2018 USNWR Rankings

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:46 pm

BigZuck wrote:Meanwhile, UT alums count FAT STACKS as they rapidly rise up through the partnership ranks.

LOL @ Texas's "flagship" state school. Every once in awhile, UT Law ends up in the T14. What happens next is predictable:

1987: Texas (#11); Following Year: Texas (#16)
2012: Texas (#14); Following Year: Texas (#16)

UT is like the social underling who sneaks into an exclusive club through a side door that was accidentally left open. He orders a drink, starts a couple of awkward conversations, and then gets escorted out by security once they realize that he doesn't belong. It's quite sad.

whysooseriousbiglaw

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby whysooseriousbiglaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:47 pm

UVA2B wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
UVA2B wrote:That's out of self-selection mostly (several family members recently graduated from med school, have spoken to them about the whole match process at length). Many MDs are truly interested in just helping people and developing a connection with their patients. It's not because they couldn't do something else. One family member showed me the average Step 1 scores for the different specialties, and the bar isn't set that high to get into things like general surgery, Emergency Medicine, etc., which make upwards of $200k minimum immediately following residency (and possibly fellowship if they want to specialize further). The most competitive, and therefore highest step 1 scores, are in things with very few residency programs nationally like Derm, ENT, and a few highly specialized like neurosurgery, plastics, and orthopedic surgery.

Again, completely different profession with people having mostly different goals. Most MDs I've spoken to on the issue know what the compensation will be like in their specialty and are comfortable with it because it's what they want to do.


First, general surgery residencies suck big balls. Like they work crazy, insane hours for life. Most med students do not have the temperament or stamina to become surgeons. Since their QOL sucks, that's why people opt out of it. The money (which isn't even that high for the amount of bullshit they put up with) just doesn't compensate for the shitty QOL.

Second, Emergency Medicine also sucks balls. Nobody I know who does it likes it because of the shitty QOL and also low-quality patient time. They spend like 5 minutes with each patient and that's it. They become jaded and miserable. It's like working at the fast food chain of medicine.

The ones that are the most competitive make a shitload of money and may also have high QOL (like dermatology). And those specialized surgeons can make bank, perhaps compensating for the shitty QOL during residency. They also have better QOL after residency than gen surgeons.

So yeah, it looks people pick based on QOL and money....maybe a few go into low paying fields because they want to "help" people, but most likely it's because they did poorly on the Step 1.


I'll see your anecdata and raise you with my own. First, all surgery specialties go through general surgery residency and then subspecialize following that. The life during residency sucks for any surgeon, and what type of surgeon you want to be determines how long that residency will be. Hell, residency in general is like hell because you're working a ton for very little pay with a carrot waiting at the end of the tunnel of high pay and lower hours.

Emergency medicine is largely what you say (again, residency sucks with a ton of fast-paced work), but knowing several EM docs, they chose it specifically for that fast-paced nature. They generally weren't interested in long patient interactions and continuity of care. They wanted a constantly changing population of patients where they have to know a little about a lot of areas, vice knowing a lot about very little within medicine. Plus they like not having call, opting for the shift work of emergency medicine. Going home and not having to respond 24/7 to their patient's needs is de-stressing. Plus once they're done with residency they can work 15-18 eight hour shifts per month and easily break $300k for it. You call that poor QOL? I guess we'll just have to disagree there.


Fair, all I know is certain residencies are better than others (like radiology and anesthesiology aren't bad - maybe 60 hour weeks). Surgery is hell , same with OBGYN. And some specialists like surgeons are on call for life......same with OBGYNs.

The few EM guys I know don't like it, but maybe it's just them. I think it's poor QOL in t he sense that the spend half of the month recovering from their shifts or just bitching and complaining about how they hate their work.

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wiz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby wiz » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:49 pm

whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
Right, but in terms of prestige and caliber of students, there's a HUGE gap between Wake Forest/FSU and John Hopkins/Harvard/Stanford. And I'm sure going to JHU will help at least some bit with residencies.

Also, if MDs do not do well enough on the Step 1, they might not get neurosurgery and get stuck with family med...don't most MDs end up going into family med/IM/psych/peds?

It does help with residencies. And there are obviously way more resident positions available for the lower-tier specialities than neuro/cardio.

But land basically any speciality and you're looking at $300k on average. Do orthopedics, cardiology, anesthesiology, or neuro, and you bank.


