2018 USNWR Rankings

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Moneytrees

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:51 pm

mudiverse wrote:
Kinch08 wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
My contention is that we should stop emphasizing the importance of rankings. Texas students should not spend a load of money to attend A&M simply because it is "up and coming" in a magazine. It is pretty obvious that the rankings can be gamed (UCI's meteoric rise is the best example of that).


Is spending a ton of money on scholarships to attract good students and a bunch of money on professors to lower class sizes really "gaming the system"? To me, it sounds like they're making their law school better. I think it'd be more of a problem if you couldn't change your ranking by attracting good students and faculty.


Indeed, rankings utilize metrics that are not perfect, but they are the best proxies we have for measuring performance. People assume "gaming" the rankings is a bad thing, but raising expenditures per student, having higher standards of admission, and higher bar passage rates would never be considered a negative.

Rankings don't capture the depth or detailed information on class profile, but what mechanism could possibly capture all the information for every student? It's decent enough and it's failures are well documented. UCI and Texas are rising because they are doing well and/or their competitors are doing worse period.


UCI isn't really "rising", but it doesn't really matter either way. They were able to crack the T30 by basically giving huge amounts of scholarship grants to their first few classes of students, which is great for those students, but doesn't really help the current students get jobs. Also, they are able to game the rankings by keeping their classes really small, which allows them to artificially boost their LSAT/GPA medians and employment stats. If UCI expanded its incoming classes to 175/200 students, their numbers would plummet and so would their ranking. I'm in favor of keeping law school classes small, but realistically no top law school is going to be economically viable with only 100 students per class.

I think UCI has been criticized quite a bit on these boards because Chem has been so outspoken about wanting to shake up legal education and create a different type of law school, but in practice UCI has become another super expensive school with fairly mediocre employment stats.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Rigo » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:55 pm

UCI is rising somewhat since Davis is falling. UCI is still essentially socal's Davis but as a rankings rift opens up between them, UCI looks more prestigious.

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Kronk

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Kronk » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Kinch08 wrote:
SPerez wrote:This is a totally valid, and probably under-appreciated point. I used to say the same thing about schools offering their own grads temp legal jobs back when that was still a thing. (Would you rather the school just did nothing at all to help? It wasn't ideal, but it was better than nothing as long as it wasn't answering phones or something like that.)

The question then becomes, though, whether any of those things actually make the education any better. The majority of USNWR rankings are based on inputs, and only in the last 10 years or so have people rightly focused more on outputs. The fact is that the professors teaching at and education being offered by the top schools is not really all that different than at lower ranked schools. There's actually an argument to be made that a higher percentage of professors at lower ranked schools are actually better TEACHERS than at the research-focused schools where hiring and promotion is based almost entirely on publications. There's definitely more of a focus on giving students exposure to practical skills needed to be a lawyer at regional schools, although the ABA is slowly forcing law schools to evolve on this through the accreditation standards.


Personally, I'd rather be taught by a really brilliant legal theorist who was only an okay teacher than by a hard-working guy with a real knack for teaching who hadn't published anything noteworthy. Not because I would necessarily learn more with the one than the other, but just because, I don't know, I have a thing for scholarship, in the abstract. I think a lot of people do. My preferences will probably change once I, you know, actually go to law school, though.


you are the reason law school is not enjoyable

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Npret » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:03 pm

SPerez wrote:
Kinch08 wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
My contention is that we should stop emphasizing the importance of rankings. Texas students should not spend a load of money to attend A&M simply because it is "up and coming" in a magazine. It is pretty obvious that the rankings can be gamed (UCI's meteoric rise is the best example of that).


Is spending a ton of money on scholarships to attract good students and a bunch of money on professors to lower class sizes really "gaming the system"? To me, it sounds like they're making their law school better. I think it'd be more of a problem if you couldn't change your ranking by attracting good students and faculty.


This is a totally valid, and probably under-appreciated point. I used to say the same thing about schools offering their own grads temp legal jobs back when that was still a thing. (Would you rather the school just did nothing at all to help? It wasn't ideal, but it was better than nothing as long as it wasn't answering phones or something like that.)

The question then becomes, though, whether any of those things actually make the education any better. The majority of USNWR rankings are based on inputs, and only in the last 10 years or so have people rightly focused more on outputs. The fact is that the professors teaching at and education being offered by the top schools is not really all that different than at lower ranked schools. There's actually an argument to be made that a higher percentage of professors at lower ranked schools are actually better TEACHERS than at the research-focused schools where hiring and promotion is based almost entirely on publications. There's definitely more of a focus on giving students exposure to practical skills needed to be a lawyer at regional schools, although the ABA is slowly forcing law schools to evolve on this through the accreditation standards.


