Venting and seeking some advice

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sdfm2008

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Venting and seeking some advice

Postby sdfm2008 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:11 pm

TL;DR -- Thought I was approaching the law school application process with a 3.9+ GPA / 164+ LSAT after going through a five-year process to determine that law school was the right path for me.

In a pretty devastating turn of events for me, I found out that I'm going to have a sub 3.0 GPA and I'm strongly considering dropping the idea of going to law school altogether. My family doesn't understand how important GPA is to the admissions process and they're urging me to move forward with things. I'm hoping to get some realistic and dispassionate feedback.

Background info:

I did extremely well in HS and accepted an academic scholarship to a small state school where I enrolled in the Fall of 2008. During my first two semesters I did pretty poorly -- I played a sport and as an immature 17-year-old my studies took a back seat to my newfound freedom, social life, and athletics. My overall GPA for my first year was bad but not insurmountable: I sat at an even 3.20.

Two weeks prior to final exams during my third semester I was responsible for a serious accident with my high school sweetheart. I had bumps and bruises. She ended up partially paralyzed after a life-saving operation and months in the hospital. A division one athlete with all-conference and academic honors at a powerhouse school, she would likely never return to the field -- and possibly not the classroom either. I failed three of my four classes that semester and followed that up with a 1.2 GPA the next semester. In the Spring of '09, I dropped out of school.

Time brought light to the devouring darkness I had been dealing with and Sweetheart made a miraculous recovery. With things shaping up, I decided to go back and get a college degree. I found an elite private school that saw the promising student I was in high school instead of the failure I had become in college and in the Fall of '12 I enrolled.

I struggled adjusting during my first semester. I was surrounded by brilliant peers who were deeply devoted to their studies. My professors were unbelievably demanding. At my previous school you could get by with a good grade if you studied a couple hours a week for each class. At my new school you studied 40+ hours a week if you wanted to get a decent grade. But I was surrounded by outstanding people who stimulated my intellectual curiosity to its max and allowed me to reach my full potential as a student.

I got a 3.53 that semester and that was the last time in my college career that I would get less than a perfect 4.0 in a class.

I developed a keen interest in law during my final three years of school through a variety of classes and internship programs. After graduating with top honors in 2015 I decided to explore that interest even further by working as a paralegal while I prepared for the LSAT. After almost two years of working as a paralegal and assisting on substantive issues in a variety of practice areas, I decided that law school was indeed an appropriate right path for me. The only thing standing in my way was the LSAT which I had been working on every day for two years. I scored a 164 this past fall.

"Study and retake" was the advice I received unanimously. So study and retake is what I've been doing. But it wasn't until I looked further at the application process that I realized the LSAC will include my state college GPA. After doing the calculations, I've come to the realization that I'll have a sub 3.0 GPA.

Very quickly I realized that the T14s I've been dreaming about and researching for the past five years are not realistic options. All of the personal sacrifices I've made over the past five years are irrelevant: Saturdays with my nose in the books at 2AM while my friends were out making memories; working 100+ hours per week in the summer instead of resting my brain; the countless dinners, bar nights, family events, birthdays, holidays that I missed because I was uncompromisingly committed to my legal work and studies.

I can't shake the realization that while my peers who looked up to me as the class's standout will be attending the Harvard, Yale, and Stanfords of the world, I would be attending a bad local school at a six-figure price tag. While my peers will ultimately go on to prestigious clerkships and amazing BigLaw gigs, I would be fighting tooth-and-nail just to accept a full-time legal job that satisfies the bills paycheck to paycheck.

Is this a bad reaction or am I right to think that my GPA is bad enough that I ought to consider the past five+ years of my life a sunk cost and start thinking about a more sensible business decision for my future?

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:17 pm

While YHS is probably out of the running, a 175+ LSAT can still get you into the T14 with scholarship.

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HarveySpecterr

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby HarveySpecterr » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:37 pm

sdfm2008 wrote:TL;DR -- Thought I was approaching the law school application process with a 3.9+ GPA / 164+ LSAT after going through a five-year process to determine that law school was the right path for me.

In a pretty devastating turn of events for me, I found out that I'm going to have a sub 3.0 GPA and I'm strongly considering dropping the idea of going to law school altogether. My family doesn't understand how important GPA is to the admissions process and they're urging me to move forward with things. I'm hoping to get some realistic and dispassionate feedback.

