Chance me for HY

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
georgeNY
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:19 pm

Well, I just scored a 175 on a PT two days ago, but will do. Hopefully I do! Again, your hate isn't really warranted. Sorry for being cocky (admittedly), but your attacks were unprompted.

User avatar
Platopus
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:20 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Platopus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:22 pm

georgeNY wrote:Well, I just scored a 175 on a PT two days ago, but will do. Hopefully I do! Again, your hate isn't really warranted. Sorry for being cocky (admittedly), but your attacks were unprompted.


Listen, I'm rooting for you to get a 175+ I have no ill-will, I'm just saying this entire thread is an exercise in counting your chickens before they hatch. I scored 175+ on at least 10 PT's, and did not end up with a 175+ and I'm am not special. LSAT & GPA are going to make up for like 90% of admissions decisions at H and probably Yale. Can anyone definitely say whether your softs will be the ticket? No. All were saying is to get some perspective. Everyone at these top school (pretty much) has great softs and equal or better scores.

edit: I'll say it because no one else has. But if you can manage a 173+, with your GPA you'll be in contention for some serious $$ at CCN and down, so H isn't likely going to be your best option (unless you are either extremely wealth or poor and receive aid). If you can snag Y, it might be worth going, depending on your goals.
Last edited by Platopus on Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
icechicken
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:09 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby icechicken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 pm

georgeNY wrote:175 on a PT


That's decent but you really want to ice a few solid 180s before you take the actual test if you're serious about this. 175 was my floor during my last month of prep and it really had me worried, even though I was able to get back on the horse the last two weeks. I'm sure you'll figure it out, though!

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 28684
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:25 pm

georgeNY wrote:
Platopus wrote:
georgeNY wrote:I [...] have very good softs.


You don't though...

georgeNY wrote:I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT


Meaning, you have AVERAGE chances...


Wow, you don't really know how probability works, do you? Maybe some extra time in UG would help- yeah, I have average chances when compared to the average accepted student at harvard... not compared to the applicant pool. And, my ECs are very strong, and I won the Truman Scholarship during my junior year, which probably counts for something.

You're not really competing with the whole applicant pool, though, are you? People who are going to get rejected aren't really competition. Yale isn't going to take someone with, say, a 3.0 and 163, so you're not really competing against them, but against other people with average chances.

And cockiness tends to piss other people off, so I don't know that "unprompted" is the right word here (I think the issue is that when you come asking for chances, and when people chance you, you insist that your softs/background is actually way more impressive than people are allowing for. That might be true, it just doesn't come across very well).

User avatar
UVA2B
Posts: 3088
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:30 pm

I'm a bit confused here. Why are you asking TLS to chance you on non-number, hypothetical factors that no one can quantify with any amount of certainty? No one here can predict whether you'll get into Harvard or Yale, even with an LSAT (although Harvard becomes pretty formulaic if your numbers are right that makes the other stuff sufficient).

There are applicants with way better profiles than yours, and there are applicants who can't touch your proposed number profile and pedigree. But that doesn't make the least bit of difference, because none of those applicants were you.

Put together the best application you can, pull your head out of your admittedly arrogant butt and figure out what you want in a career, because admission to Harvard or Yale is not the end goal. I sincerely hope you realize that this is merely a gateway to a career.

User avatar
wmbuff
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:26 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby wmbuff » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 am

georgeNY wrote:I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT, have very good softs, and a LoR from a professor. maybe saying "confident" went too far, but I definitely feel like I have a better shot than most. Not sure where the hostility comes from, but I guess I should've expected it in such a hyper competitive forum.


It's really hard to have softs that qualify as excellent, or even good, at the HYS level. Hypothetically, let's say you raised the top Longhorn bull at the Texas State Fair. In certain circles, that would be a very big deal, indeed. To anyone who knows cattle, you're getting a second look the instant they hear that. But say you're at a party, and other folks there include an Olympic medalist, an astronaut, a Congressional Medal of Honor winner, and someone who sold their startup to a Fortune 500 company for millions of dollars five years out of college. In that scenario, who do you think people at the party want to talk to? I'm friends with a Longhorn cattleman, but I'm still trying to talk to the astronaut. What you've done may be a very big deal, indeed, but folks like that have instantly recognizable accomplishments to the general public. Those are the folks you're comparing softs with (even if there are no actual astronauts in the applicant pool).

