What do you think about these safety options?

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InterLaw
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What do you think about these safety options?

Postby InterLaw » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:15 am

Hi everyone, I need some critique here... I am international with a 172, I applied broadly to the t20 but since I got a couple of bad red flags in my file (academic related) and I'm debt adverse (no access to public loans) I want to consider some "safety" options. Goals: work for Int Organizations (UN mainly), NGOs, public administrations (staffs) or other forms of PI involving International Law. For this reason, I would eve consider a double degree (yes, I know how how much this forum is dd adverse so don't bother). Markets: DC / NYC / (abroad)
Here are the safety options I have in mind. which I'd consider if they come with almost full to full tuition scholarships:

GWU (not sure this is safe though)
UW (I think Seattle could be a good starting point)
W&M (well I like the school vibe and it seems they have pretty good numbers for PI right? To what extent the ranking drop should affect my decision?)
(BC/BU?)

What do you think? Garbage? Good options?

Also, I didn't apply to Vandy and WUSTL: I'd really like to avoid Tennessee and Missouri, too far from where I want to land. Is this a bad idea?

cavalier1138
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:56 am

I mean, those are fine options if you're only considering the full ride aspect of the equation. But you're talking about extremely high-level IGO/NGO work, and those groups don't really hire from the schools you listed.

Also, I'm not sure why you're even considering Seattle. Is there a specific group out there that you think is doing this work?

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abujabal
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby abujabal » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:04 pm

InterLaw wrote:UW (I think Seattle could be a good starting point)


I'm not certain that UW gives out full tuition scholarships, so you may want to look into that. I do know that in-state residents get favorable tuition and possibly a 9k tuition grant in 2L and 3L (I've read about it, but haven't seen a current student confirm), but that's about it. Also worth noting that you have to work in-state to establish residency - 1L doesn't count. I love the school and all, but it's worth noting that the UW doesn't necessarily take the "high tuition, high scholarships" approach to $$.

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Slippin' Jimmy
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:45 pm

InterLaw wrote:Hi everyone, I need some critique here... I am international with a 172, I applied broadly to the t20 but since I got a couple of bad red flags in my file (academic related) and I'm debt adverse (no access to public loans) I want to consider some "safety" options. Goals: work for Int Organizations (UN mainly), NGOs, public administrations (staffs) or other forms of PI involving International Law. For this reason, I would eve consider a double degree (yes, I know how how much this forum is dd adverse so don't bother). Markets: DC / NYC / (abroad)
Here are the safety options I have in mind. which I'd consider if they come with almost full to full tuition scholarships:

GWU (not sure this is safe though)
UW (I think Seattle could be a good starting point)
W&M (well I like the school vibe and it seems they have pretty good numbers for PI right? To what extent the ranking drop should affect my decision?)
(BC/BU?)

What do you think? Garbage? Good options?

Also, I didn't apply to Vandy and WUSTL: I'd really like to avoid Tennessee and Missouri, too far from where I want to land. Is this a bad idea?


I'd apply to Vandy and WUSTL, they place pretty decently in New York and Chicago respectively. I applied to both even though I couldn't see myself practicing in either state, and WUSTL especially is a good choice if you have a high LSAT and are debt averse.

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Jack_Kelly
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby Jack_Kelly » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:03 pm

For sure do Vanderbilt and WUSTL. Almost no one from the former actually stays in TN, and over half of the latter leaves MO. WUSTL also really doesn't reject anyone with a high enough LSAT.

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InterLaw
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby InterLaw » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:17 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:I mean, those are fine options if you're only considering the full ride aspect of the equation. But you're talking about extremely high-level IGO/NGO work, and those groups don't really hire from the schools you listed.

Also, I'm not sure why you're even considering Seattle. Is there a specific group out there that you think is doing this work?


Totally right on the first observation, and there's no way around it right?
Seattle: well it was actually just about the fact that it's a pretty liberal and politically involved city + gates foundation (even though I don't really know if they have legal jobs involved in it) + links between UW and Gates senior. I could be dead wrong though! (also, I liked the city when I was there for a couple of days)

abujabal wrote:I'm not certain that UW gives out full tuition scholarships, so you may want to look into that.


