2018 USNWR Rankings

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goldenbear2020

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby goldenbear2020 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:42 pm

Rigo wrote:
PrezRand wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
trooper10538 wrote:I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

technical

You're not guaranteed biglaw in the T6 either.

IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby kingpin101 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:44 pm

goldenbear2020 wrote:
Rigo wrote:
PrezRand wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
trooper10538 wrote:I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

technical

You're not guaranteed biglaw in the T6 either.

IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Harvard Med School says hi.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Rigo » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:50 pm

goldenbear2020 wrote:IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Just no reason to say T6 and exclude Penn if you're using a 90% threshold as a guarantee, especially when T6 have lower Biglaw placement. Yeah yeah I know self selection yadda yadda yadda but you can't really prove that.

Point is you're never guaranteed BigLaw so if you're going to jump off a bridge if you strike out, don't go to school.
I know a UChicago kid who struck out. It happens.

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PrezRand

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby PrezRand » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:51 pm

rpupkin wrote:
PrezRand wrote:I get that but I feel like this forum sometimes suggests that going to a school that isn't t20 like UCLA is a bad idea if biglaw is your goal. What if you want a decent chance at biglaw while avoiding massive debt? Yeah, a school where if you are at the median is better, but there is still no guarantee. The expression, biglaw or bust is always talked about and there are really only 6 schools that guarantee biglaw if you want it I don't feel like discussing this anymore so I'll leave it at that.

I read TLS all the time and I have not noticed that "the expression big law or bust is always talked about." It seems like you have a chip on your shoulder that's distorting how you understand other people's arguments and positions.

Ok let me retract and rephrase what I am trying to say here: I hate when people comment about schools like UCLA/Vandy/UT and say it's a good school if you are ok with not getting big law, ignore the possibility that someone may want to reduce debt, and then consistently talk about t14s being the only safe route for big law, while also not pointing out that there is no guarantee for biglaw in the t14 unless you go to a t6 school

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Lavitz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Lavitz » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:11 pm

PrezRand wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
PrezRand wrote:I get that but I feel like this forum sometimes suggests that going to a school that isn't t20 like UCLA is a bad idea if biglaw is your goal. What if you want a decent chance at biglaw while avoiding massive debt? Yeah, a school where if you are at the median is better, but there is still no guarantee. The expression, biglaw or bust is always talked about and there are really only 6 schools that guarantee biglaw if you want it I don't feel like discussing this anymore so I'll leave it at that.

I read TLS all the time and I have not noticed that "the expression big law or bust is always talked about." It seems like you have a chip on your shoulder that's distorting how you understand other people's arguments and positions.

Ok let me retract and rephrase what I am trying to say here: I hate when people comment about schools like UCLA/Vandy/UT and say it's a good school if you are ok with not getting big law, ignore the possibility that someone may want to reduce debt, and then consistently talk about t14s being the only safe route for big law, while also not pointing out that there is no guarantee for biglaw in the t14 unless you go to a t6 school

So if someone said "Hey, I'm thinking of UT. Any advice?" and someone else responded "It's a good school if you are ok with not getting biglaw, since the only safe route to biglaw is T13," you're mad that they don't add "but obviously biglaw is only a guarantee at T6," even though a) it's still not a guarantee, and b) the biglaw chances are barely, if at all, better than Penn, Cornell, Duke, NU, etc.. K.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:26 pm

Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

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chargers21

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby chargers21 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:32 pm

Moneytrees wrote:Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

I do! *stirs pot* :lol:

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:39 pm

Moneytrees wrote:Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

https://twitter.com/cdphipps21/status/8 ... 7804789761

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:45 pm

chargers21 wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

I do! *stirs pot* :lol:

At least UT and UCLA have been ranked among the Top 14 law schools at some point USNWR's history. But not Vandy. If you think about it, Vandy is more properly grouped with the likes of T20 also-rans Minnesota and Iowa. Embarrassing.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby chargers21 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:51 pm

rpupkin wrote:
chargers21 wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

I do! *stirs pot* :lol:

At least UT and UCLA have been ranked among the Top 14 law schools at some point USNWR's history. But not Vandy. If you think about it, Vandy is more properly grouped with the likes of T20 also-rans Minnesota and Iowa. Embarrassing.

never a t14. SAD

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby trooper10538 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:26 am

rpupkin wrote:
trooper10538 wrote:I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.


10-4.....lol....I will be applying to UT this fall with the hope of working in the AG office or a district attorney's office out of law school. Eventually I would like to be a AUSA.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby somedeadman » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:37 am

Moneytrees wrote:Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

Someone in this thread literally called vandy a garbage school, hence my question.

I believe it's somewhere in pages 8-12. I'd dig it up, but I'm on a cumbersome smart phone.
Last edited by somedeadman on Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby somedeadman » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:40 am

Rigo wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Just no reason to say T6 and exclude Penn if you're using a 90% threshold as a guarantee, especially when T6 have lower Biglaw placement. Yeah yeah I know self selection yadda yadda yadda but you can't really prove that.

