2018 USNWR Rankings

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LurkerTurnedMember

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:31 am

rpupkin wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown


Good try. But there's no way they would release fake rankings knowing at least some applicants would likely rely on the leaks to decide which apps to pull or continue with..

USNWR didn't "release" fake rankings. C'mon—use some common sense.


Sorry. I thought the claim was that they created "fake" rankings in anticipation that they will be leaked. I shortcutted the description of this to "releasing."
Last edited by LurkerTurnedMember on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

candidlatke

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby candidlatke » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:41 am

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:I went to U of Chicago. When I applied to law schools, I was working-class, doing a blue collar job finishing college. All my family and friends were same, everyday people with no particular connection to "engineering," "law," "medicine," etc. The perception at the time on which schools were best for me to apply, irrespective of actual US news rankings (we weren't really aware of at the beginning) and after we realized I could get into the "good" schools instead of applying "local," was Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. MIT and Princeton were also thrown in but obviously didn't apply. When I applied and told people where I was applying, they would almost always single out Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. A few also were impressed by U of Chicago. I know this is hugely anecdotal, but I come from an "everyday" background if you will. And since going through law school, and meeting so many overly well off people, I can't stand when someone from a well off background who grew up through private schools, and knew everything law because they grew up expected and prepared to be some kind of professional, tries to, with a sense of "the world rotates around me," impute their very researched and unordinary understanding of the legal profession and schools to everyday people, like that guy above who, like those snobs we all met at one point, for some reason still cares about private versus public school distinction.

I'm not saying other schools aren't great. They are. I'm just saying if you asked everyday people to name the top engineering school, law school, medical school, or the like, people will go with their perception on the university as a whole because they don't have the same particular understanding of the specific professions we do now, especially law. So whichever one you ask (i.e., about law, medicine, etc.), you'll get answers like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, etc. You won't get UVA, Michigan, NYU, Duke, Vandy, or the like because generally they don't have that specific national lay person reputation for academics. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools. They are. And that doesn't mean they also aren't well known for something. They are; I'm sure if I asked people to name the best basketball programs, Duke would pop up immediately. But when it comes to academics, for a long time it's been Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley, MIT, and a few others that dominate across the board in academics and the media. It has never been schools that are good at one particular thing, especially when that thing is non-academic, like Duke with basketball and as we here know law but no other high academic ranking in any other departments.

This of course varies from one part of the country to another, but generally on a national level, and international level, it holds true.


This is some 180 trolling. Not everyone is from a wealthy, prep school background on here, and I'm pretty sure I'd win if we were to compare who was more "blue collar." BTW, that's such a weird criticism to level at people who disagree with you. What sort of prick claims to speak "for the people," and claim that their own life experiences holds true across America, when their only experience is in Chicago.

In my area, no one blinked at Berkeley. There, it had less lay prestige than literally every other school you mentioned with the exception of NYU. On the east coast (which is the only coast that matters), Duke will be considered better by virtually everyone. I'd be surprised if you could find a single layperson mention Berkeley as the best in anything (Harvard will probably win no matter what field we're talking). Hell, Stanford wouldn't be in the same conversation as HYP and MIT throughout most of the east coast, and would be seen as Duke's peer. Stop living in a fantasy world. This is as stupid of an argument as the guy citing some random international rankings. Outside of HYP, schools are heavily regional, and that will determine what the layperson thinks is the best. Stop speaking for the country.


You would've saved yourself a lot of time if you actually read my post. I didn't just live in chicago. I've lived throughout the midwest mostly and I can tell you based on experience, no one knows Duke for academics. In fact, many local colleges are seen as kings typically, with only a few national colleges managing to pierce through and also be relevant. Of course, this includes mostly Harvard, and sometimes Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Berkeley. Duke is nowhere in the midwest. Shit. I have to google where it is exactly in NC, so I can only imagine what someone outside the legal profession (where duke has sway in academics) would have to do to know it even exists in academics. It's true on the west ckast where i lived, and it's also true on the east coast in Massachusetts where I lived.

