2018 USNWR Rankings

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Dcc617

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Re: Official 2018 Best Law Schools ranking from USNWR released

Postby Dcc617 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:20 pm

CR7 wrote:
doritosMotorola wrote:Serious question, does the change in ranking make Harvard vs. Chicago a harder decision?


No, Harvard reputation is still way ahead of chicago, regardless of ranking.


Remember that nothing about either school has actually changed. US News has to have some minor fluctuations every year to sell whatever it is they sell now. Rankings are meaningless except as very general proxies for prestige (which itself is a very general proxy for placement power). You should make your decisions based on job prospects for what you specifically want to do and cost of attendance.

Both are great schools and your decision should have nothing to do with this year's US News rankings.

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Re: Official 2018 Best Law Schools ranking from USNWR released

Postby Moneytrees » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:25 pm

Dcc617 wrote:
CR7 wrote:
doritosMotorola wrote:Serious question, does the change in ranking make Harvard vs. Chicago a harder decision?


No, Harvard reputation is still way ahead of chicago, regardless of ranking.


Remember that nothing about either school has actually changed. US News has to have some minor fluctuations every year to sell whatever it is they sell now. Rankings are meaningless except as very general proxies for prestige (which itself is a very general proxy for placement power). You should make your decisions based on job prospects for what you specifically want to do and cost of attendance.

Both are great schools and your decision should have nothing to do with this year's US News rankings.


Hopefully Harvard dropping to third will entice more people to choose a huge scholarship from Chicago instead of sticker (or minimal scholarship) from H. Not likely though.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:28 pm

Harvard is in free fall. They've dropped from 2nd to 3rd, while Chicago (which, remember, was ranked 6th not that long ago) has charged up to solo 4th. By 2019 or 2020, you've got to figure that Chicago will be #3 and Harvard will be #4. I feel sorry for the folks who decided to attend HLS in Fall 2016. Talk about buying high and selling low.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:41 pm

rpupkin wrote:Harvard is in free fall. They've dropped from 2nd to 3rd, while Chicago (which, remember, was ranked 6th not that long ago) has charged up to solo 4th. By 2019 or 2020, you've got to figure that Chicago will be #3 and Harvard will be #4. I feel sorry for the folks who decided to attend HLS in Fall 2016. Talk about buying high and selling low.

lol

Harvard could turn 3L into a 9-month long mandatory work-study program where students need to sell lemonade on street corners, and the line of people waiting to get in would still put an iPhone release to shame. USNWR will complete their incredible sinking ship process all the way into non-existence long before there will be any reason for the Harvard ad coms to break a sweat.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Rigo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:42 pm

haus wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Harvard is in free fall. They've dropped from 2nd to 3rd, while Chicago (which, remember, was ranked 6th not that long ago) has charged up to solo 4th. By 2019 or 2020, you've got to figure that Chicago will be #3 and Harvard will be #4. I feel sorry for the folks who decided to attend HLS in Fall 2016. Talk about buying high and selling low.

lol
Harvard could turn 3L into a 9-month long mandatory work-study program where students need to sell lemonade on street corners, and the line of people waiting to get in would still put an iPhone release to shame. USNWR will complete their incredible sinking ship process all the way into non-existence long before there will be any reason for the Harvard ad coms to break a sweat.

(Desperately seeking GREs)

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Re: Official 2018 Best Law Schools ranking from USNWR released

Postby Dcc617 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:44 pm

Moneytrees wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
CR7 wrote:
doritosMotorola wrote:Serious question, does the change in ranking make Harvard vs. Chicago a harder decision?


No, Harvard reputation is still way ahead of chicago, regardless of ranking.


Remember that nothing about either school has actually changed. US News has to have some minor fluctuations every year to sell whatever it is they sell now. Rankings are meaningless except as very general proxies for prestige (which itself is a very general proxy for placement power). You should make your decisions based on job prospects for what you specifically want to do and cost of attendance.

Both are great schools and your decision should have nothing to do with this year's US News rankings.


Hopefully Harvard dropping to third will entice more people to choose a huge scholarship from Chicago instead of sticker (or minimal scholarship) from H. Not likely though.