Point is you're never guaranteed BigLaw so if you're going to jump off a bridge if you strike out, don't go to school.
I know a UChicago kid who struck out. It happens.


I'm curious about the options of someone striking out.

I heard mid sized law firms typically don't hire entry-level lawyers; is that true? So do those who pursued big law and not get it join a small law firm, work for themselves, low-level public interest?

PS - genuine question from a wide eyed 0L

Moneytrees

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:08 am

somedeadman wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

Someone in this thread literally called vandy a garbage school, hence my question.

I believe it's somewhere in pages 8-12. I'd dig it up, but I'm on a cumbersome smart phone.


TLS can be hyperbolic but generally Vandy is a well regarded school. GULC, Vandy, UCLA and UT have all had really similar employment stats over the last 3 or so years. People like to give GULC a tough time about having mediocre numbers, but they are only mediocre when compared to the T13. Overall, the schools I mentioned are solid but are not worth anywhere near sticker price, since only about 45% of students can reasonably expect a Biglaw gig/clerkship. The sad part is that GULC places a ton of people into Biglaw, so if it dropped its class size by 150 or 200 people, it would have great employment stats (you can't really say that about its peer schools, though UCLA could probably shrink its class as well).

In terms of placing students into elite jobs, the tiers are
1) T13
2) UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA
3) USC/ND/BC/BU/GW/maybe Emory
4) Everyone else.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:38 am

Moneytrees wrote:In terms of placing students into elite jobs, the tiers are
1) T13
2) UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA
3) USC/ND/BC/BU/GW/maybe Emory
4) Everyone else.


This is the best list I've seen.

Dividing up schools in the T13 is a useless exercise. HYS, CCN, and PVDNC have (11/13), for the sake of things, pretty much equal records in placing students into big law jobs with a few percentage point variation here and there that aren't substantial enough to make a new tier. Michigan has lower BL numbers, but a lot of that can be contributed to PI/Gov't self-selection. I would say that I'm skeptical of Berkeley's BL placement though, even though they too self self-select into PI/Gov't. 11.2% of graduates are at firms with <100 attorneys, which is the highest percentage in the T13 I believe. With that being said, my skepticism is probably mostly unfounded, and Berkeley is still safely above UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:19 am

Rigo wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Just no reason to say T6 and exclude Penn if you're using a 90% threshold as a guarantee, especially when T6 have lower Biglaw placement. Yeah yeah I know self selection yadda yadda yadda but you can't really prove that.

Point is you're never guaranteed BigLaw so if you're going to jump off a bridge if you strike out, don't go to school.
I know a UChicago kid who struck out. It happens.


I know Harvard kids who strike out. It's possible to strike out from HYSCCN (and P, I guess, if that's your real sticking point), but you have to actually fuck up in some pretty big ways. You can do everything right (staying at median, not being completely incapable of relating to another human being during interviews, etc.) at a lower T14 and still have an outside chance at not getting any offers during OCI.

Yes, you can't exactly prove self-selection, but you know full well that Yale students don't have a disadvantage in biglaw hiring. And just to cut it off at the pass, I'm sure you've heard this story from this guy about the other guy who said this one guy told him about a partner at a law firm who said he hates kids from Yale. That story was bullshit.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Npret » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:05 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Rigo wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Just no reason to say T6 and exclude Penn if you're using a 90% threshold as a guarantee, especially when T6 have lower Biglaw placement. Yeah yeah I know self selection yadda yadda yadda but you can't really prove that.

Point is you're never guaranteed BigLaw so if you're going to jump off a bridge if you strike out, don't go to school.
I know a UChicago kid who struck out. It happens.


I know Harvard kids who strike out. It's possible to strike out from HYSCCN (and P, I guess, if that's your real sticking point), but you have to actually fuck up in some pretty big ways. You can do everything right (staying at median, not being completely incapable of relating to another human being during interviews, etc.) at a lower T14 and still have an outside chance at not getting any offers during OCI.

Yes, you can't exactly prove self-selection, but you know full well that Yale students don't have a disadvantage in biglaw hiring. And just to cut it off at the pass, I'm sure you've heard this story from this guy about the other guy who said this one guy told him about a partner at a law firm who said he hates kids from Yale. That story was bullshit.


You also called a story I posted bullshit (regarding my family friend in hospital management.) I showed her that post and she found found your response interesting to say the least. She also finds the entire forum a waste of my time which I see her point.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:12 am

Npret wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Rigo wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Just no reason to say T6 and exclude Penn if you're using a 90% threshold as a guarantee, especially when T6 have lower Biglaw placement. Yeah yeah I know self selection yadda yadda yadda but you can't really prove that.

Point is you're never guaranteed BigLaw so if you're going to jump off a bridge if you strike out, don't go to school.
I know a UChicago kid who struck out. It happens.


