Chance me for HY

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
georgeNY
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Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:41 pm

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Last edited by georgeNY on Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:45 pm

georgeNY wrote:If I nail it and get, say, a 173 (which is totally possible as I've already scored higher on practice tests and still have 2 months until the real exam), I am very confident that I will get into both harvard and yale.


I know you've got a prof writing for you, but no one can be confident of admission to Yale.

However, you have correctly identified that your LSAT score matters. So the only answer to your question is that your chances are 0% with a 168 and >0% with a 173.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:46 pm

^I appreciate the feedback, but that's simply untrue that I would have 0% with a 168. A close friend of mine got into both harvard and yale last year with a 167. Not a URM, just a HYP student with a similar GPA...

SolemnMan
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby SolemnMan » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:49 pm

georgeNY wrote:^I appreciate the feedback, but that's simply untrue that I would have 0% with a 168. A close friend of mine got into both harvard and yale last year with a 167. Not a URM, just a HYP student with a similar GPA...

Ok, then let me clarify for him. Your friend had a chance. You, however, don't with a 168.

cavalier1138
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:50 pm

georgeNY wrote:^I appreciate the feedback, but that's simply untrue that I would have 0% with a 168. A close friend of mine got into both harvard and yale last year with a 167. Not a URM, just a HYP student with a similar GPA...


Your friend is an extreme outlier. The numbers I gave were obviously meant to be exaggerated. There's no such thing as a true "0%" chance of admission anywhere, but since outliers can't be predicted, it's kind of pointless to ask others to speculate about it.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:52 pm

Does going to one of Harvard or Yale help? Especially with regard to its specific law school?

cavalier1138
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:56 pm

georgeNY wrote:Does going to one of Harvard or Yale help? Especially with regard to its specific law school?


This is a fairly debated point, and the answer is that no one is sure. I tend to think that any "preferential treatment" is correlation between elite schools and high grades/LSAT scores rather than causation. But if there is any kind of internal favoritism, it's not dependable enough for you to stake your admissions chances on it.

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guynourmin
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby guynourmin » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:11 pm

georgeNY wrote: But, what if I get something like a 168?


retake. if you want to go to HY and have the GPA/LOR/softs (lol)/etc to get in and it is just your LSAT holding you back, retake. there's absolutely no reason to rush into law school.

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hdivschool
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby hdivschool » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:20 pm

Admissions isn't merely a matter of being the best and the brightest, it's also about the admissions committee assembling a diverse class. If you end up with numbers below the 25th percentile (like a 3.86 GPA and 168 LSAT would both be), I doubt that professor's recommendation or your club presidency will score you a slot at YLS.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:22 pm

hdivschool wrote:Admissions isn't merely a matter of being the best and the brightest, it's also about the admissions committee assembling a diverse class. If you end up with numbers below the 25th percentile (like a 3.86 GPA and 168 LSAT would both be), I doubt that professor's recommendation or your club presidency will score you a slot at YLS.


Wait, I understand your point about the LSAT, but how exactly is a 3.86 below their 25th percentile? H's 50th percentile is a 3.86 exactly, and Yale's 25th is below...

Also, using the term club is a bit condescending. Would you use the same term to describe the Editor in Chief of, say, princeton's daily newspaper? because that's what level this is on.

cavalier1138
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:32 pm

georgeNY wrote:
hdivschool wrote:Admissions isn't merely a matter of being the best and the brightest, it's also about the admissions committee assembling a diverse class. If you end up with numbers below the 25th percentile (like a 3.86 GPA and 168 LSAT would both be), I doubt that professor's recommendation or your club presidency will score you a slot at YLS.


Wait, I understand your point about the LSAT, but how exactly is a 3.86 below their 25th percentile? H's 50th percentile is a 3.86 exactly, and Yale's 25th is below...


They were likely referring to pre-2016 numbers. For some reason, it looks like Yale's 25th percentile GPA dropped by more than 0.05 in the 2015/2016 cycle, which is pretty significant for them. This year, their site shows that the 25th has climbed back up to 3.83, with a median of 3.91.

But this is all moot. The point is that without diversity factors or a truly amazing resume, your numbers need to be at or above the median to give you a reasonable shot at admission. It's like any other hiring/admissions process: bonuses like a good recommendation are only valuable for getting your foot in the door or boosting you above other applicants once you're in the pool of people who are actually being considered for the position.

ETA: But on the plus side, H students are known for being extremely standoffish and full of themselves, so if you keep posting shit like "Would you call the Princeton school paper a club, sir? I challenge you to fisticuffs!" it definitely makes you a more likely candidate for admission there if you have a good enough LSAT.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:37 pm

ETA: But on the plus side, H students are known for being extremely standoffish and full of themselves, so if you keep posting shit like "Would you call the Princeton school paper a club, sir? I challenge you to fisticuffs!" it definitely makes you a more likely candidate for admission there if you have a good enough LSAT.[/quote]

I mean, there's a substantial difference between spending 3 hours per week on a mock trial club and dedicating 40+ hrs/wk to a huge organization for several years, especially if that organization's presidency is coveted by many people in each class. so, i mean, yeah.

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Platopus
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Platopus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:42 pm

You'll likely be applying late in the year if you plan on taking the December test. Even with a 173, applying late is going to put you at a disadvantage at Harvard. Applying "late" won't affect chances at Yale, but it's going to take much more than a recommendation of a professor to get you in. Yale's admission process involves having professors review and rate candidates. Let's just suppose that you get reviewed by a professor that personally (or otherwise), doesn't like your recommender.

