2018 USNWR Rankings

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chargers21

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby chargers21 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:42 am

Unbiased prestige rankings of law schools from a midwestern blue collar worker. "Harvard, Yale, Columbia, every other Ivy League that has a law school, Duke, Stanford......... Oh and I guess Northwestern"

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:47 am

RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:For what it's worth, I always thought that ND, Georgetown and Berkeley were ranked a little low by US news. In terms of lay prestige they are the best known schools after H, Y, Princeton and Stanford


ND, Georgetown, and Berkeley all have piss-poor student-faculty ratios when compared to their peers. Additionally, each school has at least one other major flaw that weighs it down. Notre Dame is predominately Catholic, warding off a ton of prospective Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and secular applicants, so they have a hard time keeping their acceptance rate low. Notre Dame has a level of self-selection similar to top liberal arts colleges. They get top applicants and fill their class with high GPA/ACT/SAT students, but they don't bring in a bunch of applicants from beyond their perceived target audience. If you want to be higher than a top 15 university, you need to do that or have such a small class size that your target audience is big enough to keep a very low acceptance rate (e.g. Caltech). Georgetown has a laughable endowment when compared to almost all of its peers on a per capita and absolute basis. The two schools it ties with in ranking (Berkeley and Emory) have endowments north of $4B and $6B respectively. Georgetown's endowment is just shy of $1.5B. Even Rice, a school a third of the size has a $5B+ endowment. Georgetown isn't going to make any jumps in ranking until it can increase its resources. As for Berkeley, its student-faculty ratio is far worse than even ND (10:1) or Georgetown (11:1), clocking in at 17:1. Almost every top 20 university has a student faculty ratio below 9:1, many with 7:1 and lower ratios. That's the struggle of being a publicly funded university. As a result, Berkeley's average class sizes are all much bigger than any top private institution.

They are properly ranked.

If you want prestige rankings, you should really be turning to your personal bias and those of people around you, not US News. US News, while a shit ranking, does actually have factors that matter in its placement other than preftige.


Jw, are things like student faculty ratio and endowment heavily weighed in the US news ranking? If so, perhaps that would explain why those schools are ranked relatively low.

Either way, you seem to be arguing that a school's student-faculty ratio should be extremely important in determining a school's rank, which seems pretty dumb to me.


Yes, things like student faculty ratio and endowment are heavily weighed in the US News rankings. Student faculty ratio + class size (directly correlated) make up 9% of the ranking. Financial resources per student (tied to endowment per capita) is given 10% of the ranking. So, 19% of the ranking is controlled by things that Georgetown and Berkeley suck at relative to their peers (yeah, even Berkeley's per capita endowment is small relative to top schools). Luckily for them, Notre Dame only sucks at the 9% that makes up SF ratio, but they must have other problems dragging them down (my guess would be their peer assessment survey). Regardless, when top schools are performing nearly identically in almost all other measures, your score on that 19% can make a lot of difference. I'm not making an argument that SF ratio and endowment should be extremely important (although I definitely think they are to an extent). I'm just supporting the fact that these schools are not lower ranked than they should be in US News. These schools are properly ranked (unless ND, GU, and Berkeley have been misreporting their SF ratio, class sizes, and endowments in a way that is detrimental to them).


It's pretty crazy that student faculty ratio/class size constitutes almost 10% of a school's score. That is some borderline Cooley ranking shit that gives private schools a huge advantage over public schools. Like, Cal has a shit ton of Nobel laureates and groundbreaking professors, far more than other schools in the top 15 like Brown or Wash U. I would rather be taught by world-famous academic leaders in a class of 50 than by no name professors in a class of 7, but maybe that's just me.


Apparently US News used to be calculated differently (source needed), and public schools weren't so harshly punished. I think at that point that Berkeley was top 10 or something like that. Actually, I just found it. Berkeley was ranked 5, 7, and 5 in the first 3 years of the ranking. Then, they must have changed their formula, because Berkeley shot down to 24 (http://web.archive.org/web/200709050102 ... &sort=1983) EDIT: Wow, I started looking at this more. The ranking adjustment screwed UW-Madison, Michigan, and other top publics really hard.

I'd personally rather be taught by a well-respected professor who hasn't won an Nobel (there are a lot of those) in a class of 12 than by a Nobel laureate in a class of 300, but that's just my personal bias when it comes to education. I don't think that the class size impacts the quality of education in significant way though, and it definitely should not be worth 10% in US News.