Maybe. People's life choices baffle me sometimes.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:47 pm

Rigo wrote:
haus wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Harvard is in free fall. They've dropped from 2nd to 3rd, while Chicago (which, remember, was ranked 6th not that long ago) has charged up to solo 4th. By 2019 or 2020, you've got to figure that Chicago will be #3 and Harvard will be #4. I feel sorry for the folks who decided to attend HLS in Fall 2016. Talk about buying high and selling low.

lol
Harvard could turn 3L into a 9-month long mandatory work-study program where students need to sell lemonade on street corners, and the line of people waiting to get in would still put an iPhone release to shame. USNWR will complete their incredible sinking ship process all the way into non-existence long before there will be any reason for the Harvard ad coms to break a sweat.

(Desperately seeking GREs)

Exactly. Harvard apologists like Haus want to act like everything is smooth sailing for the big H....yep, HLS can just skate by forever on reputation alone. Meanwhile, the LSAT/GRE policy shift shows that HLS is in full-on panic mode. LOL @ anyone who boards that sinking ship.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:58 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Rigo wrote:
haus wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Harvard is in free fall. They've dropped from 2nd to 3rd, while Chicago (which, remember, was ranked 6th not that long ago) has charged up to solo 4th. By 2019 or 2020, you've got to figure that Chicago will be #3 and Harvard will be #4. I feel sorry for the folks who decided to attend HLS in Fall 2016. Talk about buying high and selling low.

lol
Harvard could turn 3L into a 9-month long mandatory work-study program where students need to sell lemonade on street corners, and the line of people waiting to get in would still put an iPhone release to shame. USNWR will complete their incredible sinking ship process all the way into non-existence long before there will be any reason for the Harvard ad coms to break a sweat.

(Desperately seeking GREs)

Exactly. Harvard apologists like Haus want to act like everything is smooth sailing for the big H....yep, HLS can just skate by forever on reputation alone. Meanwhile, the LSAT/GRE policy shift shows that HLS is in full-on panic mode. LOL @ anyone who boards that sinking ship.

I thought you already had your big troll stand for the week.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:01 pm

haus wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Exactly. Harvard apologists like Haus want to act like everything is smooth sailing for the big H....yep, HLS can just skate by forever on reputation alone. Meanwhile, the LSAT/GRE policy shift shows that HLS is in full-on panic mode. LOL @ anyone who boards that sinking ship.

I thought you already had your big troll stand for the week.

So long as this thread remains active, I will fight for the principles of truth, prestige, and honor.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Julius » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:37 pm

Let's not forget that Harvard dropped two points off #2, not one:

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2017 ... -presented

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby lolRCscrewyou » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:55 pm

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
curry1 wrote:
lolRCscrewyou wrote:
cub1014 wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote: Regardless, Berkeley will always be Berkeley. Other schools are really good, too, but telling someone you went to Penn, UVA, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, or Duke doesn't have the same ring to it or reaction from everyday people.


Duke doesn't have the same reaction as Berkeley? You must live on the West Coast then because the reaction seems pretty equivalent. In fact I'd argue Duke has more pull outside the West Coast but that's been my experience.


Agreed, but I'd even say people on the West Coast have a better reaction to Duke than Berk. Everyone and their mother went to Berk, it's not really an uncommon thing. I think the only California school that still pulls a *gasp* reaction 10/10 times is Stanford. Meanwhile, despite law school rankings being all over the place, these schools never fail to illicit good reactions to CA natives: Vanderbilt, Harvard, Yale, Duke, and Georgetown.


odd pro-vanderbilt trolling.


Haha it was. I was almost taking it seriously until I read Vandy, and then thought, "Damn it! Trolled."

And there's no real point in saying Duke is better known for academics and just generally than Berkeley. Just look at INTERNATIONAL rankings. Top schools from the U.S. tend to be Harvard, MIT, Berkeley, and Stanford. Duke is nowhere. That's because Duke isn't on the same level as the former four schools or schools like them. Basketball doesn't beat the free speech/rights movement, having almost all the graduate programs ranked in the top 10 or 5 spots, international recognition, being almost regularly in media, and the leader in progressivism, social movements, and academics. I'm not saying Duke is a bad school. It's really good and I have friends who went there. But if I didn't go to University of Chicago, and I had the choice between UVA, Mich, Duke, or Berkeley, I'd go to Berkeley hands down. The weather and location alone wins.

