Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

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Npret

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Tue May 02, 2017 4:04 pm

AJordan wrote:Interesting. This method almost seems like the schools are going to be able to median at 99% which might make a 99% LSAT even more valuable than it already is? Hmmmm.


How so in a supposed sea of 99% GRE scores?

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby AJordan » Tue May 02, 2017 4:27 pm

I'm not convinced that many people applying to law school will have perfect GRE scores. We'll see.
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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Tue May 02, 2017 4:36 pm

AJordan wrote:I'm not convinced that many people applying to law school will have perfect GRE scores. We'll see.

I agree but I think once the 0Ls realize the GRE is fine they will be putting in the work to get close to perfect GRE scores.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Monday » Tue May 02, 2017 4:55 pm

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby grades?? » Tue May 02, 2017 5:54 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:US News kind of resolved this issue, right? It says on their new metric that they are going to convert GRE and LSAT scores into percentiles and weight every score (whether GRE or LSAT) equally in terms of rankings. But you can literally only miss 1 question on the GRE and stay at 99%, which correlates to a 173 LSAT (usually Harvard's median). So basically unless there are a bunch of perfect GRE students out there ready to apply to law school, this won't increase selectivity all that much.


I would guess there are. Plus the GRE is much easier to get that type of score than the lsat. I know a close friend who spent maybe 4 hours max studying for the gre and got a perfect score. He went to a decent undergrad and did alright, but not a 4.0 type of student. There will be many more 99% GRE scores than 99% LSAT scores.


Yup, there are way more people who take the GRE than there are people who take the LSAT so there will be a lot more 99% percentile GRE scores. I scored 99th percentile on my GMAT diagnostic and was in the low 160s on my LSAT diagnostic.

OK, but at least it's not going to be a "back door" for Harvard to accept legacies or Tiffany Trump or whatever, without hurting their numbers. I personally am glad US News took action on this.


It wont be a backdoor until US News actually does convert and include GRE numbers. From my understanding and I might be wrong, Harvard at least has next year to backdoor before this is all reported

Pretty sure it's already included :?


Can you point me to where this is stated? Because currently the GRE is not counted.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Tue May 02, 2017 6:03 pm

grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:US News kind of resolved this issue, right? It says on their new metric that they are going to convert GRE and LSAT scores into percentiles and weight every score (whether GRE or LSAT) equally in terms of rankings. But you can literally only miss 1 question on the GRE and stay at 99%, which correlates to a 173 LSAT (usually Harvard's median). So basically unless there are a bunch of perfect GRE students out there ready to apply to law school, this won't increase selectivity all that much.


I would guess there are. Plus the GRE is much easier to get that type of score than the lsat. I know a close friend who spent maybe 4 hours max studying for the gre and got a perfect score. He went to a decent undergrad and did alright, but not a 4.0 type of student. There will be many more 99% GRE scores than 99% LSAT scores.


Yup, there are way more people who take the GRE than there are people who take the LSAT so there will be a lot more 99% percentile GRE scores. I scored 99th percentile on my GMAT diagnostic and was in the low 160s on my LSAT diagnostic.

OK, but at least it's not going to be a "back door" for Harvard to accept legacies or Tiffany Trump or whatever, without hurting their numbers. I personally am glad US News took action on this.


It wont be a backdoor until US News actually does convert and include GRE numbers. From my understanding and I might be wrong, Harvard at least has next year to backdoor before this is all reported

Pretty sure it's already included :?


Can you point me to where this is stated? Because currently the GRE is not counted.


https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... ethodology
In the USNews methodology it says
• Median LSAT and GRE scores (0.125): These are the combined median scores on the Law School Admission Test of all 2016 full-time and part-time entrants to the J.D. program. For the first time, U.S. News used median GRE scores in combination with LSAT scores for this indicator if they were reported for a law school's 2016 entering class. The University of Arizona was the only school that reported both LSAT and GRE scores to U.S. News for its 2016 entering class.


I haven't seen how they convert GRE scores to percentiles that was mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby grades?? » Tue May 02, 2017 6:07 pm

grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Veil of Ignorance wrote:I would guess there are. Plus the GRE is much easier to get that type of score than the lsat. I know a close friend who spent maybe 4 hours max studying for the gre and got a perfect score. He went to a decent undergrad and did alright, but not a 4.0 type of student. There will be many more 99% GRE scores than 99% LSAT scores.


Yup, there are way more people who take the GRE than there are people who take the LSAT so there will be a lot more 99% percentile GRE scores. I scored 99th percentile on my GMAT diagnostic and was in the low 160s on my LSAT diagnostic.