I understand that perspective. To be fair, I attended another UC and our classes never approached 300 people (or anything near that number). The biggest ones were the intro classes you took as a freshman that had maybe 75 or 100 people. As you progressed within your major, class size shrunk considerably. By the time I was a senior, most of my classes had like 10 or 15 people.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby candidlatke » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:44 am

Moneytrees wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:For what it's worth, I always thought that ND, Georgetown and Berkeley were ranked a little low by US news. In terms of lay prestige they are the best known schools after H, Y, Princeton and Stanford


ND, Georgetown, and Berkeley all have piss-poor student-faculty ratios when compared to their peers. Additionally, each school has at least one other major flaw that weighs it down. Notre Dame is predominately Catholic, warding off a ton of prospective Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and secular applicants, so they have a hard time keeping their acceptance rate low. Notre Dame has a level of self-selection similar to top liberal arts colleges. They get top applicants and fill their class with high GPA/ACT/SAT students, but they don't bring in a bunch of applicants from beyond their perceived target audience. If you want to be higher than a top 15 university, you need to do that or have such a small class size that your target audience is big enough to keep a very low acceptance rate (e.g. Caltech). Georgetown has a laughable endowment when compared to almost all of its peers on a per capita and absolute basis. The two schools it ties with in ranking (Berkeley and Emory) have endowments north of $4B and $6B respectively. Georgetown's endowment is just shy of $1.5B. Even Rice, a school a third of the size has a $5B+ endowment. Georgetown isn't going to make any jumps in ranking until it can increase its resources. As for Berkeley, its student-faculty ratio is far worse than even ND (10:1) or Georgetown (11:1), clocking in at 17:1. Almost every top 20 university has a student faculty ratio below 9:1, many with 7:1 and lower ratios. That's the struggle of being a publicly funded university. As a result, Berkeley's average class sizes are all much bigger than any top private institution.

They are properly ranked.

If you want prestige rankings, you should really be turning to your personal bias and those of people around you, not US News. US News, while a shit ranking, does actually have factors that matter in its placement other than preftige.


Jw, are things like student faculty ratio and endowment heavily weighed in the US news ranking? If so, perhaps that would explain why those schools are ranked relatively low.

Either way, you seem to be arguing that a school's student-faculty ratio should be extremely important in determining a school's rank, which seems pretty dumb to me.


Yes, things like student faculty ratio and endowment are heavily weighed in the US News rankings. Student faculty ratio + class size (directly correlated) make up 9% of the ranking. Financial resources per student (tied to endowment per capita) is given 10% of the ranking. So, 19% of the ranking is controlled by things that Georgetown and Berkeley suck at relative to their peers (yeah, even Berkeley's per capita endowment is small relative to top schools). Luckily for them, Notre Dame only sucks at the 9% that makes up SF ratio, but they must have other problems dragging them down (my guess would be their peer assessment survey). Regardless, when top schools are performing nearly identically in almost all other measures, your score on that 19% can make a lot of difference. I'm not making an argument that SF ratio and endowment should be extremely important (although I definitely think they are to an extent). I'm just supporting the fact that these schools are not lower ranked than they should be in US News. These schools are properly ranked (unless ND, GU, and Berkeley have been misreporting their SF ratio, class sizes, and endowments in a way that is detrimental to them).


It's pretty crazy that student faculty ratio/class size constitutes almost 10% of a school's score. That is some borderline Cooley ranking shit that gives private schools a huge advantage over public schools. Like, Cal has a shit ton of Nobel laureates and groundbreaking professors, far more than other schools in the top 15 like Brown or Wash U. I would rather be taught by world-famous academic leaders in a class of 50 than by no name professors in a class of 7, but maybe that's just me.


Apparently US News used to be calculated differently (source needed), and public schools weren't so harshly punished. I think at that point that Berkeley was top 10 or something like that. Actually, I just found it. Berkeley was ranked 5, 7, and 5 in the first 3 years of the ranking. Then, they must have changed their formula, because Berkeley shot down to 24 (http://web.archive.org/web/200709050102 ... &sort=1983) EDIT: Wow, I started looking at this more. The ranking adjustment screwed UW-Madison, Michigan, and other top publics really hard.

I'd personally rather be taught by a well-respected professor who hasn't won an Nobel (there are a lot of those) in a class of 12 than by a Nobel laureate in a class of 300, but that's just my personal bias when it comes to education. I don't think that the class size impacts the quality of education in significant way though, and it definitely should not be worth 10% in US News.


I understand that perspective. To be fair, I attended another UC and our classes never approached 300 people (or anything near that number). The biggest ones were the intro classes you took as a freshman that had maybe 75 or 100 people. As you progressed within your major, class size shrunk considerably. By the time I was a senior, most of my classes had like 10 or 15 people.