Here are international rankings based on global and regional reputation. Berkeley is behind Stanford by .1 and is 4th. I'll let you click through the rest of the pages to find Duke and Vandy. https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... s/rankings


And yet, at the end of they day, Duke's law school numbers numbers are still better than Berkeley's so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby lolRCscrewyou » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:58 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
curry1 wrote:
lolRCscrewyou wrote:
cub1014 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote: Regardless, Berkeley will always be Berkeley. Other schools are really good, too, but telling someone you went to Penn, UVA, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, or Duke doesn't have the same ring to it or reaction from everyday people.


Agreed, but I'd even say people on the West Coast have a better reaction to Duke than Berk. Everyone and their mother went to Berk, it's not really an uncommon thing. I think the only California school that still pulls a *gasp* reaction 10/10 times is Stanford. Meanwhile, despite law school rankings being all over the place, these schools never fail to illicit good reactions to CA natives: Vanderbilt, Harvard, Yale, Duke, and Georgetown.


odd pro-vanderbilt trolling.


Haha it was. I was almost taking it seriously until I read Vandy, and then thought, "Damn it! Trolled."

And there's no real point in saying Duke is better known for academics and just generally than Berkeley. Just look at INTERNATIONAL rankings. Top schools from the U.S. tend to be Harvard, MIT, Berkeley, and Stanford. Duke is nowhere. That's because Duke isn't on the same level as the former four schools or schools like them. Basketball doesn't beat the free rights movement, having almost all the graduate programs ranked in the top 10 or 5 spots, international recognition, being almost regularly in media, and the leader in progressivism, social movements, and academics. I'm not saying Duke is a bad school. It's really good and I have friends who went there. But if I didn't go to University of Chicago, and I had the choice between UVA, Mich, Duke, or Berkeley, I'd go to Berkeley hands down. The weather and location alone wins.

Duke easily has more lay prestige than Berkeley or any other state school. International rankings are dogshit and elevate dogshit state schools (for clarification, not counting Berkeley as a dogshit state school) way above where they belong.


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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:07 pm

The entire international rankings argument has always been a stupid one and by no means indicates "lay prestige".

Countries that give more than a rats ass about US school prestige are:

1) the US

2) BRICS who don't have established schools of their own but want their kids to learn the required knowledge of developed nations.

China massively skews that input and (due largely to geography) the west coast is the number 1 stop for Chinese students.

More to the point though, I don't understand why we would consider the beliefs of the international community when talking about even lay prestige. A lay person should have general but not specialized knowledge of something (IE the US higher education system). Asking someone on the other side of the globe what they think of us schools loses all semblance of a analyzed opinion

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:09 pm

Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:The entire international rankings argument has always been a stupid one and by no means indicates "lay prestige".

Countries that give more than a rats ass about US school prestige are:

1) the US

2) BRICS who don't have established schools of their own but want their kids to learn the required knowledge of developed nations.

China massively skews that input and (due largely to geography) the west coast is the number 1 stop for Chinese students.

More to the point though, I don't understand why we would consider the beliefs of the international community when talking about even lay prestige. A lay person should have general but not specialized knowledge of something (IE the US higher education system). Asking someone on the other side of the globe what they think of us schools loses all semblance of a analyzed opinion

Make lay prestige great again!

