GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

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Gordon_Cole
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GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:20 pm

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... rance_test

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/08/northwes ... g-the-gre/

How long before all the dominoes fall? Are 5% acceptance rates coming? Thoughts?

This cycle:
Harvard
Georgetown
ASU

Next cycle:
Northwestern

Not accepting in forseeable future:
Penn - http://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/pe ... t-optional
Last edited by Gordon_Cole on Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:14 am, edited 7 times in total.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:25 pm

I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.

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Gordon_Cole
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:34 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:37 pm

Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.


I think the moment any given law school administration approves it, it will take effect. Schools always want more applicants and a smaller acceptance rate for rankings, plus this is a potential way to get a bunch of really high GPA kids without having to report an lsat. I would be surprised if at least half of the t13 doesn't approve it before October.

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Gordon_Cole
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:40 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.


I think the moment any given law school administration approves it, it will take effect. Schools always want more applicants and a smaller acceptance rate for rankings, plus this is a potential way to get a bunch of really high GPA kids without having to report an lsat. I would be surprised if at least half of the t13 doesn't approve it before October.


But wait, both NU and GU are delaying until next year? They are going to revert their decisions once others go for this year? It seems improbable. I agree we'll see nearly every school accept for next year. I think that most admissions officers will at least wait for Harvard to set a baseline for LSAT - GRE conversion.
Last edited by Gordon_Cole on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:44 pm

Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.


I think the moment any given law school administration approves it, it will take effect. Schools always want more applicants and a smaller acceptance rate for rankings, plus this is a potential way to get a bunch of really high GPA kids without having to report an lsat. I would be surprised if at least half of the t13 doesn't approve it before October.


But wait, both NU and GU are delaying until next year? They are going to revert their decisions once others go for this year? It seems improbable. I agree we'll see nearly every school accept for next year.


I didn't see that Northwestern is for 2019, but it says Georgetown is for the 2018 entering class, which is the class that will be applying starting this month. So Georgetown is immediately putting it into practice.

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Gordon_Cole
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:46 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.


I think the moment any given law school administration approves it, it will take effect. Schools always want more applicants and a smaller acceptance rate for rankings, plus this is a potential way to get a bunch of really high GPA kids without having to report an lsat. I would be surprised if at least half of the t13 doesn't approve it before October.


But wait, both NU and GU are delaying until next year? They are going to revert their decisions once others go for this year? It seems improbable. I agree we'll see nearly every school accept for next year.


I didn't see that Northwestern is for 2019, but it says Georgetown is for the 2018 entering class, which is the class that will be applying starting this month. So Georgetown is immediately putting it into practice.


You're right. I seem to have misread this. This will be an interesting cycle indeed.

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KunAgnis
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby KunAgnis » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:47 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.


I think the moment any given law school administration approves it, it will take effect. Schools always want more applicants and a smaller acceptance rate for rankings, plus this is a potential way to get a bunch of really high GPA kids without having to report an lsat. I would be surprised if at least half of the t13 doesn't approve it before October.


But wait, both NU and GU are delaying until next year? They are going to revert their decisions once others go for this year? It seems improbable. I agree we'll see nearly every school accept for next year.


I didn't see that Northwestern is for 2019, but it says Georgetown is for the 2018 entering class, which is the class that will be applying starting this month. So Georgetown is immediately putting it into practice.


For NU it starts for Class of 2019. Source: the Dean sent a school-wide email.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:48 pm

Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.


The only question is how quickly. I think that 2018 - 2019 cycle is fairly probable for most. It seems quite late for schools to announce they're accepting GRE for this cycle.


I think the moment any given law school administration approves it, it will take effect. Schools always want more applicants and a smaller acceptance rate for rankings, plus this is a potential way to get a bunch of really high GPA kids without having to report an lsat. I would be surprised if at least half of the t13 doesn't approve it before October.


But wait, both NU and GU are delaying until next year? They are going to revert their decisions once others go for this year? It seems improbable. I agree we'll see nearly every school accept for next year.


I didn't see that Northwestern is for 2019, but it says Georgetown is for the 2018 entering class, which is the class that will be applying starting this month. So Georgetown is immediately putting it into practice.