Which UC was that?
Cuz personal experience & anecdotal experience from friends across UCSB/UCI/UCLA/UCSD tells me that the big intro lectures like Soc 1 and whatnot were in the massive lecture halls with a cap at like 175-250 with a healthy waitlist of up to 30-40 kids (though waitlist usually never mattered that much)

Senior thesis type classes were at 15-20 but those were rare; even in senior level classes they were usually at a cap of 60 for the general upper division classes

And I get the original sentiment; RBP wasn't explaining USNWR with USNWR but more just explaining how they judged schools

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:03 am

They should revisit the methodology. I wouldn't mind a social mobility measure for how many Pell Grant eligible students (family income of 50k or less) make up the class (I know they're awarded usually to undergrads but the income lvl for eligibility is relevant). I bet half the top 10 law schools would drop to the 20s lol

Edit: whoa! They have it for undergraduate schools already! https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... ed-schools

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:09 am

It was one of UCs you mentioned. I definitely had some classes in big lecture halls, but unless I'm just totally remembering wrong (I graduated from college a while ago) I don't remember ever being in a class with over 150 people. I studied philosophy, not sure if it was due to my major not being super popular but my senior level classes were generally small (less than 20 students).

I guess my general point is that I don't think it's necessarily fair to to say "X school has a high student-faculty ratio, it must blow compared to elite private schools." Many of my professors were Nobel laureates, MacArthur Fellows, members of the National Academy of Sciences, etc., and I really enjoyed being taught by some of them, even if there were a lot of people in those classes.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby malibustacy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:27 am

Wow this thread is complete cancer.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby shadowfax » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:44 pm

malibustacy wrote:Wow this thread is complete cancer.


Find a better metaphor.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:53 pm

shadowfax wrote:
malibustacy wrote:Wow this thread is complete cancer Trump administration.


Find a better metaphor.

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Harvard_Naw

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Harvard_Naw » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:13 pm

Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:22 pm

Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Harvard_Naw » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:10 pm

Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday


Ty

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rcharter1978 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:38 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
WaitWhat wrote:Seems to me that a hugely important aspect of the law school application/selection process is generally being overlooked on this forum: Cost.

Obviously ranking (UNS News based or otherwise) is important, because in very broad terms the higher your law school is ranked the better its perception is among employers, which in turn increases your relative odds of getting a Big Law job (which seems to be what most folks on here desire). That said, once you have actual gotten into a "good" law school (I will define "good" as any one regularly ranked in the top 20, although feel free to quibble on what the arbitrary cut-off should be), what you quickly realize is that your chances of (1) getting interviews, and (2) getting a job, is based almost solely on how you have actually performed in said law school relative to your peers (and to a lesser extent what fancy journal you are a member of, with the Law Review being the obvious best option). In short, outside of the top say 5 schools on the list, you need to get good to very good grades (no easy thing, given the ludicrously antiquated and capricious manner in which law school grading is generally conducted) at your school in order to be relatively assured of landing a Big law job in any event. And once that realization sinks in, COST looms as a rather large consideration. Take, for example, a hypothetical student X. X had the grades and the LSAT to get into a bunch of tasty law schools. X had the choice between fine institutions ranked anywhere from 7 to 15 on the law school rankings range. Based on the prevailing wisdom that higher rankings are King, X enrolls at the school ranked 7th. It is a small, private school halfway across the country from where he went to college/is from. It costs a fortune and the weather blows. X is a middling student at X, and his grades fall into the great, undifferentiated mass of "ok" that constitutes the bulk of the law school student body. The prestigious law review is not an option, and thus X is a member of some journal about foreign law and policy. X isn't an editor of said journal, because frankly he would like to have some free time. X gets his OCI at-bats, because he is at a top flight school, but X doesn't exactly kill because X is not in the top third of his class and lacks super-star extras on his resume. X ends ups clerking at three firms over two summers, one of which doesn't make X an offer, and then predictably takes the offer from the biggest of the two firms that do make offers. X enters his randomly selected Big Law job in a random city with a boat-load of debt (not at all uncommon of course). Of course, all in all, X has "succeeded." He has grasped the brass ring and leased a nice car. BUT......what if X had chosen a lower ranked, but significantly less expensive school? Say X is eligible for in-state tuition at say, a school rankled 11th or 14th (these are randomly elected #s, not matched to this year's rankings)? What if X went to one of those schools, paid significantly less, did a bit better grade-wise (as the overall competition was slightly less rabid)? One very possible scenario is this: X goes through the same random OCI process, gets another random Big Law job (in a different city) and makes about the same amount of money doing the same work, but with less debt. X also realizes, as everyone does, that once one enters Big Law, where you went to school and what the school's rank was is essentially meaningless, aside from people liking to share war stories and give each other a hard time. What matters is work, and how much of it you can or will do.

