2018 USNWR Rankings Forum

[dabigchina]

Because most top law students want New York.

This is news to me.

NY is the risk averse move if you have meh grades or don't have ties to places with large legal markets.

[texanslimjim]

UT's national reach is fine. The regional employment numbers are misleading. Many of UT's Big Law-competitive students self-select out of non-Texas jobs. It makes sense to see a lot of such students at UT, because many of these students choose UT over T14 schools in the first place precisely because of regional preferences. Also, you probably didn't choose UT over a T14 if you're prestige-obsessed, which means you're probably happy to turn down those V10 New York and DC offers and instead take your Cravath-scale pay at NRF, BB or V&E where your money goes a lot farther under Texas taxes and CoL.

And it's not just the top of the class that has national options. Lots of UT students strike out in Texas but land something in NY/DC. If the "regional school" hypothesis was correct, middling UT Big Law candidates should have better luck landing in Texas than NY, but what I've seen suggests the opposite is true.

The real reason UT isn't and won't be considered a top tier school is the 40% BL+FC number. That number is probably a fair reflection of student quality, considering the LSAT/GPA numbers. The possibility of UT climbing higher seems slim, since it already has to rely on super-cheap tuition, generous scholarships and a shrinking class size just to maintain its position.

[jbagelboy]

UT's national reach is fine. The regional employment numbers are misleading. Many of UT's Big Law-competitive students self-select out of non-Texas jobs. It makes sense to see a lot of such students at UT, because many of these students choose UT over T14 schools in the first place precisely because of regional preferences. Also, you probably didn't choose UT over a T14 if you're prestige-obsessed, which means you're probably happy to turn down those V10 New York and DC offers and instead take your Cravath-scale pay at NRF, BB or V&E where your money goes a lot farther under Texas taxes and CoL.

And it's not just the top of the class that has national options. Lots of UT students strike out in Texas but land something in NY/DC. If the "regional school" hypothesis was correct, middling UT Big Law candidates should have better luck landing in Texas than NY, but what I've seen suggests the opposite is true.

The real reason UT isn't and won't be considered a top tier school is the 40% BL+FC number. That number is probably a fair reflection of student quality, considering the LSAT/GPA numbers. The possibility of UT climbing higher seems slim, since it already has to rely on super-cheap tuition, generous scholarships and a shrinking class size just to maintain its position.

Ya I think this is more a testament to Geoegetown's precipitous fall than UT's "rise"

[PrezRand]

TLS logic: If UT had a 70% biglaw placement, but only in Texas, it would still not be t14

I see where you're coming from, but the T14 was always about national reach as well. UT is a fantastic school but it has less national reach.

Personally, I think national reach is overexaggerated. Most t14s self-select into a certain region. It wouldn't make sense to go to Cornell, Michigan, or Duke over Berkeley if you are from Cali or want to work there. Eventually, the resources at the respected school would simply cater to the region students voluntarily select into. If UT wanted to, I believe it could easily focus more on placing students nationally over time. But yes, UT Law has less national reach.

You're right, and if UT continues to own SXSW I think they have strength, but east coast is beast coast and until they can show they can place well in NYC or DC I don't think they'll be counted among the T14. As much as we're laughing about it, Boalt does show the ability to place in those areas if the applicant wants to. Yes there is obvious self-selection, but until the selection can be proved to be self there will be an asterisk.

This my same point about Cornell placement. Students can go elsewhere, but they choose NYC because it's where most students want to go. I haven't seen proof the UT placement is all about self-selection

Vanderbilt places the same percentage of students to New York as Berkeley. I don't think that's the case.



The poster above me might be right though. The numbers are still low

[hegotmoneyyyyy]

Ok so what's so terrible about Georgetown? Not about the drop but the school itself. Genuinely curious because I just started looking at these forums and there seems to be a lot of hate

[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

UT's national reach is fine. The regional employment numbers are misleading. Many of UT's Big Law-competitive students self-select out of non-Texas jobs. It makes sense to see a lot of such students at UT, because many of these students choose UT over T14 schools in the first place precisely because of regional preferences. Also, you probably didn't choose UT over a T14 if you're prestige-obsessed, which means you're probably happy to turn down those V10 New York and DC offers and instead take your Cravath-scale pay at NRF, BB or V&E where your money goes a lot farther under Texas taxes and CoL.

And it's not just the top of the class that has national options. Lots of UT students strike out in Texas but land something in NY/DC. If the "regional school" hypothesis was correct, middling UT Big Law candidates should have better luck landing in Texas than NY, but what I've seen suggests the opposite is true.