User avatar
zkyggi
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:14 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby zkyggi » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:25 am

georgeNY wrote:Well, I just scored a 175 on a PT two days ago, but will do. Hopefully I do! Again, your hate isn't really warranted. Sorry for being cocky (admittedly), but your attacks were unprompted.


Scored a 180 two days before test day and ended up with a 16x. I recommend that you take into account the fact that test day is simply something that is hard to replicate in practice. Work on your app as if you are below the 25th percentile for LSAT and hope for the best on test day. Folks on here warned me about getting excited about PTs and I thought they were dicks until my score came back.

Wakhancorridor
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:35 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Wakhancorridor » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:33 am

If you don't get the score you want, you can always just send copies of your practice tests, maybe in an addendum or something

User avatar
#gobroncos
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby #gobroncos » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:55 am

Wakhancorridor wrote:If you don't get the score you want, you can always just send copies of your practice tests, maybe in an addendum or something


Savage.

User avatar
Slippin' Jimmy
Posts: 749
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:56 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:31 am

georgeNY wrote:Well, I just scored a 175 on a PT two days ago, but will do. Hopefully I do! Again, your hate isn't really warranted. Sorry for being cocky (admittedly), but your attacks were unprompted.

Wait you aren’t scoring 180s yet?

Samarcan
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:14 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Samarcan » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:32 am

To the original poster: most of the comments on this thread about "softs" are correct in that you should be wary of your confidence in your own. But (if you're new here) you should also be aware that some of the posters (especially the frankly idiotic posts early in the thread about having a 0% chance at YLS) are projecting their own insecurities.

Of course they'd deny this, saying instead they are "hard-headed realists" or just looking at the numbers, but you can pretty easily tell who is neutrally giving you a splash of cold water and who is revealing his/her own either bitter or resentful inferiority complex, especially when they see a young confident person come around their "stomping grounds." Not everyone on this thread is like this, again, but some of the earlier posts do exhibit this, so (as again should be obvious) don't put much stock into anything you find here if it's couched in that kind of myopic confidence (which is an ironic reflection of your own confidence that you should temper, even if you do get into H or Y. Having good friends is something important, too.).

rachelac
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:45 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby rachelac » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:35 am

Just to reiterate, I'd be very careful of assuming your LSAT score; there's a reason the band is +/-3. I was routinely scoring 175s-179s on my PTs in the preceding weeks (never a 180, to be fair) and ended up with a 173- still really solid and my cycle is going well, but far from a lock at HYS. I'm not a nervous tester AT ALL and still just hit a few questions that ended up lowering my score from where I was hoping it'd be.

Generally agree with most comments in here. You're very competitive, but I'd tone down the certainty, especially until you have an LSAT score.

Good luck!

cavalier1138
Posts: 4628
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:37 am

Samarcan wrote:To the original poster: most of the comments on this thread about "softs" are correct in that you should be wary of your confidence in your own. But (if you're new here) you should also be aware that some of the posters (especially the frankly idiotic posts early in the thread about having a 0% chance at YLS) are projecting their own insecurities.

Of course they'd deny this, saying instead they are "hard-headed realists" or just looking at the numbers, but you can pretty easily tell who is neutrally giving you a splash of cold water and who is revealing his/her own either bitter or resentful inferiority complex, especially when they see a young confident person come around their "stomping grounds." Not everyone on this thread is like this, again, but some of the earlier posts do exhibit this, so (as again should be obvious) don't put much stock into anything you find here if it's couched in that kind of myopic confidence (which is an ironic reflection of your own confidence that you should temper, even if you do get into H or Y. Having good friends is something important, too.).


QFP (but in this case the "P" doubles for "posterity" and "pretension")

As was mentioned early in the thread (I know, I know, reading), there are always outliers. If outlier results could be predicted, they wouldn't be outliers; they'd be average results. Maybe the OP is justified in being a cocky child, or maybe, just maybe, the top schools in the nation generally require top LSAT scores.

But you're probably right. This is all about bitterness over a "young confident person," especially the posters who go/went to top schools and the posters who are actual lawyers. Those guys are all super-bitter.

ETA: Of course you went to Harvard. What a fucking shock.

packer_22
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:28 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby packer_22 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:46 am

OK, I'll bite.