At least for anesthesiology, CRNAs are replacing them for like 150k-200k salaries or whatever, instead of paying doctors 300k. Now one doc is supervising like 4-5 nurses instead of hiring 4-5 doctors. Everyone and their mother has to go into a fellowship just to supposedly stay competitive (and who knows how long it will take for nurses to start replacing anesthesiologists in more specialized shit).

For radiology, they are outsourcing that work to India.

Nurses are also making more headway into other areas and of course PAs have already replaced a lot of ER docs and gone into other fields.

If you want to get rich, and you're paying for school on your own, don't go to professional school. It's way too costly, and the opportunity cost is way too high. Plus, there's a shitload of uncertainty in the medical field right now.

Instead, go become a programmer and make like 200k straight out of college at 22 or go work in finance.

This is especially strange for medical students, because they actually majored in something useful and achieved decent grades. The main/only reason to choose law school is because you fucked up in one of those two areas.


Biology isn't useful. It's an unemployable degree.

Just do CS/engineering/accounting/econ/finance. If you want to go to med school, do whatever gives you a high GPA and do a "free As" post-bac.

I was just pimping CS and finance a couple pages ago, so no arguments there. Obviously, people who go to med school (or professional school in general) are looking at more than just pure ROI.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby whysooseriousbiglaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:49 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
Right, but in terms of prestige and caliber of students, there's a HUGE gap between Wake Forest/FSU and John Hopkins/Harvard/Stanford. And I'm sure going to JHU will help at least some bit with residencies.

Also, if MDs do not do well enough on the Step 1, they might not get neurosurgery and get stuck with family med...don't most MDs end up going into family med/IM/psych/peds?

It does help with residencies. And there are obviously way more resident positions available for the lower-tier specialities than neuro/cardio.

But land basically any speciality and you're looking at $300k on average. Do orthopedics, cardiology, anesthesiology, or neuro, and you bank.


At least for anesthesiology, CRNAs are replacing them for like 150k-200k salaries or whatever, instead of paying doctors 300k. Now one doc is supervising like 4-5 nurses instead of hiring 4-5 doctors. Everyone and their mother has to go into a fellowship just to supposedly stay competitive (and who knows how long it will take for nurses to start replacing anesthesiologists in more specialized shit).

For radiology, they are outsourcing that work to India.

Nurses are also making more headway into other areas and of course PAs have already replaced a lot of ER docs and gone into other fields.

If you want to get rich, and you're paying for school on your own, don't go to professional school. It's way too costly, and the opportunity cost is way too high. Plus, there's a shitload of uncertainty in the medical field right now.

Instead, go become a programmer and make like 200k straight out of college at 22 or go work in finance.

This is especially strange for medical students, because they actually majored in something useful and achieved decent grades. The main/only reason to choose law school is because you fucked up in one of those two areas.


Biology isn't useful. It's an unemployable degree.

Just do CS/engineering/accounting/econ/finance.

Figured that people who could maintain good grades in biology could do the same in computer science. "Useful" probably wasn't the right word. Might be better to say it requires some work. And an economics degree isn't useful either.


Biology and CS are completely different. One is 100% memorization; the other is pure logic and rational thinking. They require very different skill sets. I'd argue that CS is much harder for the average person than biology is. If you can pass the NY/CA bar exams, you can probably do decently in Biology if you put in the time. I doubt most could do well in CS though even if they pass the NY/CA bar exams.

As someone who comes from a pure tech family (everyone in my immediate family did CS and I did non-CS STEM at a top quant program), I have to strongly disagree with you on that point. CS is much harder and far more rigorous than Biology....most good programmers I know are just talented in programming/CS...they didn't have to grind to become good.
Last edited by whysooseriousbiglaw on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dabigchina

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby dabigchina » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:51 pm

wiz wrote:I don't really buy that you have all these brilliant YLS-level med students getting completely shut out of med school because they only applied to Harvard, Stanford, and Hopkins. Nobody is that dumb if they can maintain a high sGPA through orgo, biochemistry, pchem, and other upper level science classes and get a 39 MCAT (old scale). I'm sure it happens at the margins, but if you look at the entering class profiles for the above average to good med schools, the students are pretty impressive compared to most law students.

I believe the med school application process is significantly more involved than copy/pasting the same personal statement 13 times.

eta: nvm did some research and most people apply to around 14
Last edited by dabigchina on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

whysooseriousbiglaw

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby whysooseriousbiglaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:52 pm

wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
Right, but in terms of prestige and caliber of students, there's a HUGE gap between Wake Forest/FSU and John Hopkins/Harvard/Stanford. And I'm sure going to JHU will help at least some bit with residencies.