Helping students to game employment stats and ranking without disclosing it was a problem. Helping students for just long enough that they could be counted as employed at nine months is the give away.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:03 pm

Rigo wrote:UCI is rising somewhat since Davis is falling. UCI is still essentially socal's Davis but as a rankings rift opens up between them, UCI looks more prestigious.


One of the things I was trying to get at in my post is that it's hard for me to see how UCI's rise is sustainable, since it will be tough for them to maintain their GPA/LSAT averages as they expand to a normal sized law school. Also, their employment stats are pretty mediocre currently, so any expansion in class sizes will also hurt their ranking.

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Kinch08

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Kinch08 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:18 pm

Kronk wrote:
you are the reason law school is not enjoyable


Expand on that.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby SPerez » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:22 pm

Npret wrote: Helping students to game employment stats and ranking without disclosing it was a problem. Helping students for just long enough that they could be counted as employed at nine months is the give away.


I agree. That wasn't the type of program I had in mind. That's what some schools were doing very early on before they started getting negative attention for it (non-legal jobs). They don't really exist much now because, IIRC, of changes to the reporting and funds to pay the students drying up in the application crash. You're right about the timing of them, but again, I'm sure all those students that took advantage of the legal internships were happy with 9 months instead of zero months.

Stephen M. Perez
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Npret

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Npret » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:29 pm

SPerez wrote:
Npret wrote: Helping students to game employment stats and ranking without disclosing it was a problem. Helping students for just long enough that they could be counted as employed at nine months is the give away.


I agree. That wasn't the type of program I had in mind. That's what some schools were doing very early on before they started getting negative attention for it (non-legal jobs). They don't really exist much now because, IIRC, of changes to the reporting and funds to pay the students drying up in the application crash. You're right about the timing of them, but again, I'm sure all those students that took advantage of the legal internships were happy with 9 months instead of zero months.

Stephen M. Perez
Prof. & Fmr. Admissions Dean


I think the students would have been happier to know truthful employment stats but who knows. Some people still seem to think a law degree is the key to wealth and that attitude was even more prevalent then.

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Kronk

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Kronk » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:36 pm

Kinch08 wrote:
Kronk wrote:
you are the reason law school is not enjoyable


Expand on that.


well it was hyperbole, and more aimed at the gunnerism that leads to people forgetting what they want / is best for them and substituting what they think they should want or what should be best for them.

the schools compete with each other for prestigious professors and totally abandon any effort to try to prepare you for practice. it's actually looked down upon to teach practical aspects of lawyering. what the fuck? during law school you're kind of led to believe the philosophy of the law is more important than the human aspect which is absolutely wrong in most cases in my experience.

i got really sick really fast of people needing to always look like the smartest person around and posturing and bragging or bemoaning law school rankings (like UGH IF I HAD KNOW BOALT WOULD DROP TO X I WOULD HAVE JUST GONE TO X SCHOOL), and whether or not their professors wrote the textbook or had been a white house staffer or whatever. it bleeds into this weird cattle herding driven by peer pressure to seek out jobs that a majority of people are miserable at. it's really weird and gunnery and i hated it. i know that went far beyond your comment so i apologize. these rankings threads are like a trigger for me, (fuck you kali for quoting me in here).

the classes i remember are the ones where i learned something, not the ones where the professor had to skip one of the classes to go speak in New Zealand about tort reform. idk you may feel differently once you get into class.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Rigo » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Kronk wrote:well it was hyperbole, and more aimed at the gunnerism that leads to people forgetting what they want / is best for them and substituting what they think they should want or what should be best for them.

the schools compete with each other for prestigious professors and totally abandon any effort to try to prepare you for practice. it's actually looked down upon to teach practical aspects of lawyering. what the fuck? during law school you're kind of led to believe the philosophy of the law is more important than the human aspect which is absolutely wrong in most cases in my experience.

i got really sick really fast of people needing to always look like the smartest person around and posturing and bragging or bemoaning law school rankings (like UGH IF I HAD KNOW BOALT WOULD DROP TO X I WOULD HAVE JUST GONE TO X SCHOOL), and whether or not their professors wrote the textbook or had been a white house staffer or whatever. it bleeds into this weird cattle herding driven by peer pressure to seek out jobs that a majority of people are miserable at. it's really weird and gunnery and i hated it. i know that went far beyond your comment so i apologize. these rankings threads are like a trigger for me, (fuck you kali for quoting me in here).

the classes i remember are the ones where i learned something, not the ones where the professor had to skip one of the classes to go speak in New Zealand about tort reform. idk you may feel differently once you get into class.

Good post. I've realized I'm prone to be herded into chasing prestigious misery, so I need to constantly check myself.