OK, but at least it's not going to be a "back door" for Harvard to accept legacies or Tiffany Trump or whatever, without hurting their numbers. I personally am glad US News took action on this.


It wont be a backdoor until US News actually does convert and include GRE numbers. From my understanding and I might be wrong, Harvard at least has next year to backdoor before this is all reported

Pretty sure it's already included :?


Can you point me to where this is stated? Because currently the GRE is not counted.


https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... ethodology
In the USNews methodology it says
• Median LSAT and GRE scores (0.125): These are the combined median scores on the Law School Admission Test of all 2016 full-time and part-time entrants to the J.D. program. For the first time, U.S. News used median GRE scores in combination with LSAT scores for this indicator if they were reported for a law school's 2016 entering class. The University of Arizona was the only school that reported both LSAT and GRE scores to U.S. News for its 2016 entering class.


I haven't seen how they convert GRE scores to percentiles that was mentioned elsewhere in the thread.


Thanks. But that doesn't say anything about schools having to release their GRE data (like median scores for example) publicly right? So it could be that Harvard backdoors a bunch of lower tier GRE scores. Also, that equation does not tell us how much weight they are giving the GRE scores in comparison to the lsat. It might be so little weight it makes practically no difference.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Tue May 02, 2017 6:14 pm

I'm sure there is more information out there. I think schools just haven't collected GRE information before or used GRE alone for admission purposes. (Maybe Arizona did and that's why they reported them.)

I don't understand why you think Harvard, who is spearheading this move to the GRE, won't report the numbers accurately? (Honestly this baffles me.)I also don't understand why you think that the GRE won't be weighted equally with the LSAT when it's used for admission?

I'm sure there is more info about this calculation somewhere but this is what I found.
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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Monday » Tue May 02, 2017 6:16 pm

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby grades?? » Tue May 02, 2017 6:18 pm

Npret wrote:I'm sure there is more information out there. I think schools just haven't collected GRE information before or used GRE alone for admission purposes. (Maybe Arizona did and that's why they reported them.)

I don't understand why you think Harvard, who is spearheading this move to the GRE, won't report the numbers accurately? (Honestly this baffles me.)I also don't understand why you think that the GRE won't be weighted equally with the LSAT when it's used for admission?

I'm sure there is more info about this calculation somewhere but this is what I found.


I never said Harvard wont report the numbers accurately, but more so if they have to at all.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Tue May 02, 2017 6:19 pm

Monday wrote:
grades?? wrote:Thanks. But that doesn't say anything about schools having to release their GRE data (like median scores for example) publicly right? So it could be that Harvard backdoors a bunch of lower tier GRE scores. Also, that equation does not tell us how much weight they are giving the GRE scores in comparison to the lsat. It might be so little weight it makes practically no difference.

http://www.abajournal.com/files/proposedrevisiontostandard503.pdf

Thanks!
I knew that was somewhere although I assumed Harvard would report the numbers accurately anyway.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Monday » Tue May 02, 2017 6:33 pm

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby grades?? » Tue May 02, 2017 6:58 pm

Monday wrote:
Npret wrote:
Monday wrote:
grades?? wrote:Thanks. But that doesn't say anything about schools having to release their GRE data (like median scores for example) publicly right? So it could be that Harvard backdoors a bunch of lower tier GRE scores. Also, that equation does not tell us how much weight they are giving the GRE scores in comparison to the lsat. It might be so little weight it makes practically no difference.

http://www.abajournal.com/files/proposedrevisiontostandard503.pdf

Thanks!
I knew that was somewhere although I assumed Harvard would report the numbers accurately anyway.

Oh, that proposed revision requires that schools report which test is used only, not actual numbers. But 509 requires that admissions data be reported, so there's that.


Yeah thats the point I'm trying to figure out. So we don't actually know yet if GRE scores will actually be publicly reported yet

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Monday » Tue May 02, 2017 7:13 pm

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby grades?? » Tue May 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Monday wrote:
grades?? wrote:Yeah thats the point I'm trying to figure out. So we don't actually know yet if GRE scores will actually be publicly reported yet

Right. Current ABA standards already allow the use of GREs and other LSAT alternatives for a small minority of students. Yet 509s classify these data as "# not incl." and so are "not reported" in your sense. But the ABA meetings and revisions (which include removal of the language that previously allowed this for the small minority of students) will likely end with a system that prevents unreporting. Perhaps it'll be similar to transfers data; "for schools matriculating more than x students without reportable LSAT scores," [list LSAC approved alternative and medians, etc.].