I think, once you're above YLS's bottom 25th cutoff for LSAT, it will depend on who your professor is and what they say. If Akil Amar (or someone like that) recommends you strongly, then you're getting in. But if its a clinical faculty or something like that then probably not.

I also think it depends on what the organziation is. If its the Harvard Lampoon (which takes a ton of time, probably not). If its the Harvard Student Government, then that helps.

Also- what "prestige" looks like outside of your ugrad drops off significantly. The things that look most presitigous and resume worthy inside your undergrad, most people have never heard of.

User avatar
Chaimthegreat
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:50 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Chaimthegreat » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:06 am

You should probably take the LSAT before posting a chance me. All of this could be avoided. Go take the test and come back.

If you do take the LSAT and get a 175 here are the four pieces of advice you will likely get:

Solid chance at H (some may say very solid).
As good as any at Y but it's a black box- don't count on it.
Money at CCN so you should look there as well.
All of these are options because of the 175 and gpa, the softs only help on the margins.

Oh, and someone will probably tell you to retake :roll:

There you go. Can we consider this thread finalized?

User avatar
Walliums
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Walliums » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:03 pm

Wakhancorridor wrote:If you don't get the score you want, you can always just send copies of your practice tests, maybe in an addendum or something


Triggered

User avatar
KissMyAxe
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:01 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby KissMyAxe » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 pm

Samarcan wrote:To the original poster: most of the comments on this thread about "softs" are correct in that you should be wary of your confidence in your own. But (if you're new here) you should also be aware that some of the posters (especially the frankly idiotic posts early in the thread about having a 0% chance at YLS) are projecting their own insecurities.

Of course they'd deny this, saying instead they are "hard-headed realists" or just looking at the numbers, but you can pretty easily tell who is neutrally giving you a splash of cold water and who is revealing his/her own either bitter or resentful inferiority complex, especially when they see a young confident person come around their "stomping grounds." Not everyone on this thread is like this, again, but some of the earlier posts do exhibit this, so (as again should be obvious) don't put much stock into anything you find here if it's couched in that kind of myopic confidence (which is an ironic reflection of your own confidence that you should temper, even if you do get into H or Y. Having good friends is something important, too.).


This is one of the most arrogant, pretentious things I've seen on this site, and that's saying a lot. I haven't seen anyone in here I'd call bitter or with an inferiority complex. If OP has a GPA below median, and a 168 LSAT, their chances at YLS are close to 0. Now, maybe their buddy is Guido or Gerken, and they surprise us (I think people are overestimating Amar's influence with the other professors). But that comment is fair. Someone with a below median GPA and a below 25% LSAT is almost certainly not getting in without being a URM or having a super soft. And OP, while I'm sure your presidency is the most prestigious thing ever, that everyone on this site would slit one another's throat to become, it's not what I mean when I say super soft. That's how admissions at YLS works. Congratulations on your transfer to and graduation from HLS, but that's definitely not something worth lording over everyone else. But who knows, I could just be intimidated by such a young, confident person and am really insecure of my own failures.

OP, do I think you being an HY student will help at that law school? I suspect it does play into their minds. YLS consists of a huge amount of Yale College students. Maybe even 25-30%. HYP students are probably nearing 50%. I know you guys have artificially inflated GPAs, but I do suspect there's more to it that that. So I'd suspect you'd get a boost, but I don't think you'd get that much of a boost.

Also, don't know how the term club is condescending, but yes, Princeton's daily newspaper is a club, and its editor in chief is the president of that club.
"Club: an association or organization dedicated to a particular interest or activity." That fits the definition. I know these clubs can seem important when you're there. But no one outside of that school cares at all. If a friend were to walk up to me and tell me that they were the editor in chief of that newspaper, I'd say, "Huh, is that right?" and then forget about it forever. Something on that level is an average (maybe slightly below) soft for YLS. I'm sure it was rewarding on its own, and that should have been worth the time commitment, but it's not going to move the scales at all.

georgeNY
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:01 pm

^yeah, you sound bitter. a 3.86 is not below the median for harvard- it is the median. And, if you were the EiC of the daily princtonian, you would have a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students I've met, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, I don't have a 168. Why do you like to lie? I've explicitly said that I haven't taken that test yet, but I'm scoring almost 10 points higher on practice. Realistically, my floor is a 170ish, and that's an absolute floor.