Background info:

I did extremely well in HS and accepted an academic scholarship to a small state school where I enrolled in the Fall of 2008. During my first two semesters I did pretty poorly -- I played a sport and as an immature 17-year-old my studies took a back seat to my newfound freedom, social life, and athletics. My overall GPA for my first year was bad but not insurmountable: I sat at an even 3.20.

Two weeks prior to final exams during my third semester I was responsible for a serious accident with my high school sweetheart. I had bumps and bruises. She ended up partially paralyzed after a life-saving operation and months in the hospital. A division one athlete with all-conference and academic honors at a powerhouse school, she would likely never return to the field -- and possibly not the classroom either. I failed three of my four classes that semester and followed that up with a 1.2 GPA the next semester. In the Spring of '09, I dropped out of school.

Time brought light to the devouring darkness I had been dealing with and Sweetheart made a miraculous recovery. With things shaping up, I decided to go back and get a college degree. I found an elite private school that saw the promising student I was in high school instead of the failure I had become in college and in the Fall of '12 I enrolled.

I struggled adjusting during my first semester. I was surrounded by brilliant peers who were deeply devoted to their studies. My professors were unbelievably demanding. At my previous school you could get by with a good grade if you studied a couple hours a week for each class. At my new school you studied 40+ hours a week if you wanted to get a decent grade. But I was surrounded by outstanding people who stimulated my intellectual curiosity to its max and allowed me to reach my full potential as a student.

I got a 3.53 that semester and that was the last time in my college career that I would get less than a perfect 4.0 in a class.

I developed a keen interest in law during my final three years of school through a variety of classes and internship programs. After graduating with top honors in 2015 I decided to explore that interest even further by working as a paralegal while I prepared for the LSAT. After almost two years of working as a paralegal and assisting on substantive issues in a variety of practice areas, I decided that law school was indeed an appropriate right path for me. The only thing standing in my way was the LSAT which I had been working on every day for two years. I scored a 164 this past fall.

"Study and retake" was the advice I received unanimously. So study and retake is what I've been doing. But it wasn't until I looked further at the application process that I realized the LSAC will include my state college GPA. After doing the calculations, I've come to the realization that I'll have a sub 3.0 GPA.

Very quickly I realized that the T14s I've been dreaming about and researching for the past five years are not realistic options. All of the personal sacrifices I've made over the past five years are irrelevant: Saturdays with my nose in the books at 2AM while my friends were out making memories; working 100+ hours per week in the summer instead of resting my brain; the countless dinners, bar nights, family events, birthdays, holidays that I missed because I was uncompromisingly committed to my legal work and studies.

I can't shake the realization that while my peers who looked up to me as the class's standout will be attending the Harvard, Yale, and Stanfords of the world, I would be attending a bad local school at a six-figure price tag. While my peers will ultimately go on to prestigious clerkships and amazing BigLaw gigs, I would be fighting tooth-and-nail just to accept a full-time legal job that satisfies the bills paycheck to paycheck.

Is this a bad reaction or am I right to think that my GPA is bad enough that I ought to consider the past five+ years of my life a sunk cost and start thinking about a more sensible business decision for my future?


I think you can still make it. As Hagan says, YHS might be a no-go at this point, but if you've really got the kind of determination you describe in your original post, I don't see why you couldn't get your LSAT score up into the 170's and snag a seat at a lower T14. Especially if you include that story as a well-written (read: as brief as possible and highly polished) addendum explaining how an A-caliber student wound up with a GPA below 3. Some places like Northwestern and Georgetown are known for showing mercy to "splitters," and I'd imagine it's people like you for whom they make such exceptions.

Bottom line: anything is possible, right? Your girl experienced a "miraculous" physical recovery -- your word -- so maybe now you will experience a miraculous academic one.
Last edited by HarveySpecterr on Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sdfm2008

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby sdfm2008 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:38 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While YHS is probably out of the running, a 175+ LSAT can still get you into the T14 with scholarship.


I appreciate the optimism but I just don't think I'm hitting 175+. I've been working on my LSAT score for two years. I diagnosed at 159 and I slowly improved to the 163-166 range. I've spent a lot of hard-earned money on tutors and classes and I've followed all of the recommendations you'll see here and anywhere else when it comes to self-study (7Sage et al). Everybody has their limit and unfortunately I think 175+ is well above mine.

Rigo

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby Rigo » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:40 pm

While a bad GPA can be overcome, you 100% need to retake and get into the 170 level to have tolerable debt at a T20.

