C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

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m16532
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C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:11 pm

I know this is the wrong place to post, I'm sorry
I was just written up at my current part time job for an absurd allegation of harassment. It was just a ridiculous claim by a sensitive girl that she felt uncomfortable after I made a very normal comment about a homosexual customer reminding me of one of our recently terminated homosexual employees. I won't be applying to take the bar and going through the character and fitness test until almost four years from now. Will this be an issue? I'm not a habitual offender, this is a first time thing. I'm on probation for harassment, indefinitely.

I'm really worried because I've been fired from four jobs over the years from being immature for the most part. My assumption is that I'm taking these factors too seriously, considering people have committed actual crimes and still passed.

IExistedOnceBefore
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:21 pm

What was the "very normal comment?"

You might have problems, might not. The four job terminations isn't great.

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:44 pm

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:What was the "very normal comment?"

You might have problems, might not. The four job terminations isn't great.


Four job terminations not great? They were just summer jobs, dating back eight years.

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sublime
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby sublime » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:51 pm

Yea, that's not great.

cavalier1138
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:41 am

m16532 wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:What was the "very normal comment?"

You might have problems, might not. The four job terminations isn't great.


Four job terminations not great? They were just summer jobs, dating back eight years.


Job termination for cause is a problem, especially if your "immaturity" manifested itself as harassment in prior instances too.

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RCSOB657
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby RCSOB657 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:44 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:What was the "very normal comment?"

You might have problems, might not. The four job terminations isn't great.


Four job terminations not great? They were just summer jobs, dating back eight years.


Job termination for cause is a problem, especially if your "immaturity" manifested itself as harassment in prior instances too.


What cavalier said, if it's seen as a trend then it 'could' be a problem.

albanach
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby albanach » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:42 am

Yes, the incident isn't the issue - most folk can that did something wrong can show how the learned from the experience.

What's concerning is the trend. The C&F questionnaire may require you to disclose all four of those dismissals and the writing up. Not unreasonably it is going to cause them concern. The terminations might just be summer jobs to you, but the way the committee is likely to look at it is, C&F only have ten pages of paper and maybe a brief interview by which to judge you. The folk you actually spent meaningful and substantive time with judged you as immature to the point of terminating your employment. Not once, but four times. Then you get written up for what could look like the same sort of behavior.

Rather than those summer jobs now being eight years ago, the recent warning turns it into an eight year period of similar behavior.

So who do they trust? Your pledge that the incidents are uncharacteristic and/or you've changed, or the opinions of five former employers?

There are very few people who post on here who might actually face a difficult time at C&F as a result of the required complete and truthful disclosure. You may be an exception.

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:42 pm

albanach wrote:Yes, the incident isn't the issue - most folk can that did something wrong can show how the learned from the experience.

What's concerning is the trend. The C&F questionnaire may require you to disclose all four of those dismissals and the writing up. Not unreasonably it is going to cause them concern. The terminations might just be summer jobs to you, but the way the committee is likely to look at it is, C&F only have ten pages of paper and maybe a brief interview by which to judge you. The folk you actually spent meaningful and substantive time with judged you as immature to the point of terminating your employment. Not once, but four times. Then you get written up for what could look like the same sort of behavior.

Rather than those summer jobs now being eight years ago, the recent warning turns it into an eight year period of similar behavior.

So who do they trust? Your pledge that the incidents are uncharacteristic and/or you've changed, or the opinions of five former employers?

There are very few people who post on here who might actually face a difficult time at C&F as a result of the required complete and truthful disclosure. You may be an exception.

I'm the exception? This seems a little ridiculous. There are people who have committed serious crimes and have passed the test. When I'm say immaturity, I'm talking about attendance/ opening a product before I payed for it. I can't belive that I have to stress about silly mistakes in my teens and early 20's.

changing_names
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby changing_names » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:13 pm

I think that people on this thread are giving an honest answer in an effort to answer your question. If you don't like the answers you're getting then you can just call your state bar, have them transfer you to their moral character line, and ask them the question (and ask them what you can do to maybe help your case come C&F time). I don't know the state you're in but I know that in California, the Bar folks are always super helpful in answering these types of questions. Additionally, your law school Dean of Students, once you've gotten into law school, can help you in drafting an addendum. Keep in mind that your law school will also need to be informed of this because the Bar contacts the law school to make sure their files are matching and even the slightest thing off will turn that factor into a bigger issue. Most importantly, keep a pristine records with all of your employers from now on. You will want glowing reviews about your character so the Bar folks can comfortably write those indiscretions off as mistakes of youth.

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stego
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby stego » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:21 pm

I'm super curious about the "very normal" comment you made.