You're right. I seem to have misread this. This will be an interesting cycle indeed.


Yep. I imagine NW might try to speed it up now that GT is doing it for this cycle with Harvard. I imagine a lot of t13 schools will be moving rapidly on this now that dominos are falling.

So OP maybe keep a permanent list in your original post:

This cycle:
Harvard
Georgetown

Next cycle:
Northwestern

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:05 pm

I think the most important reason Georgetown is taking it immediately is because the drop in the rankings. I believe GT believes it can get back to the t13 and make it the t14 again with a lower acceptance rate to help game the ranking criteria a little bit. I believe Harvard is also doing the same to compete again with Stanford and Yale considering they are clearly the 3rd best out of that group now. So it makes perfect sense for purely rankings reasons that both will implement it this year to help decrease their acceptance rate by getting into a new pool of applicants who may previously not have taken the LSAT to apply.

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Gordon_Cole
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:08 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:I think the most important reason Georgetown is taking it immediately is because the drop in the rankings. I believe GT believes it can get back to the t13 and make it the t14 again with a lower acceptance rate to help game the ranking criteria a little bit. I believe Harvard is also doing the same to compete again with Stanford and Yale considering they are clearly the 3rd best out of that group now. So it makes perfect sense for purely rankings reasons that both will implement it this year to help decrease their acceptance rate by getting into a new pool of applicants who may previously not have taken the LSAT to apply.


I was thinking this as well. Tho there are potential risks, which is why I could see other schools holding off.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:09 pm

Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I think the most important reason Georgetown is taking it immediately is because the drop in the rankings. I believe GT believes it can get back to the t13 and make it the t14 again with a lower acceptance rate to help game the ranking criteria a little bit. I believe Harvard is also doing the same to compete again with Stanford and Yale considering they are clearly the 3rd best out of that group now. So it makes perfect sense for purely rankings reasons that both will implement it this year to help decrease their acceptance rate by getting into a new pool of applicants who may previously not have taken the LSAT to apply.


I was thinking this as well. Tho there are potential risks, which is why I could see other schools holding off.


I agree, but if any two schools would be implementing it immediately, I think its clear it would be those two for the same reason.

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Gordon_Cole
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:10 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Gordon_Cole wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I think the most important reason Georgetown is taking it immediately is because the drop in the rankings. I believe GT believes it can get back to the t13 and make it the t14 again with a lower acceptance rate to help game the ranking criteria a little bit. I believe Harvard is also doing the same to compete again with Stanford and Yale considering they are clearly the 3rd best out of that group now. So it makes perfect sense for purely rankings reasons that both will implement it this year to help decrease their acceptance rate by getting into a new pool of applicants who may previously not have taken the LSAT to apply.


I was thinking this as well. Tho there are potential risks, which is why I could see other schools holding off.


I agree, but if any two schools would be implementing it immediately, I think its clear it would be those two for the same reason.


Yes, makes sense!

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:30 pm

The real test is going to be the acceptance numbers for people who only submit a GRE score compared to those who submit similar LSATs. I really doubt that the schools are doing anything but trying to pad their numbers with extra applicants they can turn down.

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby Gordon_Cole » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:38 pm

Apparently ASU did report GRE scores to US NEWS (maybe to ABA) last year - https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... ethodology - so we'll see whether the schools who will accept LSAT this year - H, GU - do the same / are required to report to ABA if it changes its rules in the near future.

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE for 2019

Postby SlackOff » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:09 am

sparkytrainer wrote:I called this the instant Harvard went. Every school is going to follow.

Yep.

RIP splitters. :(

rideagain
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby rideagain » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:58 am

ABA really needs to mandate one or the other imo. Having both options is just hugely unfair to students and gives the schools too much leverage. Do we really want to go back to the 2007-2010 years of 150k applicants and minimal scholarship offers/no negotiating?

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:07 am

rideagain wrote:ABA really needs to mandate one or the other imo. Having both options is just hugely unfair to students and gives the schools too much leverage. Do we really want to go back to the 2007-2010 years of 150k applicants and minimal scholarship offers/no negotiating?

