Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

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Veil of Ignorance

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Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:21 pm

I'm wondering whether you all think there's a chance that other schools in the T14 are going to follow Harvard and start allowing the GRE during the 2017-2018 admission cycle. If a school was planning on implementing that policy, by when do you think they would announce it? Do you think we are just going to have to wait until application open in August/September to find if the T14 is going full-GRE?
Last edited by Veil of Ignorance on Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

baseballfan660

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby baseballfan660 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:40 pm

according to Dave from Powerscore it will only be Harvard this year from the T-14 most likely. The schools have to do a study first to prove their is a correlation between GRE success and Law School success.

Veil of Ignorance

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:23 pm

baseballfan660 wrote:according to Dave from Powerscore it will only be Harvard this year from the T-14 most likely. The schools have to do a study first to prove their is a correlation between GRE success and Law School success.


Whew. Who would've thought that law school admissions was such a wild ride

grades??

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby grades?? » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:24 pm

Remember, its the t13. I heard speculation at my t10 today that the admin was going to meet about doing this asap.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:35 pm

grades?? wrote:Remember, its the t13. I heard speculation at my t10 today that the admin was going to meet about doing this asap.


"Doing this" meaning conduct a study or accept the GRE?

grades??

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby grades?? » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:38 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
grades?? wrote:Remember, its the t13. I heard speculation at my t10 today that the admin was going to meet about doing this asap.


"Doing this" meaning conduct a study or accept the GRE?


No idea, speculation. I imagine they are gonna meet to talk about the H move and see how viable it is to implement sooner rather than later aka next year.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby SlackOff » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:43 pm

It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Npret » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:47 pm

SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby ImGonnaTakeGRE » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:00 pm

Npret wrote:
SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.


Pure anecdotal but I never gave law school real consideration because I didn't want to invest time & energy to LSAT. But now I'm giving it more thought because a JD could be beneficial for my career. Same with a couple of my friends I talked with at HBS & HKS who are now thinking of pursuing dual degrees.

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lymenheimer

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby lymenheimer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:11 pm

Npret wrote:
SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.

Because the legal market definitely isn't over-saturated as it stands...

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Npret » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:18 pm

lymenheimer wrote:
Npret wrote:
SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.

Because the legal market definitely isn't over-saturated as it stands...

I don't understand how this makes more lawyers? I thought people were upset that their personal chances at becoming lawyers could be harmed?

You mean lower schools being able to admit on GRE? Don't quite follow.

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lymenheimer

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby lymenheimer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:26 pm

Npret wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:Because the legal market definitely isn't over-saturated as it stands...

I don't understand how this makes more lawyers? I thought people were upset that their personal chances at becoming lawyers could be harmed?

You mean lower schools being able to admit on GRE? Don't quite follow.

Yea. I'm slightly conflating. And making broad assumptions. But if other schools follow, kids will get bumped down: H-GRE kids will bump out some [previous] H-LSAT kids. Who will bump kids lower down. There are some schools that won't think twice about taking on more tuition payers = more law students -> grads -> lawyers.

Opening up admission to GRE kids could lead to more whimsical "oh I want to be a lawyer now", and we have plenty of those as it is even with the LSAT as a "barrier to entry".

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby SlackOff » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:27 pm

Npret wrote:It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.

Well...

lymenheimer wrote:Because the legal market definitely isn't over-saturated as it stands...

This.
The number of spots stays the same, the number of applicants goes up.

Plus, the rules have changed in a way that obviously disadvantges splitters. Sure the LSAT won't be eliminated for ranking purposes, but it's a lot easier and more appealing for a school to take a ton of 3.9/perfect GREs and a few (figuratively speaking, of course) 3.9/175s and have awesome numbers than it is to bother taking people with low GPAs or low LSATs.

Then again, if this doesn't catch on with other schools, I don't really care... But it'll almost certainly catch on, since it's a win/win for schools.

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Po$eidon

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Po$eidon » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:35 pm

As someone who teaches LSAT it's pretty much a disaster for the (very large I might add) LSAT market that's developed around the LSAT. Like, reeeeeaaalllly bad. It will destroy the purpose of LSAT study for virtually everyone that doesn't already have a high GPA. I don't see how LSAC is not currently running around with their hair on fire screaming.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby ImGonnaTakeGRE » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:39 pm

Po$eidon wrote:As someone who teaches LSAT it's pretty much a disaster for the (very large I might add) LSAT market that's developed around the LSAT. Like, reeeeeaaalllly bad. It will destroy the purpose of LSAT study for virtually everyone that doesn't already have a high GPA. I don't see how LSAC is not currently running around with their hair on fire screaming.


Why would it be really bad for LSAT? Business schools accept GRE but applicants predominantly still take GMAT.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby SlackOff » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:44 pm

Po$eidon wrote:As someone who teaches LSAT it's pretty much a disaster for the (very large I might add) LSAT market that's developed around the LSAT. Like, reeeeeaaalllly bad. It will destroy the purpose of LSAT study even applying to law school for virtually everyone that doesn't already have a high GPA. I don't see how LSAC is not currently running around with their hair on fire screaming.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Po$eidon » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:49 pm

SlackOff wrote:
Po$eidon wrote:As someone who teaches LSAT it's pretty much a disaster for the (very large I might add) LSAT market that's developed around the LSAT. Like, reeeeeaaalllly bad. It will destroy the purpose of LSAT study even applying to law school for virtually everyone that doesn't already have a high GPA. I don't see how LSAC is not currently running around with their hair on fire screaming.