It seems you're a little hung up on the prestige aspect of top schools though, so yeah, I encourage you to take a step back and reflect if law school is really the right move for you. You need to be truly dedicated it to take on the level of debt that is likely coming your way.
Maybe you can luck out with a super solid WUSTL scholarship if you do well on the LSAT, but that will take dedication. And you need to determine if your goals are achievable from a more regional affordable option.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:42 pm

sdfm2008 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While YHS is probably out of the running, a 175+ LSAT can still get you into the T14 with scholarship.


I appreciate the optimism but I just don't think I'm hitting 175+. I've been working on my LSAT score for two years. I diagnosed at 159 and I slowly improved to the 163-166 range. I've spent a lot of hard-earned money on tutors and classes and I've followed all of the recommendations you'll see here and anywhere else when it comes to self-study (7Sage et al). Everybody has their limit and unfortunately I think 175+ is well above mine.


It's true that 175+ is easier said than done, but even if you score a 170+ I can see you snatching up at least a T20. I know a couple of people that had like a 3.0/169 and got a decent scholarship at the T-20s.

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby BobBoblaw » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:42 pm

You don't need to gun for 175+, another 5 or 6 points will probably get you into one or two t13s, or several t20s with $$.

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HarveySpecterr

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby HarveySpecterr » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:44 pm

sdfm2008 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While YHS is probably out of the running, a 175+ LSAT can still get you into the T14 with scholarship.


I appreciate the optimism but I just don't think I'm hitting 175+. I've been working on my LSAT score for two years. I diagnosed at 159 and I slowly improved to the 163-166 range. I've spent a lot of hard-earned money on tutors and classes and I've followed all of the recommendations you'll see here and anywhere else when it comes to self-study (7Sage et al). Everybody has their limit and unfortunately I think 175+ is well above mine.


I would have said 170, maybe 172. And about those limitations . . . they're not real.

sdfm2008

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby sdfm2008 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:45 pm

HarveySpecterr wrote:
sdfm2008 wrote:TL;DR -- Thought I was approaching the law school application process with a 3.9+ GPA / 164+ LSAT after going through a five-year process to determine that law school was the right path for me.

In a pretty devastating turn of events for me, I found out that I'm going to have a sub 3.0 GPA and I'm strongly considering dropping the idea of going to law school altogether. My family doesn't understand how important GPA is to the admissions process and they're urging me to move forward with things. I'm hoping to get some realistic and dispassionate feedback.

Background info:

I did extremely well in HS and accepted an academic scholarship to a small state school where I enrolled in the Fall of 2008. During my first two semesters I did pretty poorly -- I played a sport and as an immature 17-year-old my studies took a back seat to my newfound freedom, social life, and athletics. My overall GPA for my first year was bad but not insurmountable: I sat at an even 3.20.

Two weeks prior to final exams during my third semester I was responsible for a serious accident with my high school sweetheart. I had bumps and bruises. She ended up partially paralyzed after a life-saving operation and months in the hospital. A division one athlete with all-conference and academic honors at a powerhouse school, she would likely never return to the field -- and possibly not the classroom either. I failed three of my four classes that semester and followed that up with a 1.2 GPA the next semester. In the Spring of '09, I dropped out of school.

Time brought light to the devouring darkness I had been dealing with and Sweetheart made a miraculous recovery. With things shaping up, I decided to go back and get a college degree. I found an elite private school that saw the promising student I was in high school instead of the failure I had become in college and in the Fall of '12 I enrolled.

I struggled adjusting during my first semester. I was surrounded by brilliant peers who were deeply devoted to their studies. My professors were unbelievably demanding. At my previous school you could get by with a good grade if you studied a couple hours a week for each class. At my new school you studied 40+ hours a week if you wanted to get a decent grade. But I was surrounded by outstanding people who stimulated my intellectual curiosity to its max and allowed me to reach my full potential as a student.

I got a 3.53 that semester and that was the last time in my college career that I would get less than a perfect 4.0 in a class.

I developed a keen interest in law during my final three years of school through a variety of classes and internship programs. After graduating with top honors in 2015 I decided to explore that interest even further by working as a paralegal while I prepared for the LSAT. After almost two years of working as a paralegal and assisting on substantive issues in a variety of practice areas, I decided that law school was indeed an appropriate right path for me. The only thing standing in my way was the LSAT which I had been working on every day for two years. I scored a 164 this past fall.