I know Harvard kids who strike out. It's possible to strike out from HYSCCN (and P, I guess, if that's your real sticking point), but you have to actually fuck up in some pretty big ways. You can do everything right (staying at median, not being completely incapable of relating to another human being during interviews, etc.) at a lower T14 and still have an outside chance at not getting any offers during OCI.

Yes, you can't exactly prove self-selection, but you know full well that Yale students don't have a disadvantage in biglaw hiring. And just to cut it off at the pass, I'm sure you've heard this story from this guy about the other guy who said this one guy told him about a partner at a law firm who said he hates kids from Yale. That story was bullshit.


You also called a story I posted bullshit (regarding my family friend in hospital management.) I showed her that post and she found found your response interesting to say the least. She also finds the entire forum a waste of my time which I see her point.


Fun story. What was your point regarding this particular thread? Or are you really just looking for any opportunity to bring up a past slight?

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NCGuy

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby NCGuy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:29 am

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.
Last edited by NCGuy on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:33 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Npret wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Rigo wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:IMO, HYSCC probably gives its grads aiming for BL a ~90% chance of doing so, and that's as close to a guarantee of lucrative employment as anyone can reasonably expect from a degree program.

Just no reason to say T6 and exclude Penn if you're using a 90% threshold as a guarantee, especially when T6 have lower Biglaw placement. Yeah yeah I know self selection yadda yadda yadda but you can't really prove that.

Point is you're never guaranteed BigLaw so if you're going to jump off a bridge if you strike out, don't go to school.
I know a UChicago kid who struck out. It happens.


I know Harvard kids who strike out. It's possible to strike out from HYSCCN (and P, I guess, if that's your real sticking point), but you have to actually fuck up in some pretty big ways. You can do everything right (staying at median, not being completely incapable of relating to another human being during interviews, etc.) at a lower T14 and still have an outside chance at not getting any offers during OCI.

Yes, you can't exactly prove self-selection, but you know full well that Yale students don't have a disadvantage in biglaw hiring. And just to cut it off at the pass, I'm sure you've heard this story from this guy about the other guy who said this one guy told him about a partner at a law firm who said he hates kids from Yale. That story was bullshit.


You also called a story I posted bullshit (regarding my family friend in hospital management.) I showed her that post and she found found your response interesting to say the least. She also finds the entire forum a waste of my time which I see her point.


Fun story. What was your point regarding this particular thread? Or are you really just looking for any opportunity to bring up a past slight?

You are so mean cavy!

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:35 am

NCGuy wrote:I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

You're thinking of the mean.

The median is just the exact middle number in a sequence. So both of the following sets of numbers have a median of 50:

10 10 10 10 10 10 50 100 100 100 100 100

35 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 90 100

Most decent law schools look like the latter (or something similar).

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:37 am

Nebby wrote:You are so mean cavy!


Aw, you're making me blush!

Years of customer service jobs have forced me to resort to being blunt online, because I'm irrepressibly pleasant in-person.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby NCGuy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:39 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
NCGuy wrote:I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

You're thinking of the mean.

The median is just the exact middle number in a sequence. So both of the following sets of numbers have a median of 50:

10 10 10 10 10 10 50 100 100 100 100 100

35 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 90 100

Most decent law schools look like the latter (or something similar).


The mean is greatly affected by outliers, a median controls for that. For example: If Bill Gates has lunch with 20 homeless people, the mean net worth at the table is still >$1 billion. The median net worth is somewhere around $0.

I'm just saying that "staying around the median" is not just something that happens automatically. Depending on the grade distribution of your school, it could be quite difficult.
Last edited by NCGuy on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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OnlyHumean

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby OnlyHumean » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:40 am

NCGuy wrote:I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.


I think you mean that staying above median has a 50% chance (but I'm no good at this so maybe I'm wrong). In any case, I think the larger point is about how much of where you place in the class is within your control.

Obviously, it's not entirely within your control - some people are always going to be smarter / better at law school than you are, and some people will be worse at it. But there is a range in which it is within your control. Never show up to class, do any work, etc. your chances of falling below median rise substantially. Work hard, take it seriously, do all your studying, etc. and your chances of being above median improve, even if it is by no means a guarantee.

Also, it's just the best metric we have.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:43 am

NCGuy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
NCGuy wrote:I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

You're thinking of the mean.

The median is just the exact middle number in a sequence. So both of the following sets of numbers have a median of 50:

10 10 10 10 10 10 50 100 100 100 100 100

35 45 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 90 100

Most decent law schools look like the latter (or something similar).


The mean is greatly affected by outliers, a median controls for that. For example: If Bill Gates lunch with 20 homeless people, the mean net worth at the table is still >$1 billion. The median net worth is somewhere around $0.

I'm just saying that "staying around the median" is not just something that happens automatically. Depending on the grade distribution of your school, it could be quite difficult.


Yes, depending on grade distribution. But all decent law schools distribute grades such that the default is to be at median, and the outlier is to be significantly above or below. Most T14 schools only allow discretionary grades below median for exactly that reason.



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