That is totally true. Which will, further, destroy the LSAT market which largely is based around the idea that LSAT score can move mountains (won't move crap after this)

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Po$eidon » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:52 pm

^Also I'd argue that Harvard is probably the single worst institution to try pulling this for the LSAT market: lay prestige matters in marketing and Harvard is the king of that. Further, it is simultaneously very prestigious and has a very large class size. If a lower tier school attempted this other institutions would shrug but also if either Stanford or Yale pulled this most institutions would be like "but only they can get away with it". Harvard is like a dam breaking.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:59 pm

baseballfan660 wrote:according to Dave from Powerscore it will only be Harvard this year from the T-14 most likely. The schools have to do a study first to prove their is a correlation between GRE success and Law School success.


Could you provide the quote for that, though?

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby baseballfan660 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:11 am

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
baseballfan660 wrote:according to Dave from Powerscore it will only be Harvard this year from the T-14 most likely. The schools have to do a study first to prove their is a correlation between GRE success and Law School success.


Could you provide the quote for that, though?

it's on his twitter. MS9 also talked about it in his advice thread I believe. They seem to think it will be a few years before it is widely accepted at other schools.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Npret » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:14 am

ImGonnaTakeGRE wrote:
Npret wrote:
SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.


Pure anecdotal but I never gave law school real consideration because I didn't want to invest time & energy to LSAT. But now I'm giving it more thought because a JD could be beneficial for my career. Same with a couple of my friends I talked with at HBS & HKS who are now thinking of pursuing dual degrees.

What career is that? I mean the test isn't worth your time but 3 additional years of school is?

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Platopus » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:43 am

lymenheimer wrote:Opening up admission to GRE kids could lead to more whimsical "oh I want to be a lawyer now", and we have plenty of those as it is even with the LSAT as a "barrier to entry".


Yup, this about sums it up.

Po$eidon wrote:^Also I'd argue that Harvard is probably the single worst institution to try pulling this for the LSAT market: lay prestige matters in marketing and Harvard is the king of that. Further, it is simultaneously very prestigious and has a very large class size. If a lower tier school attempted this other institutions would shrug but also if either Stanford or Yale pulled this most institutions would be like "but only they can get away with it". Harvard is like a dam breaking.


I wonder what effect this will have on Harvard's yield. Potentially admittedly students with only a mild inclination toward law school and a legal career will affect yield, as I would assume a larger percentage of these students (as opposed to students who are dead-set on law school) will possibly attend PHd programs, etc. instead of HLS. It seems like HLS would be forced to admitted many more students to fill an equivalent class size. Handing out acceptances to people with only mild interest in attending seems like brand deflation to me.
Last edited by Platopus on Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

ImGonnaTakeGRE

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby ImGonnaTakeGRE » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:46 am

Npret wrote:
ImGonnaTakeGRE wrote:
Npret wrote:
SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.


Pure anecdotal but I never gave law school real consideration because I didn't want to invest time & energy to LSAT. But now I'm giving it more thought because a JD could be beneficial for my career. Same with a couple of my friends I talked with at HBS & HKS who are now thinking of pursuing dual degrees.

What career is that? I mean the test isn't worth your time but 3 additional years of school is?


Corporate M&A. Again, I know and have read the countless books & websites saying that there's no job that requires a dual JD/MBA. So I never gave law school much serious thought. But considering I'm heading to b-school in the fall and already have GRE scores, why not?

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby Npret » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:52 am

ImGonnaTakeGRE wrote:
Npret wrote:
ImGonnaTakeGRE wrote:
Npret wrote:
SlackOff wrote:It's a win/win for law schools, so they'll probably all follow in suit eventually...

As a splitter, I'm probably going to actually fucking cry if they do.


It's a win/win for some applicants too. Just not the ones that post here apparently. But don't give up hope yet. I doubt US News will drop the LSAT from the rankings. This is all speculation that splitters are hurt. The idea is to broaden the applicant pool not to cut out a large segment of it.

I'm surprised people don't seem happier about this decision.


Pure anecdotal but I never gave law school real consideration because I didn't want to invest time & energy to LSAT. But now I'm giving it more thought because a JD could be beneficial for my career. Same with a couple of my friends I talked with at HBS & HKS who are now thinking of pursuing dual degrees.

What career is that? I mean the test isn't worth your time but 3 additional years of school is?


Corporate M&A. Again, I know and have read the countless books & websites saying that there's no job that requires a dual JD/MBA. So I never gave law school much serious thought. But considering I'm heading to b-school in the fall and already have GRE scores, why not?

Because it's a waste of time and money? In fact it's a much bigger waste of time and money then studying and taking exam. I think possibly you need to understand a little bit more about law school.

But you do you.

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Re: Speculation about Schools Following Harvard?

Postby somedeadman » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:09 am

So in theory, if you have a GPA below t14 median, you need to get your ass in school pronto?



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