Now, I'm not saying people don't know it. They do, for basketball. But that's not what we're talking about here. Please don't respond to my post. I don't want to engage with someone who either can't read or purposefully trolls through strawman arguments.



it might be different on the midwest, but on the westcoast, growing up in a family with <30k yearly income, duke was markedly better.
there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special, as someone growing up in cali, since the public school system meant there would always be like two or more kids going there from each school. it was always more of the "good work, you went to berkeley" but the top privates were always thought to be more prestigious/special. for what it's worth, no one knew about the LAC's or emory or etc., outside of the preppier kids/ones who had college educated parents and were aware of schools beyond the Ivy's & in-state schools, but duke was well known for some reason, even outside of the basketball scene. entering more educated/upper class parts like LA & SF after ug, the corresponding perspective on berkeley was the same - a good school but lacking in that selectivity that makes the private schools like duke & the ivy's seem "special"

and i truly, truly, find it hard to believe that Harvard/yale/princeton/MIT were the only peer schools in lay prestige with berkeley where you grew up. the ivy league is the ivy league for a reason, and as much as it's annoying/as much as it shouldn't be thought to be a holy land, i find it hard to believe you when you say that berkeley was more well known/was better regarded than the ivys where you grew up. not saying it's impossible, just very hard to believe
Last edited by candidlatke on Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

LurkerTurnedMember

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:51 am

candidlatke wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:I went to U of Chicago. When I applied to law schools, I was working-class, doing a blue collar job finishing college. All my family and friends were same, everyday people with no particular connection to "engineering," "law," "medicine," etc. The perception at the time on which schools were best for me to apply, irrespective of actual US news rankings (we weren't really aware of at the beginning) and after we realized I could get into the "good" schools instead of applying "local," was Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. MIT and Princeton were also thrown in but obviously didn't apply. When I applied and told people where I was applying, they would almost always single out Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. A few also were impressed by U of Chicago. I know this is hugely anecdotal, but I come from an "everyday" background if you will. And since going through law school, and meeting so many overly well off people, I can't stand when someone from a well off background who grew up through private schools, and knew everything law because they grew up expected and prepared to be some kind of professional, tries to, with a sense of "the world rotates around me," impute their very researched and unordinary understanding of the legal profession and schools to everyday people, like that guy above who, like those snobs we all met at one point, for some reason still cares about private versus public school distinction.

I'm not saying other schools aren't great. They are. I'm just saying if you asked everyday people to name the top engineering school, law school, medical school, or the like, people will go with their perception on the university as a whole because they don't have the same particular understanding of the specific professions we do now, especially law. So whichever one you ask (i.e., about law, medicine, etc.), you'll get answers like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, etc. You won't get UVA, Michigan, NYU, Duke, Vandy, or the like because generally they don't have that specific national lay person reputation for academics. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools. They are. And that doesn't mean they also aren't well known for something. They are; I'm sure if I asked people to name the best basketball programs, Duke would pop up immediately. But when it comes to academics, for a long time it's been Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley, MIT, and a few others that dominate across the board in academics and the media. It has never been schools that are good at one particular thing, especially when that thing is non-academic, like Duke with basketball and as we here know law but no other high academic ranking in any other departments.

This of course varies from one part of the country to another, but generally on a national level, and international level, it holds true.


This is some 180 trolling. Not everyone is from a wealthy, prep school background on here, and I'm pretty sure I'd win if we were to compare who was more "blue collar." BTW, that's such a weird criticism to level at people who disagree with you. What sort of prick claims to speak "for the people," and claim that their own life experiences holds true across America, when their only experience is in Chicago.

In my area, no one blinked at Berkeley. There, it had less lay prestige than literally every other school you mentioned with the exception of NYU. On the east coast (which is the only coast that matters), Duke will be considered better by virtually everyone. I'd be surprised if you could find a single layperson mention Berkeley as the best in anything (Harvard will probably win no matter what field we're talking). Hell, Stanford wouldn't be in the same conversation as HYP and MIT throughout most of the east coast, and would be seen as Duke's peer. Stop living in a fantasy world. This is as stupid of an argument as the guy citing some random international rankings. Outside of HYP, schools are heavily regional, and that will determine what the layperson thinks is the best. Stop speaking for the country.


You would've saved yourself a lot of time if you actually read my post. I didn't just live in chicago. I've lived throughout the midwest mostly and I can tell you based on experience, no one knows Duke for academics. In fact, many local colleges are seen as kings typically, with only a few national colleges managing to pierce through and also be relevant. Of course, this includes mostly Harvard, and sometimes Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Berkeley. Duke is nowhere in the midwest. Shit. I have to google where it is exactly in NC, so I can only imagine what someone outside the legal profession (where duke has sway in academics) would have to do to know it even exists in academics. It's true on the west ckast where i lived, and it's also true on the east coast in Massachusetts where I lived.