2007-2010 was not THAT long ago and not THAT different. There were still scholarships and negotiations, just more top applicants. And in the grand scheme of the legal profession, barriers to entry aren't a terrible thing.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:21 am

rideagain wrote:ABA really needs to mandate one or the other imo. Having both options is just hugely unfair to students and gives the schools too much leverage. Do we really want to go back to the 2007-2010 years of 150k applicants and minimal scholarship offers/no negotiating?


For the schools, this is exactly what they want. It might not be in the best interest of the students applying, but certainly is for the schools themselves.

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby slurp » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:29 pm

A good article on this:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... -just-lsat

ABA will be discussing more this fall. Apparently NU and GULC expressed that based on their own studies, the GRE is just as good, if not better, at predicting future law school success than the LSAT - which I wouldn't be surprised if proven true over the long run. LSAC says they would consider putting in a math section in future tests.

In a letter addressed to the ABA, deans at other traditional top 20 schools, including UT and USC, also expressed interest in allowing another test, presumably the GRE. I think schools that don't hop on the train led by Harvard's move will see some sort of drop in rankings.

Curious as to how US News will mix GRE and LSAT in the metric once more applicants take the GRE. It'll probably take a couple years before a significant amount of prospective law students become aware that they can take the GRE over the LSAT, but I'm sure it can get there soon enough.

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:39 pm

slurp wrote:ABA will be discussing more this fall. Apparently NU and GULC expressed that based on their own studies, the GRE is just as good, if not better, at predicting future law school success than the LSAT - which I wouldn't be surprised if proven true over the long run.


I would actually be pretty surprised by this, given how much easier it is to score well on the GRE. I wish that someone would actually show us the studies, because all we're hearing now is a general claim of "reliability" without being told about methodology, results, or sample size. If Northwestern just surveyed their students who took both in the past few years without controlling for anything else, then I'm much less inclined to trust that study.

I'm also deeply confused about how this opens doors in any meaningful way. Are students really deciding to not go to law school because they can't schedule around the appointed LSAT times?

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slurp
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby slurp » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:52 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
slurp wrote:ABA will be discussing more this fall. Apparently NU and GULC expressed that based on their own studies, the GRE is just as good, if not better, at predicting future law school success than the LSAT - which I wouldn't be surprised if proven true over the long run.


I would actually be pretty surprised by this, given how much easier it is to score well on the GRE. I wish that someone would actually show us the studies, because all we're hearing now is a general claim of "reliability" without being told about methodology, results, or sample size. If Northwestern just surveyed their students who took both in the past few years without controlling for anything else, then I'm much less inclined to trust that study.

I'm also deeply confused about how this opens doors in any meaningful way. Are students really deciding to not go to law school because they can't schedule around the appointed LSAT times?

I doubt that, say, a 165 GRE and 165 LSAT (both at ~90% percentile) will be looked at equally. There was about 590,000 GRE takers in 2016 compared to about 110,000 LSAT takers in 2016, giving schools a much larger pool of 95%+ percentile GRE takers to pick from. I'm sure most of these takers are capable of getting just as high of an LSAT score if that's where they would focus their study efforts. The LSAT isn't that difficult of a test.

As to how this affects a school's student body, I doubt that it does at all. I'm sure this is all simply a means to up a school's rank and is just a proactive strategy to maintain/rise in rank.
Last edited by slurp on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:55 pm

slurp wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
slurp wrote:ABA will be discussing more this fall. Apparently NU and GULC expressed that based on their own studies, the GRE is just as good, if not better, at predicting future law school success than the LSAT - which I wouldn't be surprised if proven true over the long run.


I would actually be pretty surprised by this, given how much easier it is to score well on the GRE. I wish that someone would actually show us the studies, because all we're hearing now is a general claim of "reliability" without being told about methodology, results, or sample size. If Northwestern just surveyed their students who took both in the past few years without controlling for anything else, then I'm much less inclined to trust that study.

I'm also deeply confused about how this opens doors in any meaningful way. Are students really deciding to not go to law school because they can't schedule around the appointed LSAT times?