Anyway, obviously one size does not fit all here. Elite law schools were some sort of an in-state tuition break are an option at all are relatively rare, and the fact pattern above won't work for plenty of people. But, the overall concepts still hold: think about the cost, and realize that the cost may not be worth it in the end (from a ultimate job placement/career perspective) unless you are confident you can excel at the school you pick. If gazing at a certain diploma while you review docs or revise a brief at 8:00 p.m. is going to be "worth it" for you, then there is no real counter-argument to that. I am also putting aside the "quality of the legal education" angle here, as that is pointless (something else you will all realize once you actually get into law school - but that is a whole other post...)


1. Helluva first post.
2. This is just a summary of what everyone here says all the time.
3. Very long.


The post would be more manageable if it was broken up into paragraphs.

Also, this is another opportunity for people to read a long post.

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LawMan16

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby LawMan16 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:47 pm

Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday


For what it's worth, USNWR suggests that its graduate school rankings will be published on Tuesday, March 14th:

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2017-02-21/coming-soon-2018-best-graduate-schools-rankings

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:08 pm

LawMan16 wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday


For what it's worth, USNWR suggests that its graduate school rankings will be published on Tuesday, March 14th:

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2017-02-21/coming-soon-2018-best-graduate-schools-rankings

:shock:
Any predictions as to what the real rankings will turn out to be?

haus

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:18 pm

rpupkin wrote:
LawMan16 wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday


For what it's worth, USNWR suggests that its graduate school rankings will be published on Tuesday, March 14th:

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2017-02-21/coming-soon-2018-best-graduate-schools-rankings

:shock:
Any predictions as to what the real rankings will turn out to be?

You mean other than what MS9 has already provided?

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UVA2B

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby UVA2B » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:29 pm

rpupkin wrote:
LawMan16 wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday


For what it's worth, USNWR suggests that its graduate school rankings will be published on Tuesday, March 14th:

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2017-02-21/coming-soon-2018-best-graduate-schools-rankings

:shock:
Any predictions as to what the real rankings will turn out to be?


Truly under appreciated trolling going on here. Rpupkin doin work ITT and deserves recognition for consistent performance.

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Pomeranian

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Pomeranian » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:37 pm

Rumor has it that these rankings this consulting company published are fake...they obtained a decoy list intentionally released by U.S. News to undermine the leakers.

Nobody will know for sure until they are published officially by U.S. News Monday evening. :(

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Baby Gaga » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:52 pm

UVA2B wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
LawMan16 wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Anyone know when US News intends to officially release the rankings?


I heard Monday


For what it's worth, USNWR suggests that its graduate school rankings will be published on Tuesday, March 14th:

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2017-02-21/coming-soon-2018-best-graduate-schools-rankings

:shock:
Any predictions as to what the real rankings will turn out to be?


Truly under appreciated trolling going on here. Rpupkin doin work ITT and deserves recognition for consistent performance.


agreed. on-brand and solid for the entire thread. A+

haus

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:38 pm

Pomeranian wrote:Rumor has it that these rankings this consulting company published are fake...they obtained a decoy list intentionally released by U.S. News to undermine the leakers.

Nobody will know for sure until they are published officially by U.S. News Monday evening. :(

If these people were capable of pulling off something useful then it is unlikely they would still be relevant enough to still be a magazine (yet that ship sailed years ago).

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Ferrisjso

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:08 pm

What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:27 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown

haus

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:30 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown

So what's next? President Obama's REAL birth certificate?

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Ferrisjso

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:31 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown


Damm. Poor Columbia, they still fell. Has the fact the leak was fake been confirmed or are you just making a prediction here? I wish this was ESPN before a bowl game and you could get reactions of the kids at UT, Georgetown and Boalt. Ahh the T13, you had a nice 48 hour run!

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Ferrisjso

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:32 pm

haus wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown

So what's next? President Obama's REAL birth certificate?


Ironic thing people who were screaming about that never got that it wouldn't have mattered legally if Obama actually had been born in Kenya:) Didn't want to get politics involved, just felt the it needed to be said.
Last edited by Ferrisjso on Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:35 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:What happens if Georgetown fired someone over rankings that turned out to false?

The top law schools (GULC included) know that the "leaked" rankings were a head fake intended to discourage leaks in future years. Here are the official rankings that will actually be released by USNWR in two days:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
6. Penn
8. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Duke
11. Michigan
11. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown


Damm. Poor Columbia, they still fell. Has the fact the leak was fake been confirmed or are you just making a prediction here?

Confirmed by inside sources at two different law schools.



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