When to Take the Money and Run?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Full Ride vs Full Loans

Full Ride (CLS/NYU/UCHI/etc)
62
71%
Full Loans (Yale)
23
26%
Other (Full Loans at Stanford)
2
2%
 
Total votes: 87

Brutus_the_Younger

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Postby Brutus_the_Younger » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:46 am

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Last edited by Brutus_the_Younger on Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nebby

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:48 am

Brutus_the_Younger wrote:I will almost certainly take Yale, but in the interests of full investigation:

I wish to practice big law long enough to pay off my loans and buy a place, but then I'd love diverse exit options such as academia, becoming a judge, going in house at a company, becoming involved in a startup, etc. I know the AnBryce is a great program, and the thought of graduating debt free is sexy as hell, but my gut tells me that Yale is the smarter move for the long-run. Plus it'd be cool to be a member of the Yale Club.

Differing opinions, or am I on the right track?

lol

My favorite thing about sticker-suckers are the ones who want to go into academia when they have absolutely zero idea what it entails or whether they'd like it at all

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:50 am

Brutus_the_Younger wrote:Do people go into law school knowing they'll be professors and scholars? My impression was that many practice for a career and then enter academia. I'm only just exploring these options now because I was honestly initially shooting for lower-ranked schools. I never considered Yale, or even Stanford or Harvard, a real or likely possibility - therefore my career focus was much more narrow than it is now that I've been accept to my dream school and my imagination is running wild.

I don't know, apparently you do?

Brutus_the_Younger

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Postby Brutus_the_Younger » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:51 am

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Last edited by Brutus_the_Younger on Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nebby

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:51 am

Nvm, all of the fart-huffing and stockholm syndrome makes sense; brutus is OP of the yale thread hahahahaha

viewtopic.php?p=9829514#p9829514

Nebby

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:52 am

Brutus_the_Younger wrote:I was just having fun but you want to get personal and dig through my post history - guess I hit a nerve :lol:

lol

I wanted to show OP that you are in the exact same position they are and therefore they should take your advice with that in mind.

Brutus_the_Younger

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Postby Brutus_the_Younger » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:52 am

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Last edited by Brutus_the_Younger on Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:04 am

Brutus_the_Younger wrote:Do people go into law school knowing they'll be professors and scholars? My impression was that many practice for a career and then enter academia. I'm only just exploring these options now because I was honestly initially shooting for lower-ranked schools. I never considered Yale, or even Stanford or Harvard, a real or likely possibility - therefore my career focus was much more narrow than it is now that I've been accept to my dream school and my imagination is running wild.


The traditional path to academia is go to Yale or maybe Harvard, do a clerkship (preferably SCOTUS), get tenure and profit. This describes a good chunk of my older professors. It does not describe my younger professors as well- almost all of them either have Ph.ds in another subject (usually econ, history, or philosophy) or they have several years of interesting practice. They're also less likely to have gone to Yale or Harvard.

I can only think of one young professor who did the more traditional route, and he was EIC of yale's law review and did 2 COA clerkships and a SCOTUS clerkship.

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lymenheimer

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby lymenheimer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:12 am

lymenheimer wrote:(Goes Admitted to Yale)
(Is sps at making/understanding argument)

I knew that you didn't have to work to do well, but damn. Alternatively: They must teach you fine, practical things at that prestigious institution.

TIL Yale admits lemons.

Edited for accuracy.


Because it was going to get buried.

Stimpy

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Stimpy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:35 pm

Hey - OP again. Appreciate the discussion and have two more questions I've been researching, hoping you have insight to share.

In this article (https://top-law-schools.com/gSnO1x), seeing 34% of Yale grads received federal clerkships vs. 15% at UChi. Wondering how strong of a factor that difference should be for a person interested in a litigation career in public interest.