"That gay guy who just bought a sandwich reminds me a lot of Gay Jonathan, who was let go last week."

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:49 pm

stego wrote:I'm super curious about the "very normal" comment you made.

"That gay guy who just bought a sandwich reminds me a lot of Gay Jonathan, who was let go last week."

I had just asked a gril if she missed John Doe because her and this guy got hired around the same time and got along well. I LIKED John, part of the reason I asked how she felt he was terminated. 20 mins later, another flamboyant, obviously homosexual guy who's voice was similar to John comes in. She dealt with this customer. My exact words were "oh its like John is here again". She claimed this made her feel uncomfortable.

They also told me they couldn't give me details. The fact that there were "details" is enough for me to know she exaggerated my words. It took me three seconds to say what I said. Not only did they say they couldn't give me details, they didnt even tell me the name of the employee making the allegation. I had to figure it out when she said "well it was about a recently terminated employee". The only hint the manager was willing to give was that my words insinuated that the girl and Johns's relationship was closer than it actually was. But yeah, I was automatically written up.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:58 pm

...are you sure this was about you commenting on the gay customer and that you didn't actually say something to the co-worker about getting along with John that implied they were sleeping together?

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:03 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:...are you sure this was about you commenting on the gay customer and that you didn't actually say something to the co-worker about getting along with John that implied they were sleeping together?

Oh my God. You're definitely kidding right? This was one of the most gay dudes I've ever met. I'm quite certain he wanted to sleep with me.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:08 pm

m16532 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...are you sure this was about you commenting on the gay customer and that you didn't actually say something to the co-worker about getting along with John that implied they were sleeping together?

Oh my God. You're definitely kidding right? This was one of the most gay dudes I've ever met. I'm quite certain he wanted to sleep with me.

Which doesn't really have anything to do with what I said. Did your boss ever actually say it was the comment that the gay guy was like your co-worker that made the girl uncomfortable? Because that doesn't have anything to do with implying their relationship was closer than it was, so I'm confused as to how you got from that to commenting on someone being gay as the issue. It sounds more like commenting on your co-worker's sex life made her uncomfortable.

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barkschool
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby barkschool » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:13 pm

m16532 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...are you sure this was about you commenting on the gay customer and that you didn't actually say something to the co-worker about getting along with John that implied they were sleeping together?

Oh my God. You're definitely kidding right? This was one of the most gay dudes I've ever met. I'm quite certain he wanted to sleep with me.


if the comment was anything like this I can only imagine

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
m16532 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...are you sure this was about you commenting on the gay customer and that you didn't actually say something to the co-worker about getting along with John that implied they were sleeping together?

Oh my God. You're definitely kidding right? This was one of the most gay dudes I've ever met. I'm quite certain he wanted to sleep with me.

Which doesn't really have anything to do with what I said. Did your boss ever actually say it was the comment that the gay guy was like your co-worker that made the girl uncomfortable? Because that doesn't have anything to do with implying their relationship was closer than it was, so I'm confused as to how you got from that to commenting on someone being gay as the issue. It sounds more like commenting on your co-worker's sex life made her uncomfortable.

No. She never told me the exact reason. However it was quite obvious that my comment about these two people being similar is what obsurdly made her feel uncomfortable. That was the only thing I said. The conversation prior to the customer coming in was not part of the allegation. You are correct, the so called implication is indeed senseless. The only imaginable explanation is that by me saying "its like he's here again" implied that she likes to befriend gay people. She was at the time, sparking up a conversation with this person.

Maybe she thought I was saying she can only get attention from gay people, which would be mean, I have to admit. Everyone at my job who I have shared this with agrees that the girl is just a weirdo.

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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:26 am

m16532 wrote:I'm the exception? This seems a little ridiculous. There are people who have committed serious crimes and have passed the test. When I'm say immaturity, I'm talking about attendance/ opening a product before I payed for it. I can't belive that I have to stress about silly mistakes in my teens and early 20's.


See, this is the problem. You keep filtering all of these C&F issues through your perspective, which is not what schools/the bar will be seeing. They aren't going to be seeing "immaturity" with those two example firings. They're going to see someone who didn't bother to show up for work and someone who stole product from their job. But this has less to do with what you did to get fired and more to do with the fact that you seem incapable of admitting that you actually, legitimately fucked up. If you can't take responsibility for your actions, there are going to be additional red flags raised beyond the "fired from multiple jobs" issue.

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:32 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:I'm the exception? This seems a little ridiculous. There are people who have committed serious crimes and have passed the test. When I'm say immaturity, I'm talking about attendance/ opening a product before I payed for it. I can't belive that I have to stress about silly mistakes in my teens and early 20's.