A 168 is less than 10% chance at both H & Y
A 170 puts you on the waitlist at H and out at Yale
A 173 is 50/50 shot at H and probably 50/50 at Yale
A 175+ improve the odds a bit, but you'll still be at a disadvantage at H for applying late, and Y is still going to be a black box.

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Platopus
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Platopus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:47 pm

georgeNY wrote:
I mean, there's a substantial difference between spending 3 hours per week on a mock trial club and dedicating 40+ hrs/wk to a huge organization for several years, especially if that organization's presidency is coveted by many people in each class. so, i mean, yeah.


You seem to lack some perspective. Last year the president's daughter was applying to Harvard. Your extracurricular work is commendable, but softs really only matter at the margins. Check out the fun facts section: https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profile ... ss-profile

Tons of people have impressive softs. No one is directly challenging the value of your experience, just commenting that at the best law schools in the world, they aren't anything spectacular.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:50 pm

I'm sure your student organization work is amazing in that context, but I think the general point is that college organizations are very rarely going to move the needle significantly. Especially at Yale, you're competing with people who have graduated and accomplished a great deal in the real world. So it's probably a perfectly good soft, but it's not going to make a significant difference.

All that in mind, it doesn't really matter what label gets attached to it.

And Yale is pretty much a black box - they're very hard to predict. It *is* possible that people with amazing softs/experiences can overcome slightly less desirable grades/LSAT, but none of us are going to be able to say whether you are one of those people. Keep in mind that Yale having profs involved in reading applications makes it a very different process than basically any other school, too. No one here is going to be able to tell you that what you have is enough to get in, which is what you seem to want to hear?

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unicorntamer666
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby unicorntamer666 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:52 pm

"president of VERY prestigious and large organization at my HYP school..."

"very close with an established Harvard/Yale Law professor who, without being prompted, offer to write on my behalf."

"...I am very confident that I will get into both harvard and yale."

"dedicating 40+ hrs/wk to a huge organization for several years, especially if that organization's presidency is coveted by many people in each class. so, i mean, yeah."

lol. good stuff.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:05 pm

OK, thanks for replies, everyone. From this, I'm basically getting that I need to be around a 173 to have a good shot at H, which is very doable. I'm hoping for higher, but I'd still take a 173 at this point.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:05 pm

OK, thanks for replies, everyone. From this, I'm basically getting that I need to be around a 173 to have a good shot at H, which is very doable. I'm hoping for higher, but I'd still take a 173 at this point.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:06 pm

unicorntamer666 wrote:"president of VERY prestigious and large organization at my HYP school..."

"very close with an established Harvard/Yale Law professor who, without being prompted, offer to write on my behalf."

"...I am very confident that I will get into both harvard and yale."



lol. good stuff.


Also, not sure what your problem is. Those are all factors that will contribute to their ultimate decision in some way.
Last edited by georgeNY on Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:08 pm

georgeNY wrote:
unicorntamer666 wrote:"president of VERY prestigious and large organization at my HYP school..."

"very close with an established Harvard/Yale Law professor who, without being prompted, offer to write on my behalf."

"...I am very confident that I will get into both harvard and yale."

"dedicating 40+ hrs/wk to a huge organization for several years, especially if that organization's presidency is coveted by many people in each class. so, i mean, yeah."

lol. good stuff.


Also, not sure what your problem is. Those are all factors that will contribute to their ultimate decision in some way.


The issue isn't what you're saying but how you're saying it. Again, it sounds like you'll fit in very well at Harvard, but try to at least have a modicum of self-awareness.

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icechicken
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby icechicken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:09 pm

georgeNY wrote:OK, thanks for replies, everyone. From this, I'm basically getting that I need to be around a 173 to have a good shot at H, which is very doable. I'm hoping for higher, but I'd still take a 173 at this point.


Best of luck, dude. If you're as bright as you think you are it should be pretty much automatic.

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:12 pm

I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT, have very good softs, and a LoR from a professor. maybe saying "confident" went too far, but I definitely feel like I have a better shot than most. Not sure where the hostility comes from, but I guess I should've expected it in such a hyper competitive forum.

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Platopus
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Platopus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:13 pm

georgeNY wrote:I [...] have very good softs.


You don't though...

georgeNY wrote:I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT


Meaning, you have AVERAGE chances...

georgeNY
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby georgeNY » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:16 pm

Platopus wrote:
georgeNY wrote:I [...] have very good softs.


You don't though...

georgeNY wrote:I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT


Meaning, you have AVERAGE chances...


Wow, you don't really know how probability works, do you? Maybe some extra time in UG would help- yeah, I have average chances when compared to the average accepted student at harvard... not compared to the applicant pool. And, my ECs are very strong, and I won the Truman Scholarship during my junior year, which probably counts for something.

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Platopus
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Re: Chance me for HY

Postby Platopus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:17 pm

georgeNY wrote:
Platopus wrote:
georgeNY wrote:I [...] have very good softs.


You don't though...

georgeNY wrote:I have an average GPA for harvard, will hopefully have an average LSAT


Meaning, you have AVERAGE chances...


Wow, you don't really know how probability works, do you? Maybe some extra time in UG would help- yeah, I have average chances when compared to the average accepted student at harvard... not compared to the applicant pool. And, my ECs are very strong, and I won the Truman Scholarship during my junior year, which probably counts for something.


Let me know when you actually get that 173




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