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:11 pm

But I agree. And even though Berkeley might be well known in East Asian countries, I never got the impression it was viewed as highly as Duke/middle Ivy.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby lolRCscrewyou » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:15 pm

candidlatke wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:I went to U of Chicago. When I applied to law schools, I was working-class, doing a blue collar job finishing college. All my family and friends were same, everyday people with no particular connection to "engineering," "law," "medicine," etc. The perception at the time on which schools were best for me to apply, irrespective of actual US news rankings (we weren't really aware of at the beginning) and after we realized I could get into the "good" schools instead of applying "local," was Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. MIT and Princeton were also thrown in but obviously didn't apply. When I applied and told people where I was applying, they would almost always single out Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. A few also were impressed by U of Chicago. I know this is hugely anecdotal, but I come from an "everyday" background if you will. And since going through law school, and meeting so many overly well off people, I can't stand when someone from a well off background who grew up through private schools, and knew everything law because they grew up expected and prepared to be some kind of professional, tries to, with a sense of "the world rotates around me," impute their very researched and unordinary understanding of the legal profession and schools to everyday people, like that guy above who, like those snobs we all met at one point, for some reason still cares about private versus public school distinction.

I'm not saying other schools aren't great. They are. I'm just saying if you asked everyday people to name the top engineering school, law school, medical school, or the like, people will go with their perception on the university as a whole because they don't have the same particular understanding of the specific professions we do now, especially law. So whichever one you ask (i.e., about law, medicine, etc.), you'll get answers like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, etc. You won't get UVA, Michigan, NYU, Duke, Vandy, or the like because generally they don't have that specific national lay person reputation for academics. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools. They are. And that doesn't mean they also aren't well known for something. They are; I'm sure if I asked people to name the best basketball programs, Duke would pop up immediately. But when it comes to academics, for a long time it's been Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley, MIT, and a few others that dominate across the board in academics and the media. It has never been schools that are good at one particular thing, especially when that thing is non-academic, like Duke with basketball and as we here know law but no other high academic ranking in any other departments.

This of course varies from one part of the country to another, but generally on a national level, and international level, it holds true.


This is some 180 trolling. Not everyone is from a wealthy, prep school background on here, and I'm pretty sure I'd win if we were to compare who was more "blue collar." BTW, that's such a weird criticism to level at people who disagree with you. What sort of prick claims to speak "for the people," and claim that their own life experiences holds true across America, when their only experience is in Chicago.

In my area, no one blinked at Berkeley. There, it had less lay prestige than literally every other school you mentioned with the exception of NYU. On the east coast (which is the only coast that matters), Duke will be considered better by virtually everyone. I'd be surprised if you could find a single layperson mention Berkeley as the best in anything (Harvard will probably win no matter what field we're talking). Hell, Stanford wouldn't be in the same conversation as HYP and MIT throughout most of the east coast, and would be seen as Duke's peer. Stop living in a fantasy world. This is as stupid of an argument as the guy citing some random international rankings. Outside of HYP, schools are heavily regional, and that will determine what the layperson thinks is the best. Stop speaking for the country.


You would've saved yourself a lot of time if you actually read my post. I didn't just live in chicago. I've lived throughout the midwest mostly and I can tell you based on experience, no one knows Duke for academics. In fact, many local colleges are seen as kings typically, with only a few national colleges managing to pierce through and also be relevant. Of course, this includes mostly Harvard, and sometimes Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Berkeley. Duke is nowhere in the midwest. Shit. I have to google where it is exactly in NC, so I can only imagine what someone outside the legal profession (where duke has sway in academics) would have to do to know it even exists in academics. It's true on the west ckast where i lived, and it's also true on the east coast in Massachusetts where I lived.

Now, I'm not saying people don't know it. They do, for basketball. But that's not what we're talking about here. Please don't respond to my post. I don't want to engage with someone who either can't read or purposefully trolls through strawman arguments.



it might be different on the midwest, but on the westcoast, growing up in a family with <30k yearly income, duke was markedly better.
there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special, as someone growing up in cali, since the public school system meant there would always be like two or more kids going there from each school. it was always more of the "good work, you went to berkeley" but the top privates were always thought to be more prestigious/special. for what it's worth, no one knew about the LAC's or emory or etc., outside of the preppier kids/ones who had college educated parents and were aware of schools beyond the Ivy's & in-state schools, but duke was well known for some reason, even outside of the basketball scene. entering more educated/upper class parts like LA & SF after ug, the corresponding perspective on berkeley was the same - a good school but lacking in that selectivity that makes the private schools like duke & the ivy's seem "special"

and i truly, truly, find it hard to believe that Harvard/yale/princeton/MIT were the only peer schools in lay prestige with berkeley where you grew up. the ivy league is the ivy league for a reason, and as much as it's annoying/as much as it shouldn't be thought to be a holy land, i find it hard to believe you when you say that berkeley was more well known/was better regarded than the ivys where you grew up. not saying it's impossible, just very hard to believe