Right! On ABA report there is just 1 full tuition...
The 31 "more than full tuition" listed in the ABA report are all from the Gates scholarship? I mean where do they come from?

Slippin' Jimmy wrote:I'd apply to Vandy and WUSTL, they place pretty decently in New York and Chicago respectively. I applied to both even though I couldn't see myself practicing in either state, and WUSTL especially is a good choice if you have a high LSAT and are debt averse.


Ok but... I am not sure I could live for three years in those places (never been there actually, this is just the European/romantic/classicist me speaking)

Jack_Kelly wrote:For sure do Vanderbilt and WUSTL. Almost no one from the former actually stays in TN, and over half of the latter leaves MO. WUSTL also really doesn't reject anyone with a high enough LSAT.


Yeah but they seem to have their ranking position pretty much linked to Big Law right? I'm gonna check this...

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abujabal
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby abujabal » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:43 pm

InterLaw wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I mean, those are fine options if you're only considering the full ride aspect of the equation. But you're talking about extremely high-level IGO/NGO work, and those groups don't really hire from the schools you listed.

Also, I'm not sure why you're even considering Seattle. Is there a specific group out there that you think is doing this work?


Totally right on the first observation, and there's no way around it right?
Seattle: well it was actually just about the fact that it's a pretty liberal and politically involved city + gates foundation (even though I don't really know if they have legal jobs involved in it) + links between UW and Gates senior. I could be dead wrong though! (also, I liked the city when I was there for a couple of days)

abujabal wrote:I'm not certain that UW gives out full tuition scholarships, so you may want to look into that.


Right! On ABA report there is just 1 full tuition...
The 31 "more than full tuition" listed in the ABA report are all from the Gates scholarship? I mean where do they come from?


That's worth thinking about...

At least 15 of those are Gates Scholars, given they take 5 each year. I know that there are at max 9 Gregoires per year, and I don't know what the stipend/scholarship is for them, but that could be what makes up the remaining 16. Worth noting that you'd need at least 90k to be a fullride for an in-state student, and everything on LSN seems to max out at 54k, so I don't know that outside of the named scholarships, there's much opportunity for a full-ride.

I also don't know that there's a ton of legal jobs at the Gates Foundation - they do a lot of direct and program-based aid, so there's not a HUGE need for lawyers, but I'm sure there are JDs somewhere in the building. If you're looking for international work here, there are firms that do it, but I suspect it's mainly transactional stuff for our local giants (Amazon, Boeing, Microsoft, etc.)

Seattle's a dope place to be though, so come hang

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wmbuff
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby wmbuff » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:36 pm

InterLaw wrote:
Jack_Kelly wrote:For sure do Vanderbilt and WUSTL. Almost no one from the former actually stays in TN, and over half of the latter leaves MO. WUSTL also really doesn't reject anyone with a high enough LSAT.


Yeah but they seem to have their ranking position pretty much linked to Big Law right? I'm gonna check this...


Vandy has some pretty solid evidence of PI support on their website, solid clerkship numbers, and a handful of recent Skaddens. That's not a pure biglaw orientation, but they may not be right for your goals. If you can land a fee waiver, I'd apply, and consider a visit. Nashville is a fun city, and their campus (at least the parts of it I've seen in previous trips to the city) is gorgeous. I plan to actually visit the law school in particular later this year.

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InterLaw
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby InterLaw » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:31 am

abujabal wrote:At least 15 of those are Gates Scholars, given they take 5 each year. I know that there are at max 9 Gregoires per year, and I don't know what the stipend/scholarship is for them, but that could be what makes up the remaining 16. Worth noting that you'd need at least 90k to be a fullride for an in-state student, and everything on LSN seems to max out at 54k, so I don't know that outside of the named scholarships, there's much opportunity for a full-ride.

I also don't know that there's a ton of legal jobs at the Gates Foundation - they do a lot of direct and program-based aid, so there's not a HUGE need for lawyers, but I'm sure there are JDs somewhere in the building. If you're looking for international work here, there are firms that do it, but I suspect it's mainly transactional stuff for our local giants (Amazon, Boeing, Microsoft, etc.)