"Study and retake" was the advice I received unanimously. So study and retake is what I've been doing. But it wasn't until I looked further at the application process that I realized the LSAC will include my state college GPA. After doing the calculations, I've come to the realization that I'll have a sub 3.0 GPA.

Very quickly I realized that the T14s I've been dreaming about and researching for the past five years are not realistic options. All of the personal sacrifices I've made over the past five years are irrelevant: Saturdays with my nose in the books at 2AM while my friends were out making memories; working 100+ hours per week in the summer instead of resting my brain; the countless dinners, bar nights, family events, birthdays, holidays that I missed because I was uncompromisingly committed to my legal work and studies.

I can't shake the realization that while my peers who looked up to me as the class's standout will be attending the Harvard, Yale, and Stanfords of the world, I would be attending a bad local school at a six-figure price tag. While my peers will ultimately go on to prestigious clerkships and amazing BigLaw gigs, I would be fighting tooth-and-nail just to accept a full-time legal job that satisfies the bills paycheck to paycheck.

Is this a bad reaction or am I right to think that my GPA is bad enough that I ought to consider the past five+ years of my life a sunk cost and start thinking about a more sensible business decision for my future?


I think you can still make it. As Hagan says, YHS might be a no-go at this point, but if you've really got the kind of determination you describe in your original post, I don't see why you couldn't get your LSAT score up into the 170's and snag a seat at a lower T14. Especially if you include that story as a well-written (read: as brief as possible and highly polished) addendum explaining how an A-caliber student wound up with a GPA below 3. Some places like Northwestern and Georgetown are known for showing mercy to "splitters," and I'd imagine it's people like you for whom they make such exceptions.

Bottom line: anything is possible, right? Your girl experienced a "miraculous" physical recovery -- your word -- so maybe now you will experience a miraculous academic one.


I appreciate the note.

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby Scurvy Cur » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:54 pm

Small steps, man, don't aim for a 10 point jump right away. You said you've pushed your PTs up to 166. Sharpening that just a little bit can get you into low 170s territory, and that little jump makes a huge difference, so aim for that. Once you're there, you can try to add extra points here and there until test day. It's definitely easier said than done, but well worth the effort. A solid LSAT really is the way to get past a problematic GPA.

sdfm2008

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby sdfm2008 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:59 pm

Rigo wrote:While a bad GPA can be overcome, you 100% need to retake and get into the 170 level to have tolerable debt at a T20.

It seems you're a little hung up on the prestige aspect of top schools though, so yeah, I encourage you to take a step back and reflect if law school is really the right move for you. You need to be truly dedicated it to take on the level of debt that is likely coming your way.
Maybe you can luck out with a super solid WUSTL scholarship if you do well on the LSAT, but that will take dedication. And you need to determine if your goals are achievable from a more regional affordable option.


I didn't come off well in that post. The prestige isn't the big factor. It's access to the most desirable jobs that I'm worried about which from what I understand typically requires, among other things, attendance at a highly ranked school. I have a close friend who got a federal clerkship and another who worked on a globally recognized negotiation at a V10 firm. For years I've been dreaming about earning an opportunity for roles like those. I don't mean to belittle anybody who isn't going to Yale on a full-ride. I'm just a little bit disappointed with myself and my situation.

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HarveySpecterr

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby HarveySpecterr » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:36 pm

sdfm2008 wrote:
Rigo wrote:While a bad GPA can be overcome, you 100% need to retake and get into the 170 level to have tolerable debt at a T20.

It seems you're a little hung up on the prestige aspect of top schools though, so yeah, I encourage you to take a step back and reflect if law school is really the right move for you. You need to be truly dedicated it to take on the level of debt that is likely coming your way.
Maybe you can luck out with a super solid WUSTL scholarship if you do well on the LSAT, but that will take dedication. And you need to determine if your goals are achievable from a more regional affordable option.


I didn't come off well in that post. The prestige isn't the big factor. It's access to the most desirable jobs that I'm worried about which from what I understand typically requires, among other things, attendance at a highly ranked school. I have a close friend who got a federal clerkship and another who worked on a globally recognized negotiation at a V10 firm. For years I've been dreaming about earning an opportunity for roles like those. I don't mean to belittle anybody who isn't going to Yale on a full-ride. I'm just a little bit disappointed with myself and my situation.