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Kronk

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Kronk » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:47 pm

Rigo wrote:
Kronk wrote:well it was hyperbole, and more aimed at the gunnerism that leads to people forgetting what they want / is best for them and substituting what they think they should want or what should be best for them.

the schools compete with each other for prestigious professors and totally abandon any effort to try to prepare you for practice. it's actually looked down upon to teach practical aspects of lawyering. what the fuck? during law school you're kind of led to believe the philosophy of the law is more important than the human aspect which is absolutely wrong in most cases in my experience.

i got really sick really fast of people needing to always look like the smartest person around and posturing and bragging or bemoaning law school rankings (like UGH IF I HAD KNOW BOALT WOULD DROP TO X I WOULD HAVE JUST GONE TO X SCHOOL), and whether or not their professors wrote the textbook or had been a white house staffer or whatever. it bleeds into this weird cattle herding driven by peer pressure to seek out jobs that a majority of people are miserable at. it's really weird and gunnery and i hated it. i know that went far beyond your comment so i apologize. these rankings threads are like a trigger for me, (fuck you kali for quoting me in here).

the classes i remember are the ones where i learned something, not the ones where the professor had to skip one of the classes to go speak in New Zealand about tort reform. idk you may feel differently once you get into class.

Good post. I've realized I'm prone to be herded into chasing prestigious misery, so I need to constantly check myself.


i am definitely prone to it. i never wanted a corporate law job before LS, but followed the herd through OCI and into a SA before i woke up and was like HUH I ACTUALLY DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS AND NEVER HAVE

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby somedeadman » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:15 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Crooked Cornell got it's hand on this leaked information before anyone else did, which is why it went on its very very unfair massacres this cycle! Sad!

Literally lol

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby somedeadman » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:16 pm

Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hennessy » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:41 pm

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Last edited by Hennessy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Itiswritten

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Itiswritten » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:50 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
PrezRand wrote:LACs are dope.
Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, CMC, Pomona, Wesleyan

Torn on Claremont McKenna. Great numbers, but overshadowed by Pomona.


Cmc isn't overshadowed by Pomona.

That's like saying Pomona is overshadowed by Harvey Mudd.

It's comparing Apples to pretentious sage-hens.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby goldenbear2020 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:15 pm

somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:21 pm

goldenbear2020 wrote:
somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.


What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?

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KissMyAxe

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby KissMyAxe » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:33 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:
somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.


What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?


1. That's unknown, but also seems irrelevant. Maybe you could expand on why this is important when we have overall biglaw numbers? Also, on that note, loved Kronk's post, though I'd argue Biglaw is actually the path of least resistance for T14 students and is not prestigious at all. Going for biglaw is more chasing money and the herd than chasing prestige (that would be more the clerkship route).
2. He didn't say they didn't. Stop getting defensive. But it does show Vanderbilt has a knack for putting people into those markets. That makes sense. Vandy is a regional school that caters to the South. If someone doesn't want to work there, then that's something to consider. And because most applicants do not want to work there, they disregard Vandy as a top flight school.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:41 pm

KissMyAxe wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:
somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.


What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?


1. That's unknown, but also seems irrelevant. Maybe you could expand on why this is important when we have overall biglaw numbers? Also, on that note, loved Kronk's post, though I'd argue Biglaw is actually the path of least resistance for T14 students and is not prestigious at all. Going for biglaw is more chasing money and the herd than chasing prestige (that would be more the clerkship route).
2. He didn't say they didn't. Stop getting defensive. But it does show Vanderbilt has a knack for putting people into those markets. That makes sense. Vandy is a regional school that caters to the South. If someone doesn't want to work there, then that's something to consider. And because most applicants do not want to work there, they disregard Vandy as a top flight school.


haha what? i legit am only saying that the statemet "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" doesn't say much...

Original Quesiton Was: WHy does Vandy Suck, their biglaw placement is pretty solid.
Response: Yeah, but they place biglaw into TN/GA (without evidence) and those aren't preferred locations (makes the assumption that those people didn't go for TN/GA in the first place).

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guynourmin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby guynourmin » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:49 pm

Itiswritten wrote:That's like saying Pomona is overshadowed by Harvey Mudd.


technically....

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lolRCscrewyou

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby lolRCscrewyou » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:02 pm

Duke gave me a scholarship while Berkeley left to die haha. I feel like many people experienced this last cycle though. Probably explains why they dropped so much, too many people were getting frustrated with their scholarship program and dipped out.