THANK YOU. I grew up in LA and everyone and their mother (mistakenly) thought Duke was an Ivy League school. I don't know about mid-western states, but the west, northeast, and south definitely know them for more than just basketball.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby NCGuy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:18 pm

Also, re: regional prestige.

No one in the South gives a hoot about Berkeley. Duke is more likely to get eyebrow raises here.
Last edited by NCGuy on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:20 pm

Mod Request: Can we create a little cage for the pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolls to go play in? You know, it would be like the thread you created for DaRascal (miss that guy) a couple of years back.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:23 pm

rpupkin wrote:Mod Request: Can we create a little cage for the pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolls to go play in? You know, it would be like the thread you created for DaRascal (miss that guy) a couple of years back.

You, sir, are no true friend of prestige.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby lolRCscrewyou » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:25 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Mod Request: Can we create a little cage for the pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolls to go play in? You know, it would be like the thread you created for DaRascal (miss that guy) a couple of years back.

You, sir, are no true friend of prestige.


We have appellate briefs to write, let us enjoy our internet drama while we can :lol:

But in other news, good for Northwestern for moving up and UCLA too after their fall last year!

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:26 pm

rpupkin wrote:Mod Request: Can we create a little cage for the pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolls to go play in? You know, it would be like the thread you created for DaRascal (miss that guy) a couple of years back.


Haven't I seen you take Duke's side (or at least anti-berkeley's side) in this weird Duke v Berkeley fight?

Also I thought the first shot came from a Berkeley apologist claiming Berk>Duke. It's not like a bunch of dukies just decided they were gonna start flinging shit at a school after they fell to two below them

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:35 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:The entire international rankings argument has always been a stupid one and by no means indicates "lay prestige".

Countries that give more than a rats ass about US school prestige are:

1) the US

2) BRICS who don't have established schools of their own but want their kids to learn the required knowledge of developed nations.

China massively skews that input and (due largely to geography) the west coast is the number 1 stop for Chinese students.

More to the point though, I don't understand why we would consider the beliefs of the international community when talking about even lay prestige. A lay person should have general but not specialized knowledge of something (IE the US higher education system). Asking someone on the other side of the globe what they think of us schools loses all semblance of a analyzed opinion

Make lay prestige great again!


It's always " 'GINA"!!!

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Mr_Chukes » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:00 pm

rpupkin wrote:Mod Request: Can we create a little cage for the pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolls to go play in? You know, it would be like the thread you created for DaRascal (miss that guy) a couple of years back.

I thought Duke was only known for Belle Knox :shock:

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:05 pm

Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Mod Request: Can we create a little cage for the pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolls to go play in? You know, it would be like the thread you created for DaRascal (miss that guy) a couple of years back.


Haven't I seen you take Duke's side (or at least anti-berkeley's side) in this weird Duke v Berkeley fight?

Oh, I would never pass up a chance to lol @ boalttt.

Anti-Berkeley trolling I can tolerate. But Pro-Duke-lay-prestige trolling? It's just a step too far.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:03 am

If US News means anything, it means this:

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2017 ... -presented

the more granular listing is slightly less arbitrary (but still arbitrary) than the ranking that assign a single number to each school. This shows, for example, that gaps between the T13 and the rest of the T20 is wide (far wider than the gap between T14-20); whereas variance between Michigan, Virginia, Duke, and Northwestern, for example, is completely meaningless. And the argument that the reputational "gap" in US News between Chicago or Columbia and Harvard is wide is clearly disproven by the fact that the gap between Chicago or Columbia and NYU, and the gap between Harvard and Yale, are both larger.

And then of course compare this to the massive clump of schools that fall between 30-50.

And this is all assuming the metrics used to compute these numbers have any meaning at all. Which they basically don't.



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