The real reason UT isn't and won't be considered a top tier school is the 40% BL+FC number. That number is probably a fair reflection of student quality, considering the LSAT/GPA numbers. The possibility of UT climbing higher seems slim, since it already has to rely on super-cheap tuition, generous scholarships and a shrinking class size just to maintain its position.

I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen what you are seeing. Can you show us proof of the self selection or the middling students going to NYC/DC? I just don't trust out of hand that all these UT grads are turning down V10 to stay in Texas, yet they have the employment numbers you point to

[TLSModBot]

Because most top law students want New York.

This is news to me.

NY is the risk averse move if you have meh grades or don't have ties to places with large legal markets.

For some choices of firms/practice areas, sure. But it's also THE hot spot for a ton of transactional areas.

What would be the best substitute as a universal ideal location across practice areas? DC? LA? Chicago? Come on.

[emkay625]

TLS logic: If UT had a 70% biglaw placement, but only in Texas, it would still not be t14

I see where you're coming from, but the T14 was always about national reach as well. UT is a fantastic school but it has less national reach.

Exactly. You don't go to UT to get a job in Chicago, but going to UVA could still get you a job in Chicago. UT just has less national reach, so if we are grouping the top schools by national reach, then UT is on the outside looking in. Hence now T13. UT is not a national school. It has good employment rates, but it isn't even a peer to Cornell in national reach. T13 it is.

What, precisely, are you basing this off of? None of my friends at UT who wanted NYC/Chi/DC had problems getting it. Not being a dick, just genuinely curious what data you have that indicates kids from UT can't get jobs outside of Texas.

[NormiesGetOut]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_schoo ... s_Rankings

[mtf612]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_schoo ... s_Rankings

"This category used to be known as the "T14" until Georgetown University Law Center dropped to number 15 in the rankings.[6] The category has been renamed accordingly.[7]"

Cites this TLS thread for [7] - dying.

[UVA2B]

Ok so what's so terrible about Georgetown? Not about the drop but the school itself. Genuinely curious because I just started looking at these forums and there seems to be a lot of hate

1. Terribly massive class sizes
2. Stingy merit scholarships and high COL in DC
3. sub-par placement relative to The Artist Formerly Known as T14 in BL+FC
4. Huge transfer classes traditionally that gummed up employment even further

[PrezRand]

TLS logic: If UT had a 70% biglaw placement, but only in Texas, it would still not be t14

I see where you're coming from, but the T14 was always about national reach as well. UT is a fantastic school but it has less national reach.

Exactly. You don't go to UT to get a job in Chicago, but going to UVA could still get you a job in Chicago. UT just has less national reach, so if we are grouping the top schools by national reach, then UT is on the outside looking in. Hence now T13. UT is not a national school. It has good employment rates, but it isn't even a peer to Cornell in national reach. T13 it is.

What, precisely, are you basing this off of? None of my friends at UT who wanted NYC/Chi/DC had problems getting it. Not being a dick, just genuinely curious what data you have that indicates kids from UT can't get jobs outside of Texas.

I don't think they get how TX has it's own form of nationalism. Most people want to stay here forever.

[candidlatke]

UT's national reach is fine. The regional employment numbers are misleading. Many of UT's Big Law-competitive students self-select out of non-Texas jobs. It makes sense to see a lot of such students at UT, because many of these students choose UT over T14 schools in the first place precisely because of regional preferences. Also, you probably didn't choose UT over a T14 if you're prestige-obsessed, which means you're probably happy to turn down those V10 New York and DC offers and instead take your Cravath-scale pay at NRF, BB or V&E where your money goes a lot farther under Texas taxes and CoL.

And it's not just the top of the class that has national options. Lots of UT students strike out in Texas but land something in NY/DC. If the "regional school" hypothesis was correct, middling UT Big Law candidates should have better luck landing in Texas than NY, but what I've seen suggests the opposite is true.

The real reason UT isn't and won't be considered a top tier school is the 40% BL+FC number. That number is probably a fair reflection of student quality, considering the LSAT/GPA numbers. The possibility of UT climbing higher seems slim, since it already has to rely on super-cheap tuition, generous scholarships and a shrinking class size just to maintain its position.

I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen what you are seeing. Can you show us proof of the self selection or the middling students going to NYC/DC? I just don't trust out of hand that all these UT grads are turning down V10 to stay in Texas, yet they have the employment numbers you point to

anecdotally, a lot of my upperclassmen friends tell me to do the nyc interviewing program if i'm worried about getting a job

i've had multiple people tell me they struck out in normal oci to get jobs at cadwalder/milbank/etc so there's that for whatever it's worth

[BruiseWillis]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_schoo ... s_Rankings

"This category used to be known as the "T14" until Georgetown University Law Center dropped to number 15 in the rankings.[6] The category has been renamed accordingly.[7]"

Cites this TLS thread for [7] - dying.