Now, I'm not saying people don't know it. They do, for basketball. But that's not what we're talking about here. Please don't respond to my post. I don't want to engage with someone who either can't read or purposefully trolls through strawman arguments.



it might be different on the midwest, but on the westcoast, growing up in a family with <30k yearly income, duke was markedly better.
there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special, as someone growing up in cali since the public school system meant there would always be like two or more kids going there from each school. it was always more of the "good work, you went to berkeley" but the top privates were always thought to be more prestigious/special. for what it's worth, no one knew about the LAC's or emory or etc. but duke was well known for some reason, even outside of the basketball scene.

and i truly, truly, find it hard to believe that Harvard/yale/princeton/MIT are the only schools in peer lay prestige with berkeley. the ivy league is the ivy league for a reason, and as much as it's annoying/as much as it shouldn't be thought to be a holy land, i find it hard to believe you when you say that berkeley was more well known/was better regarded than the ivys where you grew up. not saying it's impossible, just very implausible


I apologize if I didn't explain myself as well as I should have. People definitely knew about the ivy league and how they're great schools. But if you were to ask people to list the schools that are ivies, they'd have a hard time other than the few well known ones. And at no point did I try to say that one recognized school was better regarded than another. I just meant that there were a common group of schools that, at a minimum, get recognized, and specifically for academics. Whether one is recognized more so than another is a different question. But the schools I mentioned tend to be recognized. And like I said, this definitely varies from one part of the country. I'm aure there are places where people don't know berkeley, NYU, or Yale exist, and other places where they do but not too sure about em, and other places where... You get the pointm but if you were to generalize, nationally, and ask which schools, at a minimum, get recognized specifically for academics.. That's what I was talking about. And I even qualified it by saying it was hugely anecdotal because it's based on my experiences. But people flipped out cause apparently I can't have my own opinion or mention what my experience has been on the topic. It doesn't even matter, really.

Hikikomorist

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:52 am

Okay, when I talk about lay prestige, I'm talking about the average college graduate - roughly the median of people I've interacted substantively with throughout life. Looking back over previous posts, I noticed someone else cited an informal survey of seven people, with five being blue-collar workers. Not to be a dick, but I'm fine conceding those people might know almost nothing about college rankings (not agreeing - just admitting ignorance). They're not what comes to mind when I think of lay prestige.

First, I'm not sure the wholly ignorant segment makes up the majority. I also think there's a reasonable argument for discounting how heavily we weight certain views in calculating lay prestige. It doesn't seem like a lot of those people really have any opinions at all regarding college prestige, and weighting their opinions equally against people who have actual opinions doesn't seem like the absolutely right approach. As an analogy, most people couldn't name the three-star Michelin restaurants in the U.S., but I think it would still be fair to use that list as a proxy for restaurant lay prestige.

This is fun.

LurkerTurnedMember

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:04 am

Hikikomorist wrote:Okay, when I talk about lay prestige, I'm talking about the average college graduate - roughly the median of people I've interacted substantively with throughout life. Looking back over previous posts, I noticed someone else cited an informal survey of seven people, with five being blue-collar workers. Not to be a dick, but I'm fine conceding those people might know almost nothing about college rankings (not agreeing - just admitting ignorance). They're not what comes to mind when I think of lay prestige.

First, I'm not sure the wholly ignorant segment makes up the majority. I also think there's a reasonable argument for discounting how heavily we weight certain views in calculating lay prestige. It doesn't seem like a lot of those people really have any opinions at all regarding college prestige, and weighting their opinions equally against people who have actual opinions doesn't seem like the absolutely right approach. As an analogy, most people couldn't name the three-star Michelin restaurants in the U.S., but I think it would still be fair to use that list as a proxy for restaurant lay prestige.

This is fun.


I want to clarify what I said before. Take everything I said with a fist full of salt. It likely doesn't translate to what is actually the case and I was just saying what MY experience has been like. I think this discussion is ruining the thread so I'm not going to talk about this anymore or respond in this thread any more.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:19 am

https://preftige.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/lay-prestige/

This is amazing, and I wish I had thought of it.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:06 am

Hikikomorist wrote:Okay, when I talk about lay prestige, I'm talking about the average college graduate - roughly the median of people I've interacted substantively with throughout life. Looking back over previous posts, I noticed someone else cited an informal survey of seven people, with five being blue-collar workers. Not to be a dick, but I'm fine conceding those people might know almost nothing about college rankings (not agreeing - just admitting ignorance). They're not what comes to mind when I think of lay prestige.