Seattle's a dope place to be though, so come hang


Well since I got a fee waiver I could consider an application to see what happens... The Gates Scholarship it's a bit too much right now, but I have a couple of good diversity factors and I could have a shot at the Gregoire's... I mean it's worth the $35 probably!
Also, I am a huge tech fan, and I wouldn't be disgusted at all in working with Amazon and Microsoft. That is not the career path that I have in mind, but starting in Big Law could actually become necessary (visa sponsorship).

wmbuff wrote:Vandy has some pretty solid evidence of PI support on their website, solid clerkship numbers, and a handful of recent Skaddens. That's not a pure biglaw orientation, but they may not be right for your goals. If you can land a fee waiver, I'd apply, and consider a visit. Nashville is a fun city, and their campus (at least the parts of it I've seen in previous trips to the city) is gorgeous. I plan to actually visit the law school in particular later this year.


I already have a fee waiver form Vandy. I spent the last 40 minutes on their website and they actually have an impressive list of recent externships in the field of International Law, with a lot of agencies that are basically what I'm aiming for!
Still, there's a scholly problem. They do not grant full rides, and the merit awards (full rides + 5k$) may be out of reach for me (even for them, 172 is high but not that high). They have a International Law Scholarship for which I can have a shot, even though it's just one per year, and it covers just 20k $... I'd still need some dean grant!
However, I am convinced it's worth an application!

cavalier1138
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:44 am

InterLaw wrote:...an impressive list of recent externships in the field of International Law...


You should 100% apply to Vandy and WashU for the regional flexibility and better job opportunities, but be very wary of this line of reasoning. Lots of schools have internship/externship opportunities with great organizations. That doesn't always translate to post-graduation jobs with those groups.

goldenbear2020
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby goldenbear2020 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:22 am

I would advise applying broadly. I've observed several international applicants with high LSATs receive much less money (1/3 to 1/2 scholarships) than American applicants (full or close to full) just above both medians. This makes sense from the law school's perspective because the American applicant can boost both medians, while the international can only help the LSAT median. Also, many law schools have unofficial quotas for international students which can make it harder to get a large scholarship.

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InterLaw
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby InterLaw » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:16 am

goldenbear2020 wrote:I would advise applying broadly. I've observed several international applicants with high LSATs receive much less money (1/3 to 1/2 scholarships) than American applicants (full or close to full) just above both medians. This makes sense from the law school's perspective because the American applicant can boost both medians, while the international can only help the LSAT median. Also, many law schools have unofficial quotas for international students which can make it harder to get a large scholarship.


I applied to 9 schools so far and I have other 5 apps on my way... Would you suggest to go further? Everything in t20 + GWU

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abujabal
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Re: What do you think about these safety options?

Postby abujabal » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:57 pm

InterLaw wrote:
abujabal wrote:At least 15 of those are Gates Scholars, given they take 5 each year. I know that there are at max 9 Gregoires per year, and I don't know what the stipend/scholarship is for them, but that could be what makes up the remaining 16. Worth noting that you'd need at least 90k to be a fullride for an in-state student, and everything on LSN seems to max out at 54k, so I don't know that outside of the named scholarships, there's much opportunity for a full-ride.

I also don't know that there's a ton of legal jobs at the Gates Foundation - they do a lot of direct and program-based aid, so there's not a HUGE need for lawyers, but I'm sure there are JDs somewhere in the building. If you're looking for international work here, there are firms that do it, but I suspect it's mainly transactional stuff for our local giants (Amazon, Boeing, Microsoft, etc.)

Seattle's a dope place to be though, so come hang


Well since I got a fee waiver I could consider an application to see what happens... The Gates Scholarship it's a bit too much right now, but I have a couple of good diversity factors and I could have a shot at the Gregoire's... I mean it's worth the $35 probably!
Also, I am a huge tech fan, and I wouldn't be disgusted at all in working with Amazon and Microsoft. That is not the career path that I have in mind, but starting in Big Law could actually become necessary (visa sponsorship).


I don't know what the criteria are for the Gregoire, so I think your criteria are correct there. With regards to working at either, I definitely think you'd enjoy it. I've met a couple of international lawyers who work for Amazon, and they did exactly that path (Biglaw in SEA > Microsoft/Amazon).




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