"respected legal image boards"

[Rigo]

3. sub-par placement relative to The Artist Formerly Known as T14 in BL+FC

[emkay625]

TLS logic: If UT had a 70% biglaw placement, but only in Texas, it would still not be t14

I see where you're coming from, but the T14 was always about national reach as well. UT is a fantastic school but it has less national reach.

Personally, I think national reach is overexaggerated. Most t14s self-select into a certain region. It wouldn't make sense to go to Cornell, Michigan, or Duke over Berkeley if you are from Cali or want to work there. Eventually, the resources at the respected school would simply cater to the region students voluntarily select into. If UT wanted to, I believe it could easily focus more on placing students nationally over time. But yes, UT Law has less national reach.

You're right, and if UT continues to own SXSW I think they have strength, but east coast is beast coast and until they can show they can place well in NYC or DC I don't think they'll be counted among the T14. As much as we're laughing about it, Boalt does show the ability to place in those areas if the applicant wants to. Yes there is obvious self-selection, but until the selection can be proved to be self there will be an asterisk.

This my same point about Cornell placement. Students can go elsewhere, but they choose NYC because it's where most students want to go. I haven't seen proof the UT placement is all about self-selection

It's clear you're not from Texas. People in Texas love Texas. And UT students looking at making 180k in NYC where they'll be stuck in a studio v. 180k in Texas where they can buy a 4 bedroom home choose Texas. We hate the cold. We like large homes. We like free parking and low bar tabs. UT is full of kids who grew up in Texas, and most of us want to stay in Texas. I get why other people would want NYC. I love visiting. Just don't want to live there personally, and the majority of classmates I knew felt similarly. The folks who wanted to go elsewhere went elsewhere.

That being said, I think the T14/T13 distinction is silly. UT and Georgetown are peer schools, along with Vandy, USC and UCLA. That didn't change bc of a rankings flip, won't change back if the rankings flip back next year. UT and Georgetown are not on the same level as the other lower schools in the T13/14, and that won't change for a while.

[lymenheimer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_schoo ... s_Rankings

"This category used to be known as the "T14" until Georgetown University Law Center dropped to number 15 in the rankings.[6] The category has been renamed accordingly.[7]"

Cites this TLS thread for [7] - dying.

"respected legal image boards."
WE DID IT TEAM!

[MKC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_schoo ... s_Rankings

"This category used to be known as the "T14" until Georgetown University Law Center dropped to number 15 in the rankings.[6] The category has been renamed accordingly.[7]"

Cites this TLS thread for [7] - dying.

This is fucking beautiful and I love it, but there's still a bunch of t14/Top 14 references left.

The editing looks like a GULC/UT grad did it. (meaning not up to T13 standards)

[shadowfax]

The rankings seem to show the difficulty of maintaining the quality at large law schools. YS and Chicago have less than 180 or so matriculates whereas Harvard Columbia and Georgetown, schools that dropped in the rankings, are in the top ten of class size. You have a chance at better outcomes at YS but you have a better chance of getting in at Harvard. A school like Michigan has reduced it class size by more than 25% to solidify its place in the rankings, and to adjust to the hiring market. Georgetown has not done so in the same magnitude, if at all. Not all schools have the financial resources to do this. Michigan's endowment is north of $10 billion while Georgetown's is $1.5 billion. Not directly on point but one indication of the financial where-with-all helpful in adjusting to the times.

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Crooked Cornell got it's hand on this leaked information before anyone else did, which is why it went on its very very unfair massacres this cycle! Sad!

[Lawschool305]

Georgetown also makes us wait so long for financial aid/merit info. This is deserved!

[34iplaw]

Crooked Cornell got it's hand on this leaked information before anyone else did, which is why it went on its very very unfair massacres this cycle! Sad!

+180

[Bach-City]

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[Monday]

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[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_schoo ... s_Rankings

"This category used to be known as the "T14" until Georgetown University Law Center dropped to number 15 in the rankings.[6] The category has been renamed accordingly.[7]"

Cites this TLS thread for [7] - dying.

This is fucking beautiful and I love it, but there's still a bunch of t14/Top 14 references left.

The editing looks like a GULC/UT grad did it. (meaning not up to T13 standards)

Changed the other T-14 references I could find. If I've missed anything people can let me know

I thought it was good before, the only T14 ref I saw (which is now T13) was a DQ in wapo. Not sure that should have changed TBH