First, I'm not sure the wholly ignorant segment makes up the majority. I also think there's a reasonable argument for discounting how heavily we weight certain views in calculating lay prestige. It doesn't seem like a lot of those people really have any opinions at all regarding college prestige, and weighting their opinions equally against people who have actual opinions doesn't seem like the absolutely right approach. As an analogy, most people couldn't name the three-star Michelin restaurants in the U.S., but I think it would still be fair to use that list as a proxy for restaurant lay prestige.

This is fun.


Pretty random way to define lay prestige tbh.

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brinicolec

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby brinicolec » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:17 am

candidlatke wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:I went to U of Chicago. When I applied to law schools, I was working-class, doing a blue collar job finishing college. All my family and friends were same, everyday people with no particular connection to "engineering," "law," "medicine," etc. The perception at the time on which schools were best for me to apply, irrespective of actual US news rankings (we weren't really aware of at the beginning) and after we realized I could get into the "good" schools instead of applying "local," was Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. MIT and Princeton were also thrown in but obviously didn't apply. When I applied and told people where I was applying, they would almost always single out Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. A few also were impressed by U of Chicago. I know this is hugely anecdotal, but I come from an "everyday" background if you will. And since going through law school, and meeting so many overly well off people, I can't stand when someone from a well off background who grew up through private schools, and knew everything law because they grew up expected and prepared to be some kind of professional, tries to, with a sense of "the world rotates around me," impute their very researched and unordinary understanding of the legal profession and schools to everyday people, like that guy above who, like those snobs we all met at one point, for some reason still cares about private versus public school distinction.

I'm not saying other schools aren't great. They are. I'm just saying if you asked everyday people to name the top engineering school, law school, medical school, or the like, people will go with their perception on the university as a whole because they don't have the same particular understanding of the specific professions we do now, especially law. So whichever one you ask (i.e., about law, medicine, etc.), you'll get answers like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, etc. You won't get UVA, Michigan, NYU, Duke, Vandy, or the like because generally they don't have that specific national lay person reputation for academics. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools. They are. And that doesn't mean they also aren't well known for something. They are; I'm sure if I asked people to name the best basketball programs, Duke would pop up immediately. But when it comes to academics, for a long time it's been Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley, MIT, and a few others that dominate across the board in academics and the media. It has never been schools that are good at one particular thing, especially when that thing is non-academic, like Duke with basketball and as we here know law but no other high academic ranking in any other departments.

This of course varies from one part of the country to another, but generally on a national level, and international level, it holds true.


This is some 180 trolling. Not everyone is from a wealthy, prep school background on here, and I'm pretty sure I'd win if we were to compare who was more "blue collar." BTW, that's such a weird criticism to level at people who disagree with you. What sort of prick claims to speak "for the people," and claim that their own life experiences holds true across America, when their only experience is in Chicago.

In my area, no one blinked at Berkeley. There, it had less lay prestige than literally every other school you mentioned with the exception of NYU. On the east coast (which is the only coast that matters), Duke will be considered better by virtually everyone. I'd be surprised if you could find a single layperson mention Berkeley as the best in anything (Harvard will probably win no matter what field we're talking). Hell, Stanford wouldn't be in the same conversation as HYP and MIT throughout most of the east coast, and would be seen as Duke's peer. Stop living in a fantasy world. This is as stupid of an argument as the guy citing some random international rankings. Outside of HYP, schools are heavily regional, and that will determine what the layperson thinks is the best. Stop speaking for the country.


You would've saved yourself a lot of time if you actually read my post. I didn't just live in chicago. I've lived throughout the midwest mostly and I can tell you based on experience, no one knows Duke for academics. In fact, many local colleges are seen as kings typically, with only a few national colleges managing to pierce through and also be relevant. Of course, this includes mostly Harvard, and sometimes Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Berkeley. Duke is nowhere in the midwest. Shit. I have to google where it is exactly in NC, so I can only imagine what someone outside the legal profession (where duke has sway in academics) would have to do to know it even exists in academics. It's true on the west ckast where i lived, and it's also true on the east coast in Massachusetts where I lived.