Would also like to know if anyone has insight on the differences between UChicago and Yale teaching styles. From conversations with students, I've been told UChi is primarily socratic method / black letter and Yale is a combo of socratic method and discussion-oriented classes?

cavalier1138

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:41 pm

Stimpy wrote:Hey - OP again. Appreciate the discussion and have two more questions I've been researching, hoping you have insight to share.

In this article (https://top-law-schools.com/gSnO1x), seeing 34% of Yale grads received federal clerkships vs. 15% at UChi. Wondering how strong of a factor that difference should be for a person interested in a litigation career in public interest.

Would also like to know if anyone has insight on the differences between UChicago and Yale teaching styles. From conversations with students, I've been told UChi is primarily socratic method / black letter and Yale is a combo of socratic method and discussion-oriented classes?


Clerkships really shouldn't be that big a concern if your litigation focus is going to be on working for NGOs. If you include government positions in your definition of "public interest" (which I do), then you should factor in clerkships.

And teaching styles should literally never enter into this discussion. You're going to learn the same basic material no matter where you go; how you learn it is immaterial and largely dependent on individual professors.

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:43 pm

Having a clerkship can provide a small boost for certain litigation-based public interest organizations' entry-level positions, but the small boost is not worth an extra $200k in debt.

Excuse me if you've mentioned this already, but what type of public interest, if any, do you see yourself doing?

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:55 pm

Stimpy wrote:Hey - OP again. Appreciate the discussion and have two more questions I've been researching, hoping you have insight to share.

In this article (https://top-law-schools.com/gSnO1x), seeing 34% of Yale grads received federal clerkships vs. 15% at UChi. Wondering how strong of a factor that difference should be for a person interested in a litigation career in public interest.

Would also like to know if anyone has insight on the differences between UChicago and Yale teaching styles. From conversations with students, I've been told UChi is primarily socratic method / black letter and Yale is a combo of socratic method and discussion-oriented classes?


Can't speak to Yale but this really only applies to Uchi 1L year. Plenty of courses the rest of the way allow for small group discussions.

tinyvessels

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby tinyvessels » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:42 pm

This thread really delivered. Thanks for the entertainment folks!

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Nacho_Verde

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nacho_Verde » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:37 am

Brutus_the_Younger wrote:
HuntedUnicorn wrote:HYS lawyers


*YSH


Is it ever possible for an S/H grad to be seen as a peer by a Y grad?

Nebby

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:00 am

Nacho_Verde wrote:
Brutus_the_Younger wrote:
HuntedUnicorn wrote:HYS lawyers


*YSH


Is it ever possible for an S/H grad to be seen as a peer by a Y grad?

Depends on what the context is. In public interest hiring, HYSCCNB are generally seen as peers.

ETA: I think I misunderstood the question...

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WinterComing

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby WinterComing » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:50 am

Not to put a serious thought in this joke of a thread, but...

The argument from the HYS-bashers that Yalies end up with the same jobs as other T-14 grads is based, as best I can tell, on nine-month employment data. That is, I'd argue, not a great way to measure the impact that going to Yale might have over the course of your career. Now, I'm not saying that should persuade you one way or the other, because I really don't know, and I don't think there is any good data on, the implications of school choice over longer periods of time.

It's possible that once you've been at a law firm for a few years, the work you've done and connections you've made there will become much more important than where you went to law school in determining your exit options and chances at academia and such. It's also possible that having the credential of going to Yale (or of clerking) will help you to move in and out of the public and private sectors, give you certain opportunities through alumni connections you wouldn't have had otherwise, and so forth.

In talking to my Yale classmates about why they turned down full rides, it's often because they were betting on the latter being true (usually based on lots of anecdotal evidence).

Nebby

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:06 am

Your first point was correct: the longer you're out of school, the less relevant it becomes and the more relevant your experience/network becomes.

In talking to my Yale classmates about why they turned down full rides, it's often because they were betting on the latter being true (usually based on lots of anecdotal evidence).