PrezRand wrote:
lolRCscrewyou wrote:Not true. I'm from California, want to practice in California, and chose Duke over Berkeley. It has been easier for me to get jobs than some of my Berkeley friends because firms see the same Berkeley attitudes all day everyday. Going to an East Coast school or mid west school is not the end all, be all rooms people who want to practice in California :)


PrezRand wrote:
HYPSM wrote:
PrezRand wrote:TLS logic: If UT had a 70% biglaw placement, but only in Texas, it would still not be t14


I see where you're coming from, but the T14 was always about national reach as well. UT is a fantastic school but it has less national reach.

Personally, I think national reach is overexaggerated. Most t14s self-select into a certain region. It wouldn't make sense to go to Cornell, Michigan, or Duke over Berkeley if you are from Cali or want to work there. Eventually, the resources at the respected school would simply cater to the region students voluntarily select into. If UT wanted to, I believe it could easily focus more on placing students nationally over time. But yes, UT Law has less national reach.

I don't think it makes sense to pay more for Duke just because some firms in cali prefer duke to berkeley

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby PrezRand » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:29 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:
somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.


What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?


1. That's unknown, but also seems irrelevant. Maybe you could expand on why this is important when we have overall biglaw numbers? Also, on that note, loved Kronk's post, though I'd argue Biglaw is actually the path of least resistance for T14 students and is not prestigious at all. Going for biglaw is more chasing money and the herd than chasing prestige (that would be more the clerkship route).
2. He didn't say they didn't. Stop getting defensive. But it does show Vanderbilt has a knack for putting people into those markets. That makes sense. Vandy is a regional school that caters to the South. If someone doesn't want to work there, then that's something to consider. And because most applicants do not want to work there, they disregard Vandy as a top flight school.


haha what? i legit am only saying that the statemet "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" doesn't say much...

Original Quesiton Was: WHy does Vandy Suck, their biglaw placement is pretty solid.
Response: Yeah, but they place biglaw into TN/GA (without evidence) and those aren't preferred locations (makes the assumption that those people didn't go for TN/GA in the first place).

You went over his head lmao

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:55 pm

PrezRand wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:
somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.


What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?


1. That's unknown, but also seems irrelevant. Maybe you could expand on why this is important when we have overall biglaw numbers? Also, on that note, loved Kronk's post, though I'd argue Biglaw is actually the path of least resistance for T14 students and is not prestigious at all. Going for biglaw is more chasing money and the herd than chasing prestige (that would be more the clerkship route).
2. He didn't say they didn't. Stop getting defensive. But it does show Vanderbilt has a knack for putting people into those markets. That makes sense. Vandy is a regional school that caters to the South. If someone doesn't want to work there, then that's something to consider. And because most applicants do not want to work there, they disregard Vandy as a top flight school.


haha what? i legit am only saying that the statemet "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" doesn't say much...

Original Quesiton Was: WHy does Vandy Suck, their biglaw placement is pretty solid.
Response: Yeah, but they place biglaw into TN/GA (without evidence) and those aren't preferred locations (makes the assumption that those people didn't go for TN/GA in the first place).

You went over his head lmao


But...is this actually that complicated..? haha

Monday

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Monday » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:56 pm

.
Last edited by Monday on Wed May 10, 2017 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:59 pm

Monday wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:
somedeadman wrote:Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.


What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?


1. That's unknown, but also seems irrelevant. Maybe you could expand on why this is important when we have overall biglaw numbers? Also, on that note, loved Kronk's post, though I'd argue Biglaw is actually the path of least resistance for T14 students and is not prestigious at all. Going for biglaw is more chasing money and the herd than chasing prestige (that would be more the clerkship route).
2. He didn't say they didn't. Stop getting defensive. But it does show Vanderbilt has a knack for putting people into those markets. That makes sense. Vandy is a regional school that caters to the South. If someone doesn't want to work there, then that's something to consider. And because most applicants do not want to work there, they disregard Vandy as a top flight school.


haha what? i legit am only saying that the statemet "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" doesn't say much...

Original Quesiton Was: WHy does Vandy Suck, their biglaw placement is pretty solid.
Response: Yeah, but they place biglaw into TN/GA (without evidence) and those aren't preferred locations (makes the assumption that those people didn't go for TN/GA in the first place).

The referent of "a lot of people" is not Vanderbilt students. That refers instead to us (and perhaps other to-be lawyers who've successfully escaped TLS). TN/GA just aren't preferred locations for a lot of people in general, and this is precisely what goldenbear and gimli say. Applicants (again, us, and the majority of whom don't prefer TN/GA) will regard a school that places quite heavily in those locations as less than preferable to schools with better placement at their preferred locations. That those who work in TN/GA actually wanted to work in TN/GA in the first place doesn't say much, when we are discussing the "people" in the question "Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school?" since the "people" is us, the TLS trolls.


But UT deserves T14 status by the exact same defense ?



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