Now, I'm not saying people don't know it. They do, for basketball. But that's not what we're talking about here. Please don't respond to my post. I don't want to engage with someone who either can't read or purposefully trolls through strawman arguments.



it might be different on the midwest, but on the westcoast, growing up in a family with <30k yearly income, duke was markedly better.
there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special, as someone growing up in cali, since the public school system meant there would always be like two or more kids going there from each school. it was always more of the "good work, you went to berkeley" but the top privates were always thought to be more prestigious/special. for what it's worth, no one knew about the LAC's or emory or etc., outside of the preppier kids/ones who had college educated parents and were aware of schools beyond the Ivy's & in-state schools, but duke was well known for some reason, even outside of the basketball scene. entering more educated/upper class parts like LA & SF after ug, the corresponding perspective on berkeley was the same - a good school but lacking in that selectivity that makes the private schools like duke & the ivy's seem "special"

and i truly, truly, find it hard to believe that Harvard/yale/princeton/MIT were the only peer schools in lay prestige with berkeley where you grew up. the ivy league is the ivy league for a reason, and as much as it's annoying/as much as it shouldn't be thought to be a holy land, i find it hard to believe you when you say that berkeley was more well known/was better regarded than the ivys where you grew up. not saying it's impossible, just very hard to believe



This is not relevant to the actual topic of the conversation but... Duke as the automatic team to come to mind as the best basketball program? Lol. No.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Npret » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:30 am

I'm not following exactly. Are people now arguing about what people who know nothing about law think about law schools and basing their arguments on the people they have personally known?

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:56 am

Moneytrees wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:Okay, when I talk about lay prestige, I'm talking about the average college graduate - roughly the median of people I've interacted substantively with throughout life. Looking back over previous posts, I noticed someone else cited an informal survey of seven people, with five being blue-collar workers. Not to be a dick, but I'm fine conceding those people might know almost nothing about college rankings (not agreeing - just admitting ignorance). They're not what comes to mind when I think of lay prestige.

First, I'm not sure the wholly ignorant segment makes up the majority. I also think there's a reasonable argument for discounting how heavily we weight certain views in calculating lay prestige. It doesn't seem like a lot of those people really have any opinions at all regarding college prestige, and weighting their opinions equally against people who have actual opinions doesn't seem like the absolutely right approach. As an analogy, most people couldn't name the three-star Michelin restaurants in the U.S., but I think it would still be fair to use that list as a proxy for restaurant lay prestige.

This is fun.


Pretty random way to define lay prestige tbh.

Yeah, it's not really lay prestige, it's "people who think like I do" prestige. The whole point of lay prestige is that it's uninformed.

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brinicolec

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby brinicolec » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:00 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:Okay, when I talk about lay prestige, I'm talking about the average college graduate - roughly the median of people I've interacted substantively with throughout life. Looking back over previous posts, I noticed someone else cited an informal survey of seven people, with five being blue-collar workers. Not to be a dick, but I'm fine conceding those people might know almost nothing about college rankings (not agreeing - just admitting ignorance). They're not what comes to mind when I think of lay prestige.

First, I'm not sure the wholly ignorant segment makes up the majority. I also think there's a reasonable argument for discounting how heavily we weight certain views in calculating lay prestige. It doesn't seem like a lot of those people really have any opinions at all regarding college prestige, and weighting their opinions equally against people who have actual opinions doesn't seem like the absolutely right approach. As an analogy, most people couldn't name the three-star Michelin restaurants in the U.S., but I think it would still be fair to use that list as a proxy for restaurant lay prestige.

This is fun.


Pretty random way to define lay prestige tbh.

Yeah, it's not really lay prestige, it's "people who think like I do" prestige. The whole point of lay prestige is that it's uninformed.


I consider lay prestige the opinion of someone random, like when I'm bartending and one of my regulars asks me where I got into law school and I say something like "Michigan" and then they ask me if I'm going to apply to the University of Wyoming.

Edit: I also literally couldn't care less about these people's perception of prestige lol

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brinicolec

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby brinicolec » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:01 am

Npret wrote:I'm not following exactly. Are people now arguing about what people who know nothing about law think about law schools and basing their arguments on the people they have personally known?


.... It's late here and I'm a little sleepy but, if I read this correctly, I think that sounds about right.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rcharter1978 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:44 am

Npret wrote:I'm not following exactly. Are people now arguing about what people who know nothing about law think about law schools and basing their arguments on the people they have personally known?