And as I said before, it'll be "either LSAT or GRE, but not both" setup.


Exactly. So until the GRE is reported for everyone, then it can be abused by schools for example to admit a Tiffany Trump with whatever her GRE is and not report it

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby VeiledProtectorate » Tue May 02, 2017 7:43 pm

I'm of the mind that this helps splitters, but perhaps that's my splitter bias shining through. HLS can now accept more people who have 3.9-4.0+ GPAs who are also looking at MBA, MPP, and PhD programs. Perhaps someone who otherwise would have gone to Wharton, SBS, or Woodrow Wilson can't help but say yes to HBS or HKS when it's paired with a HLS degree that they don't have to take an extra test for (not that people were saying no to those two with any frequency before, but HLS could be the tipping point for top students). This, in turn, allows them to take more 3.5-3.6/175+ applicants without hurting their GPA medians.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Tue May 02, 2017 8:02 pm

grades?? wrote:
Monday wrote:
grades?? wrote:Yeah thats the point I'm trying to figure out. So we don't actually know yet if GRE scores will actually be publicly reported yet

Right. Current ABA standards already allow the use of GREs and other LSAT alternatives for a small minority of students. Yet 509s classify these data as "# not incl." and so are "not reported" in your sense. But the ABA meetings and revisions (which include removal of the language that previously allowed this for the small minority of students) will likely end with a system that prevents unreporting. Perhaps it'll be similar to transfers data; "for schools matriculating more than x students without reportable LSAT scores," [list LSAC approved alternative and medians, etc.].

And as I said before, it'll be "either LSAT or GRE, but not both" setup.


Exactly. So until the GRE is reported for everyone, then it can be abused by schools for example to admit a Tiffany Trump with whatever her GRE is and not report it

In terms of their publicly reported numbers and how those reflect of the school, sure, Harvard could admit a bunch of low GRE scores and not publish them. But that would still hurt the school in terms of the .125 weighted score that LSAT/GRE counts for on the US News ranking.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Tue May 02, 2017 8:23 pm

I do not understand the concern with Harvard not reporting numbers in their pilot program for using the GRE. Did people think Harvard created this program so they could admit students they didn't have to report numbers on?

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Monday » Tue May 02, 2017 8:33 pm

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Wed May 03, 2017 8:53 am

Monday wrote:ABA will likely require schools using alternatives (that LSAC must first approve) to report if the number of students is above a certain threshold.

I also don't understand this fear of HLS not reporting. They don't need to "backdoor" admits because of their class size.

I think the "backdoor" fear comes from the fact that Harvard, as well as all prestigious colleges, backdoor a hell of a lot of students into their undergraduate classes. The US News ranking, to its credit, prevents H from doing this at their law school.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Pyrex » Wed May 03, 2017 9:23 am

Until used by other top schools, it seems that GRE will allow Harvard mainly to try to poach undecided talent from other fields. Because what person, dead set on law, applied only to Harvard and ASU?

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Wed May 03, 2017 10:05 am

Pyrex wrote:Until used by other top schools, it seems that GRE will allow Harvard mainly to try to poach undecided talent from other fields. Because what person, dead set on law, applied only to Harvard and ASU?

Won't that be implemented by other schools quickly?

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Wed May 03, 2017 10:10 am

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
Monday wrote:ABA will likely require schools using alternatives (that LSAC must first approve) to report if the number of students is above a certain threshold.

I also don't understand this fear of HLS not reporting. They don't need to "backdoor" admits because of their class size.

I think the "backdoor" fear comes from the fact that Harvard, as well as all prestigious colleges, backdoor a hell of a lot of students into their undergraduate classes. The US News ranking, to its credit, prevents H from doing this at their law school.

I know this is arguing against myself here but does Harvard have to report stats on the undergrads that are accepted into the law school on the condition of two years of work experience or whatever that is?

My argument for Harvard reporting the median for GRE is that they want their pilot program to be successful so they shouldn't hide data. The number of GRE only admits is going to be small and shouldn't have much of an impact on rankings.

I'm sure Harvard has been wanting to admit students that they "can't" within the current system and now perhaps they will be able to do so.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby Npret » Wed May 03, 2017 2:16 pm

The program I referred to above is being expanded into all universities.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=277359

And I was incorrect about those admits not being reported.

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Re: Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT

Postby TheKingLives » Wed May 24, 2017 1:09 am

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