Apply or not?

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imperspective
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Apply or not?

Postby imperspective » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Hello, I have taken the LSAT four times over the past 4 years.

Fall '17 170
Summer '15 170
Fall '14 168
Fall '13 162

My GPA is 3.96. Male non-urm. I was wait-listed at Harvard two cycles ago and decided not to commit anywhere. I am a non-profit fundraiser and I work as an IT Recruiter and a life coach. What would you do if you were me? Apply again now? I am HYS or bust.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?
Last edited by imperspective on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sparkytrainer
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:52 pm

Your lsat isn't high enough, I expect you to not get in again.

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ljalba
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby ljalba » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:53 pm

If I were you, I wouldn't be HYS or bust.

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imperspective
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby imperspective » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:04 pm

Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?

cavalier1138
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:35 pm

imperspective wrote:Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?


I mean, you don't have the numbers to be HYS-or-bust, but why are you HYS-or-bust in the first place?

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imperspective
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby imperspective » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:08 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
imperspective wrote:Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?


I mean, you don't have the numbers to be HYS-or-bust, but why are you HYS-or-bust in the first place?


Because I feel like I can make it into HYS somehow, either this time or in the future. And I don't want debt unless I'm going to have an extremely exciting career, and I don't think for me that I'll get that outside of HYS.

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UVA2B
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:10 pm

imperspective wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
imperspective wrote:Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?


I mean, you don't have the numbers to be HYS-or-bust, but why are you HYS-or-bust in the first place?


Because I feel like I can make it into HYS somehow, either this time or in the future. And I don't want debt unless I'm going to have an extremely exciting career, and I don't think for me that I'll get that outside of HYS.


You're drastically setting yourself up for disappointment. What careers exist only for HYS grads? Can you point to a single realistic career that exists only for HYS grads?

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imperspective
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby imperspective » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 pm

UVA2B wrote:
imperspective wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
imperspective wrote:Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?


I mean, you don't have the numbers to be HYS-or-bust, but why are you HYS-or-bust in the first place?


Because I feel like I can make it into HYS somehow, either this time or in the future. And I don't want debt unless I'm going to have an extremely exciting career, and I don't think for me that I'll get that outside of HYS.


You're drastically setting yourself up for disappointment. What careers exist only for HYS grads? Can you point to a single realistic career that exists only for HYS grads?


It appears I've been making an unwarranted assumption. I do like logic and the law and am passionate about reasoning, but I don't see myself being happy working in a law firm. What would you do if you were me?

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UVA2B
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:32 pm

imperspective wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
imperspective wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
imperspective wrote:Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?


I mean, you don't have the numbers to be HYS-or-bust, but why are you HYS-or-bust in the first place?


Because I feel like I can make it into HYS somehow, either this time or in the future. And I don't want debt unless I'm going to have an extremely exciting career, and I don't think for me that I'll get that outside of HYS.


You're drastically setting yourself up for disappointment. What careers exist only for HYS grads? Can you point to a single realistic career that exists only for HYS grads?


It appears I've been making an unwarranted assumption. I do like logic and the law and am passionate about reasoning, but I don't see myself being happy working in a law firm. What would you do if you were me?


I'm an almost clinical pragmatist, so I might not be the best person to ask that question. I asked what career you wanted, and you deflected that question back to me. That's a bit of a tough position to be in as the advice-giver.

The legal profession is not a monolith. By uniformly rejecting private law firm work, you've effectively eliminated the majority of work for the graduates of schools you supposedly want to attend. Even Yale, in all of its intellectual glory, sends 1/3 of its class to law firms (with another 1/3ish who goes to Biglaw/elite lit boutiques/etc. after clerkship(s)).

What is sending you to law school beyond liking logic and the law? If you could imagine your perfect career, what would that look like?

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imperspective
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby imperspective » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm

UVA2B wrote:
imperspective wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
imperspective wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
imperspective wrote:Thank you.

If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?


I mean, you don't have the numbers to be HYS-or-bust, but why are you HYS-or-bust in the first place?


Because I feel like I can make it into HYS somehow, either this time or in the future. And I don't want debt unless I'm going to have an extremely exciting career, and I don't think for me that I'll get that outside of HYS.


You're drastically setting yourself up for disappointment. What careers exist only for HYS grads? Can you point to a single realistic career that exists only for HYS grads?


It appears I've been making an unwarranted assumption. I do like logic and the law and am passionate about reasoning, but I don't see myself being happy working in a law firm. What would you do if you were me?


I'm an almost clinical pragmatist, so I might not be the best person to ask that question. I asked what career you wanted, and you deflected that question back to me. That's a bit of a tough position to be in as the advice-giver.

The legal profession is not a monolith. By uniformly rejecting private law firm work, you've effectively eliminated the majority of work for the graduates of schools you supposedly want to attend. Even Yale, in all of its intellectual glory, sends 1/3 of its class to law firms (with another 1/3ish who goes to Biglaw/elite lit boutiques/etc. after clerkship(s)).

What is sending you to law school beyond liking logic and the law? If you could imagine your perfect career, what would that look like?