Its important to know what people you don't know think about you.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rcharter1978 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:47 am

I remember having a supervisor who was of Asian descent. She once told me about "parachute babies" who were the children of uber rich Chinese families who lived in the US, while the family lived in China. She said they would often get here and just go to whatever school so their parents would pay their bills and they wouldn't have to work. Since their parents didn't know any better they could be convinced that any school was really prestigious, so she said there were a bunch of really rich people in China that thought Santa Monica Community College was the premiere college on the west coast.

Not sure if its true, but I just thought it was funny considering the discussion of lay prestige.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby nimbus cloud » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:20 am

candidlatke wrote:there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special


This is interesting. It is intuitive, I guess, that familiarity deflates the mystique and hurts lay prestige. I wonder how Harvard is perceived by laypeople in Boston.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Nebby » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:24 am

nimbus cloud wrote:
candidlatke wrote:there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special


This is interesting. It is intuitive, I guess, that familiarity deflates the mystique and hurts lay prestige. I wonder how Harvard is perceived by laypeople in Boston.

Insufferable, probably

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby KissMyAxe » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:03 am

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
candidlatke wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
This is some 180 trolling. Not everyone is from a wealthy, prep school background on here, and I'm pretty sure I'd win if we were to compare who was more "blue collar." BTW, that's such a weird criticism to level at people who disagree with you. What sort of prick claims to speak "for the people," and claim that their own life experiences holds true across America, when their only experience is in Chicago.

In my area, no one blinked at Berkeley. There, it had less lay prestige than literally every other school you mentioned with the exception of NYU. On the east coast (which is the only coast that matters), Duke will be considered better by virtually everyone. I'd be surprised if you could find a single layperson mention Berkeley as the best in anything (Harvard will probably win no matter what field we're talking). Hell, Stanford wouldn't be in the same conversation as HYP and MIT throughout most of the east coast, and would be seen as Duke's peer. Stop living in a fantasy world. This is as stupid of an argument as the guy citing some random international rankings. Outside of HYP, schools are heavily regional, and that will determine what the layperson thinks is the best. Stop speaking for the country.


You would've saved yourself a lot of time if you actually read my post. I didn't just live in chicago. I've lived throughout the midwest mostly and I can tell you based on experience, no one knows Duke for academics. In fact, many local colleges are seen as kings typically, with only a few national colleges managing to pierce through and also be relevant. Of course, this includes mostly Harvard, and sometimes Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Berkeley. Duke is nowhere in the midwest. Shit. I have to google where it is exactly in NC, so I can only imagine what someone outside the legal profession (where duke has sway in academics) would have to do to know it even exists in academics. It's true on the west ckast where i lived, and it's also true on the east coast in Massachusetts where I lived.

Now, I'm not saying people don't know it. They do, for basketball. But that's not what we're talking about here. Please don't respond to my post. I don't want to engage with someone who either can't read or purposefully trolls through strawman arguments.



it might be different on the midwest, but on the westcoast, growing up in a family with <30k yearly income, duke was markedly better.
there were just too many kids going to berkeley for it to be seen as anything really that special, as someone growing up in cali since the public school system meant there would always be like two or more kids going there from each school. it was always more of the "good work, you went to berkeley" but the top privates were always thought to be more prestigious/special. for what it's worth, no one knew about the LAC's or emory or etc. but duke was well known for some reason, even outside of the basketball scene.

and i truly, truly, find it hard to believe that Harvard/yale/princeton/MIT are the only schools in peer lay prestige with berkeley. the ivy league is the ivy league for a reason, and as much as it's annoying/as much as it shouldn't be thought to be a holy land, i find it hard to believe you when you say that berkeley was more well known/was better regarded than the ivys where you grew up. not saying it's impossible, just very implausible


I apologize if I didn't explain myself as well as I should have. People definitely knew about the ivy league and how they're great schools. But if you were to ask people to list the schools that are ivies, they'd have a hard time other than the few well known ones. And at no point did I try to say that one recognized school was better regarded than another. I just meant that there were a common group of schools that, at a minimum, get recognized, and specifically for academics. Whether one is recognized more so than another is a different question. But the schools I mentioned tend to be recognized. And like I said, this definitely varies from one part of the country. I'm aure there are places where people don't know berkeley, NYU, or Yale exist, and other places where they do but not too sure about em, and other places where... You get the pointm but if you were to generalize, nationally, and ask which schools, at a minimum, get recognized specifically for academics.. That's what I was talking about. And I even qualified it by saying it was hugely anecdotal because it's based on my experiences. But people flipped out cause apparently I can't have my own opinion or mention what my experience has been on the topic. It doesn't even matter, really.