See, this is the problem. You keep filtering all of these C&F issues through your perspective, which is not what schools/the bar will be seeing. They aren't going to be seeing "immaturity" with those two example firings. They're going to see someone who didn't bother to show up for work and someone who stole product from their job. But this has less to do with what you did to get fired and more to do with the fact that you seem incapable of admitting that you actually, legitimately fucked up. If you can't take responsibility for your actions, there are going to be additional red flags raised beyond the "fired from multiple jobs" issue.

I never said my mistakes weren't mistakes. I said the majority of them were years ago and not on a murder/rape scale. Time matters. People learn and grow as I have. The thought that I could go to an elite school and do well just to have my career ruined from past nothings is absurd. That's not my perspective. It is what it is.

mcmand
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby mcmand » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:50 pm

m16532 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:I'm the exception? This seems a little ridiculous. There are people who have committed serious crimes and have passed the test. When I'm say immaturity, I'm talking about attendance/ opening a product before I payed for it. I can't belive that I have to stress about silly mistakes in my teens and early 20's.


See, this is the problem. You keep filtering all of these C&F issues through your perspective, which is not what schools/the bar will be seeing. They aren't going to be seeing "immaturity" with those two example firings. They're going to see someone who didn't bother to show up for work and someone who stole product from their job. But this has less to do with what you did to get fired and more to do with the fact that you seem incapable of admitting that you actually, legitimately fucked up. If you can't take responsibility for your actions, there are going to be additional red flags raised beyond the "fired from multiple jobs" issue.

I never said my mistakes weren't mistakes. I said the majority of them were years ago and not on a murder/rape scale. Time matters. People learn and grow as I have. The thought that I could go to an elite school and do well just to have my career ruined from past nothings is absurd. That's not my perspective. It is what it is.


Look dude, character and fitness boards/committees for each state bar have denied people for a ton of things that are not murder and rape. Yes, there are a tiny handful of people with crimes of that nature on their record that apply to the bar each year, but their presence will not make them weigh things in your favor just because you're not a homicidal rapist.

Everyone on this thread has told you point blank that the four terminations, and a potential fifth one coming down the pike if you're not careful, are a huge red flag. I agree with everything they said and throw in my two cents as a former bar admissions employee that I also think it's a huge red flag. If you take anything away from this, at least understand that while you don't think it's a big deal, everyone else (including the bar) does. Character and fitness do not turn solely on criminal records. All of your past conduct is taken into account, and all of your previous employers will be contacted. You need to do a lot of repair work to minimize the damage.

From this moment onward, if you want to keep your legal career from imploding before it starts, you need to keep your mouth shut at work until you know how to not speak every random thought that pops into your head. And make sure you actually show up to your shifts on time and don't open things up before purchasing them. Time to master these basic aspects of being an employee. Time to start impressing every employer you have going forward with your diligence and ethical behavior, along with how respectful you are now going to be to every colleague and customer.

I hope you have learned and grown from your previous mistakes, as you say you have. That's something you can address on your bar application. But only as part of you fully accepting the wrongfulness of your conduct, and your responsibility in the result that followed (termination). If you don't do both parts (showing growth and showing acceptance of responsibility and acknowledgment of harm to others), then you will likely get a negative response from the C&F folks at the bar. What you did weren't past "nothings" by the bar's standard, even if you think they are. Recalibrate your expectations to what the bar wants, not the way you want it to be.

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:27 pm

mcmand wrote:
m16532 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:I'm the exception? This seems a little ridiculous. There are people who have committed serious crimes and have passed the test. When I'm say immaturity, I'm talking about attendance/ opening a product before I payed for it. I can't belive that I have to stress about silly mistakes in my teens and early 20's.


See, this is the problem. You keep filtering all of these C&F issues through your perspective, which is not what schools/the bar will be seeing. They aren't going to be seeing "immaturity" with those two example firings. They're going to see someone who didn't bother to show up for work and someone who stole product from their job. But this has less to do with what you did to get fired and more to do with the fact that you seem incapable of admitting that you actually, legitimately fucked up. If you can't take responsibility for your actions, there are going to be additional red flags raised beyond the "fired from multiple jobs" issue.

I never said my mistakes weren't mistakes. I said the majority of them were years ago and not on a murder/rape scale. Time matters. People learn and grow as I have. The thought that I could go to an elite school and do well just to have my career ruined from past nothings is absurd. That's not my perspective. It is what it is.