I appreciate all the positive replies on this thread. As I said before, many have reaffirmed my confidence in HLS, given my LSAT score falls where it should. Re: Yale being a blackbox- totally cool, didn't know that. But, I appreciate the info.

cavalier1138
Posts: 4628
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:04 pm

georgeNY wrote:^yeah, you sound bitter. a 3.86 is not below the median for harvard- it is the median. And, if you were the EiC of the daily princtonian, you would have a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students I've met, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, I don't have a 168. Why do you like to lie? I've explicitly said that I haven't taken that test yet, but I'm scoring almost 10 points higher on practice. Realistically, my floor is a 170ish, and that's an absolute floor.

I appreciate all the positive replies on this thread. As I said before, many have reaffirmed my confidence in HLS, given my LSAT score falls where it should. Re: Yale being a blackbox- totally cool, didn't know that. But, I appreciate the info.


Yep, I bet he's really bitter about going to Yale...

This is the thread that keeps on giving.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 28684
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:09 pm

georgeNY wrote:^yeah, you sound bitter. a 3.86 is not below the median for harvard- it is the median. And, if you were the EiC of the daily princtonian, you would have a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students I've met, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. All lso, I don't have a 168. Why do you like to lie? I've explicitly said that I haven't taken that test yet, but I'm scoring almost 10 points higher on practice. Realistically, my floor is a 170ish, and that's an absolute floor.

Oh dear lord. No, KissMyAxe doesn't sound bitter, and no, EIC of the Daily Princetonian isn't a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students have. Also you floated a 168 for the purposes of discussion. Come on.

User avatar
KENYADIGG1T
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:23 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby KENYADIGG1T » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:23 pm

georgeNY wrote:
Platopus wrote:
georgeNY wrote:I [...] have very good softs.


You don't though...

georgeNY wrote:I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT


Meaning, you have AVERAGE chances...


Wow, you don't really know how probability works, do you? Maybe some extra time in UG would help- yeah, I have average chances when compared to the average accepted student at harvard... not compared to the applicant pool. And, my ECs are very strong, and I won the Truman Scholarship during my junior year, which probably counts for something.


You're gonna be a *fun* law school classmate; I can feel it.

User avatar
Mullens
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:34 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Mullens » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:42 pm

georgeNY wrote:^yeah, you sound bitter. a 3.86 is not below the median for harvard- it is the median. And, if you were the EiC of the daily princtonian, you would have a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students I've met, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, I don't have a 168. Why do you like to lie? I've explicitly said that I haven't taken that test yet, but I'm scoring almost 10 points higher on practice. Realistically, my floor is a 170ish, and that's an absolute floor.

I appreciate all the positive replies on this thread. As I said before, many have reaffirmed my confidence in HLS, given my LSAT score falls where it should. Re: Yale being a blackbox- totally cool, didn't know that. But, I appreciate the info.


Your arrogance is hilarious and sad at the same time. At some point the real world is gonna hit you down a notch and I hope it doesn't destroy you. Being president of your club might seem important now, but in a year it'll just be reduced to nothing more than a line on your resume. One that people either won't want to talk about in job interviews because they don't give a shit or one that causes their eyes to glaze over and reject you when you talk about how important it is.

Your lack of perspective is telling. At the moment you might think you have great softs for someone at HYP and to another student in your shoes that might be true. It's not true to almost everyone else. I went to a lower T13 school that had olympians, former professional football players, retired executives from F50 companies and PE funds in our school. Those kinda of softs matter because they are interesting to regular people. No one gives a shit about the EIC of a college newspaper or the President of Model UN or some other make-work bullshit.

Feel free to call me bitter but I'd wager you'd be willing to cut a few toes off to be where I am right now in a few years. I hope to have the pleasure of rejecting you from your dream job.

User avatar
KENYADIGG1T
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:23 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby KENYADIGG1T » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm

Mullens wrote:
georgeNY wrote:^yeah, you sound bitter. a 3.86 is not below the median for harvard- it is the median. And, if you were the EiC of the daily princtonian, you would have a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students I've met, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, I don't have a 168. Why do you like to lie? I've explicitly said that I haven't taken that test yet, but I'm scoring almost 10 points higher on practice. Realistically, my floor is a 170ish, and that's an absolute floor.