You didn't give your own opinion. If you had said, "in my area, these schools are considered the best," no one would have argued. But you keep generalizing your own limited experiences and saying that these schools are nationally considered great for academics, while at the same time saying Duke is only known for basketball (BTW, I have no connection to Duke). But you have people on both the east and west coasts telling you Duke is considered better there, and you continue to obstinately maintain your story. Also, check out this thread, here are some of those prestige obsessed kids discussing their hometowns. Notice the interesting lack of Berkeley. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/col ... egion.html

Hikkomorist, lol at lay prestige being that weird subset of the population, especially when 70% of the US population do not have any sort of higher education. The people (the 5 blue collar workers) someone mentioned in the informal survey, are EXACTLY what should be coming to mind when you think of lay prestige. Now, lay prestige is a stupid reason to choose any school (it's a completely idiotic concept, since the layperson isn't hiring you), but at least use the word correctly.
Last edited by KissMyAxe on Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

BobBoblaw

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby BobBoblaw » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:08 am

Look, I understand that the law is a prestige-obsessed profession, but this is just ridiculous...

Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:16 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:Okay, when I talk about lay prestige, I'm talking about the average college graduate - roughly the median of people I've interacted substantively with throughout life. Looking back over previous posts, I noticed someone else cited an informal survey of seven people, with five being blue-collar workers. Not to be a dick, but I'm fine conceding those people might know almost nothing about college rankings (not agreeing - just admitting ignorance). They're not what comes to mind when I think of lay prestige.

First, I'm not sure the wholly ignorant segment makes up the majority. I also think there's a reasonable argument for discounting how heavily we weight certain views in calculating lay prestige. It doesn't seem like a lot of those people really have any opinions at all regarding college prestige, and weighting their opinions equally against people who have actual opinions doesn't seem like the absolutely right approach. As an analogy, most people couldn't name the three-star Michelin restaurants in the U.S., but I think it would still be fair to use that list as a proxy for restaurant lay prestige.

This is fun.


Pretty random way to define lay prestige tbh.

Yeah, it's not really lay prestige, it's "people who think like I do" prestige. The whole point of lay prestige is that it's uninformed.


That's not really fair, it's the "people I'm most likely going to name drop my law school to" prestige. Hiko is assuming that they probably won't be talking law school much with a midwest blue collar worker. Their substantive base line (or layperson) has a college degree and probably a white collar job. Does it immediately give away a coastal elite? probably. But it's a reasonable argument to make.

Same thing with the "International Rankings"; probably never going to talk to someone outside the US about what law school I went to, so why would their opinion matter.

Of course, at the end of the day, the opinion of one of Hiko's laypeople won't matter either, and it's a terrible metric to make any sort of decision on, but if you're going to consider it at all might as well think in terms of your own experiences

Lawl_Schoolz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Lawl_Schoolz » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:51 am

.
Last edited by Lawl_Schoolz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rigo

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Rigo » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:57 am

Such a shock that MS9 was right and rpumpkin isn't.

grades??

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby grades?? » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:17 am

Rigo wrote:Such a shock that MS9 was right and rpumpkin isn't.


rpumkin was trolling the whole time

Rigo

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Rigo » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:23 am

grades?? wrote:
Rigo wrote:Such a shock that MS9 was right and rpumpkin isn't.

rpumkin was trolling the whole time

Really? Are you sure? He doesn't seem like the type to lie.

ckb614

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby ckb614 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:09 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
haus wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown

So what's next? President Obama's REAL birth certificate?


Ironic thing people who were screaming about that never got that it wouldn't have mattered legally if Obama actually had been born in Kenya:) Didn't want to get politics involved, just felt the it needed to be said.


This is from memory, but I'm pretty sure Mama Obama had not been a citizen long enough to pass citizenship on to a child born outside the US, according to the laws at the time.

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jjcorvino

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby jjcorvino » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:12 am

Why are people so pissy about the prestige conversation? Obviously it doesn't actually matter, but it's a fun topic. I mean, everyone of course says that they don't care at all about prestige, but if the best law school in the country was bumblefuck Kentucky state university, wouldn't you be a bit peeved when nobody knows what it is when it comes up in conversations. Would be a bit tiring that everyone assumes you are a slacker or an idiot.



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