I doubt that, say, a 165 GRE and 165 LSAT (both at ~90% percentile) will be looked at equally. There was about 590,000 GRE takers in 2016 compared to about 110,000 LSAT takers in 2016, giving schools a much larger pool of 95%+ percentile GRE takers to pick from. I'm sure most of these takers are capable of getting just as high of an LSAT score if that's were they would focus their study efforts. The LSAT isn't that difficult of a test.


I disagree. I am a 99th percentile scorer on the lsat and gre. I half assed studied for a week and got a 99th percentile gre. It took me a year of legitimate, hard study to do the same with the lsat. The Gre is a significantly easier test, and I think that is pretty universally held.

Edit: I also know other really high scoring gre people who did not get anywhere near the same percentile on the lsat.

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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby slurp » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:59 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
slurp wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
slurp wrote:ABA will be discussing more this fall. Apparently NU and GULC expressed that based on their own studies, the GRE is just as good, if not better, at predicting future law school success than the LSAT - which I wouldn't be surprised if proven true over the long run.


I would actually be pretty surprised by this, given how much easier it is to score well on the GRE. I wish that someone would actually show us the studies, because all we're hearing now is a general claim of "reliability" without being told about methodology, results, or sample size. If Northwestern just surveyed their students who took both in the past few years without controlling for anything else, then I'm much less inclined to trust that study.

I'm also deeply confused about how this opens doors in any meaningful way. Are students really deciding to not go to law school because they can't schedule around the appointed LSAT times?

I doubt that, say, a 165 GRE and 165 LSAT (both at ~90% percentile) will be looked at equally. There was about 590,000 GRE takers in 2016 compared to about 110,000 LSAT takers in 2016, giving schools a much larger pool of 95%+ percentile GRE takers to pick from. I'm sure most of these takers are capable of getting just as high of an LSAT score if that's were they would focus their study efforts. The LSAT isn't that difficult of a test.


I disagree. I am a 99th percentile scorer on the lsat and gre. I half assed studied for a week and got a 99th percentile gre. It took me a year of legitimate, hard study to do the same with the lsat. The Gre is a significantly easier test, and I think that is pretty universally held.

This enhances my argument. You were capable of getting an equivalent LSAT score. Just because you spent more time on studying for the LSAT doesn't mean that you are now more ready for 1L year because of it.

sparkytrainer
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Re: GU and NU accept GRE - The Barbarians at the Gate for LSAC

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:04 pm

slurp wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
slurp wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
slurp wrote:ABA will be discussing more this fall. Apparently NU and GULC expressed that based on their own studies, the GRE is just as good, if not better, at predicting future law school success than the LSAT - which I wouldn't be surprised if proven true over the long run.


I would actually be pretty surprised by this, given how much easier it is to score well on the GRE. I wish that someone would actually show us the studies, because all we're hearing now is a general claim of "reliability" without being told about methodology, results, or sample size. If Northwestern just surveyed their students who took both in the past few years without controlling for anything else, then I'm much less inclined to trust that study.

I'm also deeply confused about how this opens doors in any meaningful way. Are students really deciding to not go to law school because they can't schedule around the appointed LSAT times?

I doubt that, say, a 165 GRE and 165 LSAT (both at ~90% percentile) will be looked at equally. There was about 590,000 GRE takers in 2016 compared to about 110,000 LSAT takers in 2016, giving schools a much larger pool of 95%+ percentile GRE takers to pick from. I'm sure most of these takers are capable of getting just as high of an LSAT score if that's were they would focus their study efforts. The LSAT isn't that difficult of a test.


I disagree. I am a 99th percentile scorer on the lsat and gre. I half assed studied for a week and got a 99th percentile gre. It took me a year of legitimate, hard study to do the same with the lsat. The Gre is a significantly easier test, and I think that is pretty universally held.

This enhances my argument. You were capable of getting an equivalent LSAT score. Just because you spent more time on studying for the LSAT doesn't mean that you are now more ready for 1L year because of it.


I wasn't clear- I was, but multiple friends of mine weren't. But regardless, it took me a significantly longer period of time to get there with the lsat. The gre is just so much easier and it will kill the lsat. If I was applying, it would be stupid to take the lsat.




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