I appreciate all the positive replies on this thread. As I said before, many have reaffirmed my confidence in HLS, given my LSAT score falls where it should. Re: Yale being a blackbox- totally cool, didn't know that. But, I appreciate the info.


Your arrogance is hilarious and sad at the same time. At some point the real world is gonna hit you down a notch and I hope it doesn't destroy you. Being president of your club might seem important now, but in a year it'll just be reduced to nothing more than a line on your resume. One that people either won't want to talk about in job interviews because they don't give a shit or one that causes their eyes to glaze over and reject you when you talk about how important it is.

Your lack of perspective is telling. At the moment you might think you have great softs for someone at HYP and to another student in your shoes that might be true. It's not true to almost everyone else. I went to a lower T13 school that had olympians, former professional football players, retired executives from F50 companies and PE funds in our school. Those kinda of softs matter because they are interesting to regular people. No one gives a shit about the EIC of a college newspaper or the President of Model UN or some other make-work bullshit.

Feel free to call me bitter but I'd wager you'd be willing to cut a few toes off to be where I am right now in a few years. I hope to have the pleasure of rejecting you from your dream job.


Bless you, truly.

User avatar
WinterComing
Posts: 719
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:10 am

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby WinterComing » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:03 pm

OP, as others have noted, you are vastly overrating the value of your extracurricular activity as a soft factor helping your application. There is basically no activity that you can do in undergrad that will seem prestigious in comparison to the real-world experience of people who have spent a couple of years before law school in fancy positions accomplishing fancy things.

But others in this thread might be underrating the value of your extracurricular activity, depending on what it is. I mean, there are some things you can do in undergrad that seem fancy even here at YLS. If you have won a national debate championship, or if you were a Whiffenpoof, or something on a similar level, then that will probably help you. Your school newspaper example probably isn't in the same category; lots of folks here have had actual journalism careers.

My point is that your softs are not dramatically better than the average student here, but they probably aren't dramatically worse either. As such, you might want to do really well on the LSAT. From my anecdotal experience, the people here with lower scores are usually the ones with much, much better softs than yours.

georgeNY
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:15 pm

KENYADIGG1T wrote:
Mullens wrote:
georgeNY wrote:^yeah, you sound bitter. a 3.86 is not below the median for harvard- it is the median. And, if you were the EiC of the daily princtonian, you would have a far better soft than most YLS or HLS students I've met, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, I don't have a 168. Why do you like to lie? I've explicitly said that I haven't taken that test yet, but I'm scoring almost 10 points higher on practice. Realistically, my floor is a 170ish, and that's an absolute floor.

I appreciate all the positive replies on this thread. As I said before, many have reaffirmed my confidence in HLS, given my LSAT score falls where it should. Re: Yale being a blackbox- totally cool, didn't know that. But, I appreciate the info.


Your arrogance is hilarious and sad at the same time. At some point the real world is gonna hit you down a notch and I hope it doesn't destroy you. Being president of your club might seem important now, but in a year it'll just be reduced to nothing more than a line on your resume. One that people either won't want to talk about in job interviews because they don't give a shit or one that causes their eyes to glaze over and reject you when you talk about how important it is.

Your lack of perspective is telling. At the moment you might think you have great softs for someone at HYP and to another student in your shoes that might be true. It's not true to almost everyone else. I went to a lower T13 school that had olympians, former professional football players, retired executives from F50 companies and PE funds in our school. Those kinda of softs matter because they are interesting to regular people. No one gives a shit about the EIC of a college newspaper or the President of Model UN or some other make-work bullshit.

Feel free to call me bitter but I'd wager you'd be willing to cut a few toes off to be where I am right now in a few years. I hope to have the pleasure of rejecting you from your dream job.


Bless you, truly.


I sincerely hope that after law school when I'm in the process of applying for your incredibly prestigious position, I'm not also responding to a forum fight at top law schools . Com at 3PM in the afternoon! I came in a bit cocky, and now I have people telling me that they hope I fail. You really must have a chip on your shoulder.

When all's said and done this year, I'll have roughly a 3.9 GPA from a top 5 global university and an excellent LSAT score. I have many opportunities ahead of me, but it's concerning to hear some mid 30 something actively root for my failure because he didn't like my tone.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: icechicken and 19 guests