Look at this spreadsheet. It's UVA applicants for the current cycle. Check out #9, Meerkat. GPA is 2.69, LSAT is 170. Not a female; not a URM; in at UVA.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Rigo

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby Rigo » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:39 pm

I will caution you up front that the debt even if you get into T13 schools might not be worth it and could really harm your future. Something to consider before you set out and spend years on your life on law school admissions.

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby AJordan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:49 pm

It's not a sunk cost as long as you don't put yourself into serious debt. Your abilities may not guarantee law school success but you likely have a good deal of perspective that many students at regional schools don't have. If you can figure out how to be successful in law school you're going to be fine if that's the route you choose as long as you go somewhere where you'll accrue zero debt. What's the downside? A JD and three more years spent studying for it? Just don't. Take. Any. Debt. I'm in the same boat fwiw and I wish you luck.
Last edited by AJordan on Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

sdfm2008

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby sdfm2008 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:05 am

Thanks for the input everyone. It sounds like the LSAT could be a chance for redemption.

I'm registered for the June LSAT. Last fall I scored a 164. Before that I was practicing in the 163-166 range. I've saved up enough money to live off of for a few months and I think I may put in my two weeks at work and devote myself to studying full-time.

Should I plan on registering for September and spending the summer studying or is two months enough time to improve from the low to mid 160s to 170+?

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby RaceJudicata » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:18 am

sdfm2008 wrote:Thanks for the input everyone. It sounds like the LSAT could be a chance for redemption.

I'm registered for the June LSAT. Last fall I scored a 164. Before that I was practicing in the 163-166 range. I've saved up enough money to live off of for a few months and I think I may put in my two weeks at work and devote myself to studying full-time.

Should I plan on registering for September and spending the summer studying or is two months enough time to improve from the low to mid 160s to 170+?


You don't need to quit your job dude. This seems crazy to me. Don't take June if you aren't ready, but also don't quit your job and put - quite literally - all your eggs in this basket. The stress will eat you alive and you WILL do poorly on the exam.

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studyingeveryday

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby studyingeveryday » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:54 am

sdfm2008 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While YHS is probably out of the running, a 175+ LSAT can still get you into the T14 with scholarship.


I appreciate the optimism but I just don't think I'm hitting 175+. I've been working on my LSAT score for two years. I diagnosed at 159 and I slowly improved to the 163-166 range. I've spent a lot of hard-earned money on tutors and classes and I've followed all of the recommendations you'll see here and anywhere else when it comes to self-study (7Sage et al). Everybody has their limit and unfortunately I think 175+ is well above mine.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but just wanted to say that a 159 is an AMAZING diagnostic score. Seriously. I'm not particularly fond of the LSAT and can't be much help, but you should post in the LSAT forum and talk about your particular weaknesses and see if you can get help there. Which section do you struggle with most?

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HarveySpecterr

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby HarveySpecterr » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:00 am

sdfm2008 wrote:Thanks for the input everyone. It sounds like the LSAT could be a chance for redemption.

I'm registered for the June LSAT. Last fall I scored a 164. Before that I was practicing in the 163-166 range. I've saved up enough money to live off of for a few months and I think I may put in my two weeks at work and devote myself to studying full-time.

Should I plan on registering for September and spending the summer studying or is two months enough time to improve from the low to mid 160s to 170+?


That's hard to predict; the jump from a 150's LSAT to a mid 160's is much easier to make than the jump from mid-160's to the 170's. That's where I am with my LSAT currently, scoring 166-169 range on PTs and trying my ass off to get above the 170 mark -- it's tough. Every one of those damn LR and RC sections has a small handful of extra hard questions; really it's all about whether you can master those suckers.

Anyway, to answer your question, I'd wait and see what you get in June before registering for September. You might score high enough that you won't need to do it again. Wouldn't quit the job though, unless: 1. the hours are so long and sufficiently draining that you cannot devote at least 10 hours a week to LSAT prep, 2. you despise how it drains your soul of juju, AND 3. it's easily replaceable in the event that you regret having done so and wish you had it back. In other words, if that savings account runs out and you're still stuck in the 160's, but don't think you can get another job as good as the one you want to quit now, don't do it. If you do think you could, then I say f*@! it, man. Tell your manager to shove it, you're gonna go be a lawyer. audentes Fortuna iuvat

Npret

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Re: Venting and seeking some advice

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:02 am

You want to be like your friends or you want to be a lawyer yourself?



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