I presume they arrived at this conclusion as a 0L while having conversations with current students who, while they were 0Ls, arrived at this conclusion while having conversations with current students who, while they were 0Ls, arrived at this conclusion while having conversations with current students who, while they were 0Ls, arrived at this conclusion while having conversations with current students, etc. etc. etc.

Kinda like what you, a 1L at Yale, are doing right now.

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:27 pm

WinterComing wrote:Not to put a serious thought in this joke of a thread, but...

The argument from the HYS-bashers that Yalies end up with the same jobs as other T-14 grads is based, as best I can tell, on nine-month employment data. That is, I'd argue, not a great way to measure the impact that going to Yale might have over the course of your career. Now, I'm not saying that should persuade you one way or the other, because I really don't know, and I don't think there is any good data on, the implications of school choice over longer periods of time.

It's possible that once you've been at a law firm for a few years, the work you've done and connections you've made there will become much more important than where you went to law school in determining your exit options and chances at academia and such. It's also possible that having the credential of going to Yale (or of clerking) will help you to move in and out of the public and private sectors, give you certain opportunities through alumni connections you wouldn't have had otherwise, and so forth.

In talking to my Yale classmates about why they turned down full rides, it's often because they were betting on the latter being true (usually based on lots of anecdotal evidence).


This...might come as a shock to you...but pretty much every T14 has plenty of alums all over the legal world. It would be dumb to argue that if you want to do BIG NBA you have to go to Chicago because Adam Silver's a Chicago Law alum and it would be dumb to argue that if you want to do BIG NHL you have to go to NYU because Gary Bettman's an NYU Law alum but that's essentially the essence of the long term argument for HYS>$$$ at a comparable T14. Basically for just about any job imaginable a T14 degree will be prestigious enough to get your foot in the door and then it's going to come down to your experience and your interviews. Sure, occasionally it will help to be a Yale alum. But the same holds true for any other school (and you can debate endlessly whether it helps more to have a bigger alumni network but also more people trying to tap into it or a relatively smaller one).

There's a reason virtually every practicing lawyer here would recommend taking the money. Once you get that first job your school stops being all that important.

The one exception is probably SCOTUS Justice but the odds of that happening are basically 0% anyway.

e. which isn't to suggest that, say, Yale doesn't have a better alumni network than other t14 schools. But it's almost certainly not $100,000 better-especially if you're debt financing and that money represents freedom to take career risks.

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call-me-bubbles

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby call-me-bubbles » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:49 pm

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Last edited by call-me-bubbles on Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anon.y.mousse.

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:54 pm

call-me-bubbles wrote:Hijacking for a hot minute, but are unicorn goals/jobs achievable from Chicago? I know the traditional line of thought is "unicorn = YSH" and vice-versa, but is the "cut-off," so to speak, that strict? Or is it possible that some of that unicorny goodness might trickle down to the plebs at Chicago?


Follow-up: what qualifies as a "unicorn" job that might only be achievable from HYS? does BigFed/Honors Program count or not rare/competitive enough?

Nebby

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Nebby » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:55 pm

Unicorn is a meaningless concept. What does it even mean?

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call-me-bubbles

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby call-me-bubbles » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 pm

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:05 pm

Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
call-me-bubbles wrote:Hijacking for a hot minute, but are unicorn goals/jobs achievable from Chicago? I know the traditional line of thought is "unicorn = YSH" and vice-versa, but is the "cut-off," so to speak, that strict? Or is it possible that some of that unicorny goodness might trickle down to the plebs at Chicago?


Follow-up: what qualifies as a "unicorn" job that might only be achievable from HYS? does BigFed/Honors Program count or not rare/competitive enough?


BigFed/Honors are absolutely achievable from CCN type schools. I don't think there's a single legal job that isn't.

Stimpy

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Re: When to Take the Money and Run?

Postby Stimpy » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:06 pm

Would white collar defense trial law be considered a "unicorn" job?



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