Look dude, character and fitness boards/committees for each state bar have denied people for a ton of things that are not murder and rape. Yes, there are a tiny handful of people with crimes of that nature on their record that apply to the bar each year, but their presence will not make them weigh things in your favor just because you're not a homicidal rapist.

Everyone on this thread has told you point blank that the four terminations, and a potential fifth one coming down the pike if you're not careful, are a huge red flag. I agree with everything they said and throw in my two cents as a former bar admissions employee that I also think it's a huge red flag. If you take anything away from this, at least understand that while you don't think it's a big deal, everyone else (including the bar) does. Character and fitness do not turn solely on criminal records. All of your past conduct is taken into account, and all of your previous employers will be contacted. You need to do a lot of repair work to minimize the damage.

From this moment onward, if you want to keep your legal career from imploding before it starts, you need to keep your mouth shut at work until you know how to not speak every random thought that pops into your head. And make sure you actually show up to your shifts on time and don't open things up before purchasing them. Time to master these basic aspects of being an employee. Time to start impressing every employer you have going forward with your diligence and ethical behavior, along with how respectful you are now going to be to every colleague and customer.

I hope you have learned and grown from your previous mistakes, as you say you have. That's something you can address on your bar application. But only as part of you fully accepting the wrongfulness of your conduct, and your responsibility in the result that followed (termination). If you don't do both parts (showing growth and showing acceptance of responsibility and acknowledgment of harm to others), then you will likely get a negative response from the C&F folks at the bar. What you did weren't past "nothings" by the bar's standard, even if you think they are. Recalibrate your expectations to what the bar wants, not the way you want it to be.

If I'm able to secure summer associate positions while in law school, my professionalism there would greatly outweigh that of non legal positions, correct?

cavalier1138
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:30 pm

m16532 wrote:If I'm able to secure summer associate positions while in law school, my professionalism there would greatly outweigh that of non legal positions, correct?


Why would it?

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:40 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:If I'm able to secure summer associate positions while in law school, my professionalism there would greatly outweigh that of non legal positions, correct?


Why would it?

Because I've read that Legal jobs are more important. The purpose of the test in part is to make sure future lawyers are not a risk to society. This makes sense. I'm saying it makes sense logically, not in my defense. Losing a position at a summer job is not as important concerning fitness for the legal world.

cavalier1138
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:42 pm

m16532 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:If I'm able to secure summer associate positions while in law school, my professionalism there would greatly outweigh that of non legal positions, correct?


Why would it?

Because I've read that Legal jobs are more important. The purpose of the test in part is to make sure future lawyers are not a risk to society. This makes sense. I'm saying it makes sense logically, not in my defense. Losing a position at a summer job is not as important concerning fitness for the legal world.


Ok. You can use the bold type all you want, but that's not remotely the issue. This is about your character (that's what the "C" stands for). The fact that you've been the world's worst employee in five different jobs is not going to be offset by you getting your shit together for two months in the summer because you switched fields.

Listen to the advice you've already been given and stop trying to look for excuses or shortcuts.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:43 pm

You will have spent less time in legal jobs than you will in non-legal jobs, so you will have a longer history of non-legal work to be assessed. And how you performed in a summer job is seen as evidence of how you will handle the legal world.

(scooped)

m16532
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Re: C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment

Postby m16532 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:53 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
m16532 wrote:If I'm able to secure summer associate positions while in law school, my professionalism there would greatly outweigh that of non legal positions, correct?


Why would it?

Because I've read that Legal jobs are more important. The purpose of the test in part is to make sure future lawyers are not a risk to society. This makes sense. I'm saying it makes sense logically, not in my defense. Losing a position at a summer job is not as important concerning fitness for the legal world.


Ok. You can use the bold type all you want, but that's not remotely the issue. This is about your character (that's what the "C" stands for). The fact that you've been the world's worst employee in five different jobs is not going to be offset by you getting your shit together for two months in the summer because you switched fields.

Listen to the advice you've already been given and stop trying to look for excuses or shortcuts.

The world's worst employee? The last job I got fired from was a position I held off and on for nine years. They told me it was a hard decision. I'm not going to go into the details, however they would not and will not once contacted, describe me as the worst employee. At the job before that, the manager called corporate because she liked be and really didn't want to let me go. She had to because a customer had stolen something I was responsible for with a value over 70 dollars.

The two jobs before that were mainly because of intolarable immaturity eight years ago. So I'm not making excuses or taking shortcuts, I have legit points. Anyway, while I appreciate and respect the perspectives of everyone, some of you seem to be really off here. I have read many supreme court decisions on this matter and my past is no where close to the controversial files I analyzed. In fact there have been quite a few cases where people lost meaninglessness jobs while in undergrad and it wasnt even brought up.




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