wouldn't more people take both tests and try to get 99% on each, especially if they have a below median GPA?

sparkytrainer
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:28 pm

Jack_Kelly wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
shinydunsparce wrote:Is anyone else considering applying this cycle instead of next because of this news? Don't really want to rush in an application but also terrified of how things may change by next year..

I don't think you should make such a major decision based upon this news. But I can see where you're coming from.

I have a friend who is a 171/2.6 super-splitter who was considering this cycle or next and I increasingly suspect it would be a mistake for her to wait.


Im not an admissions professional, but if I was a splitter, I would be applying ASAP. There may be no such thing next year.

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icechicken
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Re: ABA decides that each school can use whatever test, or no test, they want for admissions

Postby icechicken » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:52 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Im not an admissions professional, but if I was a splitter, I would be applying ASAP. There may be no such thing next year.


I agree that people with strong LSATs should try to cash in ASAP if they can, but the bolded seems a bit extreme. GPA medians may well go up, and that will make things tougher for splitters (because more people will be splitters if and when that happens), but they'll only find themselves dead in the water if GPA floors go up, and there's no particular reason to believe that's about to happen.




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