Thank you for answering in this thread. I want you to know how highly I value your perspective. My perfect career is one where I use my voice to do several things: 1. create more opportunities for criminals to have a fresh start through reduced harshness in the criminal justice system 2. create more constructive choices for the underprivileged 3. inspire critical thinking and self-reflection in dare I say... millions of people. Very big and vague, I know.

I like the idea of going to law school in order to learn about the law, practicing for a little while while I put myself on a path that has me doing the above.

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Rigo
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby Rigo » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:20 am

imperspective wrote:If all I want is HYS and am ok to wait, should I try my hand again this time or just sit out entirely?

No harm in trying I guess other than the app fees.

HamlinMcgill
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby HamlinMcgill » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:48 am

People definitely get into HYS with a 170 or lower, but they usually have some kind of hook (URM, veteran, impressive work experience, etc). So I think it's possible you get in but it doesn't seem super likely. I don't know for sure, but I'd have to think that going through the application process a third time wouldn't look great.

The bigger issue to me though is why you're HYS or bust. Most of the people at those schools end up at more or less the same law firms as people from other T14 schools. If you want to be a public defender or work for a criminal justice advocacy group or something like that, you don't necessarily have to go to HYS. If you want to "inspire critical thinking and self-reflection" in millions of people then ... I dunno, go to film school?

cavalier1138
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:59 am

imperspective wrote:Thank you for answering in this thread. I want you to know how highly I value your perspective. My perfect career is one where I use my voice to do several things: 1. create more opportunities for criminals to have a fresh start through reduced harshness in the criminal justice system 2. create more constructive choices for the underprivileged 3. inspire critical thinking and self-reflection in dare I say... millions of people. Very big and vague, I know.

I like the idea of going to law school in order to learn about the law, practicing for a little while while I put myself on a path that has me doing the above.


So do you want to practice law or craft policy?

If you actually want to practice law, which rarely involves "inspiring critical thinking and self-reflection" in anyone, then there are plenty of good public defender orgs that don't hire exclusively out of HYS. If you want to do more impact litigation, then you start to see differences in outcome, but CCN still give you a solid shot at those jobs. You don't have the numbers for HYS, and you don't have goals that require a degree from those schools (to the extent that any goals actually require a HYS degree).

But most importantly, it doesn't sound like you actually want a career in the law as much as you want to change stuff. That's fine, but law school is where you go to become a lawyer, not just to learn some stuff, practice for a few years, then go on to your real job.

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imperspective
Posts: 52
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby imperspective » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:10 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
imperspective wrote:Thank you for answering in this thread. I want you to know how highly I value your perspective. My perfect career is one where I use my voice to do several things: 1. create more opportunities for criminals to have a fresh start through reduced harshness in the criminal justice system 2. create more constructive choices for the underprivileged 3. inspire critical thinking and self-reflection in dare I say... millions of people. Very big and vague, I know.

I like the idea of going to law school in order to learn about the law, practicing for a little while while I put myself on a path that has me doing the above.


So do you want to practice law or craft policy?

If you actually want to practice law, which rarely involves "inspiring critical thinking and self-reflection" in anyone, then there are plenty of good public defender orgs that don't hire exclusively out of HYS. If you want to do more impact litigation, then you start to see differences in outcome, but CCN still give you a solid shot at those jobs. You don't have the numbers for HYS, and you don't have goals that require a degree from those schools (to the extent that any goals actually require a HYS degree).

But most importantly, it doesn't sound like you actually want a career in the law as much as you want to change stuff. That's fine, but law school is where you go to become a lawyer, not just to learn some stuff, practice for a few years, then go on to your real job.


Thank you for the reply. My thinking has been I have a good uGPA and a decent LSAT so I should use it. Impact litigation sounds good to me. When I was talking about my perfect career earlier, I guess I'm not clear on how I do that as my "real job" on its own.

But here's a question: is there a school I can get a majority scholarship to that will enable me to do this impact litigation while I work on my perfect career at the same time?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:17 pm

there's nothing unique about the three schools you've identified other than that they are three of the best law schools

their graduates are entering the same profession, and in largely the same fashion, as other top law schools

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Rigo
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby Rigo » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:30 pm

I just don't really see how law school furthers your ultimate goals. You're already involved in nonprofits (working with inner city populations I'm guessing?). I think you'd find more fulfillment getting even more involved in your community. Law school takes you out of that and the one-on-one positive interactions and boots on the ground support that seem to be what you find most fulfilling.

You have solid stats (albeit not necessarily for HYS) but I think you have this "oh the grass is greener on the other side of my JD" but that view seems misinformed in your situation.
The only legal thing I really infer from your goals is maybe wanting to get involved in Innocence Project type stuff, but even then you seem to just be more interested in policy.

Get involved in local projects and community politics. I think you'll find that most rewarding rather than law which will take you out of that fray.

That being said, it doesn't hurt to apply. Just keep an open mind. I was hellbent on law school for a really long time until I took a step back and really looked at other options for my future that might be better suited to me. Just make sure it's truly the path you want before you send that deposit in.
Sounds like you just want prestige anyways which makes me question your passion and intentions.

cavalier1138
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Re: Apply or not?

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:14 pm

I'm signing on to the maybe-don't-go-to-law-school-right-now approach. It seems pretty clear that you don't have the first clue what lawyers do, and while you have the numbers to get in to law school, a JD doesn't fit your goals.




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