Also, if MDs do not do well enough on the Step 1, they might not get neurosurgery and get stuck with family med...don't most MDs end up going into family med/IM/psych/peds?

It does help with residencies. And there are obviously way more resident positions available for the lower-tier specialities than neuro/cardio.

But land basically any speciality and you're looking at $300k on average. Do orthopedics, cardiology, anesthesiology, or neuro, and you bank.


At least for anesthesiology, CRNAs are replacing them for like 150k-200k salaries or whatever, instead of paying doctors 300k. Now one doc is supervising like 4-5 nurses instead of hiring 4-5 doctors. Everyone and their mother has to go into a fellowship just to supposedly stay competitive (and who knows how long it will take for nurses to start replacing anesthesiologists in more specialized shit).

For radiology, they are outsourcing that work to India.

Nurses are also making more headway into other areas and of course PAs have already replaced a lot of ER docs and gone into other fields.

If you want to get rich, and you're paying for school on your own, don't go to professional school. It's way too costly, and the opportunity cost is way too high. Plus, there's a shitload of uncertainty in the medical field right now.

Instead, go become a programmer and make like 200k straight out of college at 22 or go work in finance.

This is especially strange for medical students, because they actually majored in something useful and achieved decent grades. The main/only reason to choose law school is because you fucked up in one of those two areas.


Biology isn't useful. It's an unemployable degree.

Just do CS/engineering/accounting/econ/finance. If you want to go to med school, do whatever gives you a high GPA and do a "free As" post-bac.

I was just pimping CS and finance a couple pages ago, so no arguments there. Obviously, people who go to med school (or professional school in general) are looking at more than just pure ROI.


Or we're just stupid, lol.

CS/finance > cop/teaching with pensions > professional school.

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wiz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby wiz » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:55 pm

whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby whysooseriousbiglaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:56 pm

wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.


Yes, a lot better. As an example, I looked up my high school teachers' pensions - 60k a year after 25 years. This is a low COL area in flyover. You have to save like 1.5 million to get that kind of returns otherwise.

Let's just say I fucked up.

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wiz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby wiz » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:58 pm

dabigchina wrote:
wiz wrote:I don't really buy that you have all these brilliant YLS-level med students getting completely shut out of med school because they only applied to Harvard, Stanford, and Hopkins. Nobody is that dumb if they can maintain a high sGPA through orgo, biochemistry, pchem, and other upper level science classes and get a 39 MCAT (old scale). I'm sure it happens at the margins, but if you look at the entering class profiles for the above average to good med schools, the students are pretty impressive compared to most law students.

I believe the med school application process is significantly more involved than copy/pasting the same personal statement 13 times.

eta: nvm did some research and most people apply to around 14

Yeah, it's for sure more involved. Having to start early summer, shadow a few hundred hours, get undergrad committee support, get invited to submit secondaries, go to interviews, etc. is fucking exhausting.

Not like law school where you can just show up with a high LSAT and mediocre GPA and still land a T6 before becoming a biglaw zombie.

But as you said, people still apply to a shitload of med schools. You'd be stupid not to. It's no secret how low acceptance rates are.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby 34iplaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:59 pm

wiz wrote:
34iplaw wrote:I think a lot has been discussed since I was last involved, so I'll just add something rather than getting into rehash territory.

My knowledge is basically limited to interactions with med-skewl friends, and some research on SDN about how something like a post-bacc would work. I would probably be in a better position to get into a top med school than a top law school provided I find a strong post-bacc (mainly because I have a non-existant SGPA and my UGPA isn't *that* bad. I'd probably be better off applying to a med-school with a similar percentile MCAT provided a strong post-bacc program.

Anywho, I inquired on the boards because of that chart Wiz linked to. Supposedly, that is far more often the fault of the applicant rather than high scorers being rejected from any med school or barred from attending. The problem is you get high-scorers that only apply to the top three or five programs. They get blocked out, because they did not apply broadly enough. It'd be similar to 3.9x 177s only applying to Y.

I think the key difference with med school and law school is that from any med school, the "worst" outcome tends to be low to mid six figures with almost assured job security. Some people elect into that. Granted, it is far harder to get into *any* med school than *any* law school, and rock-star law outcomes generally eclipse rock-star medicine outcomes. I would agree that most people getting into a T10/T13/T14 etc. law school (prob T20 even) could likely get into a med school provided sufficient effort. After that, I would think it would get a bit dicey TBH. As for outcomes, I don't think STEP scores vary all that much, so a lot of it is more what you want (besides a few super competitive residencies like derm).

All of this with the caveat that direct comparisons are of obviously limited value.

I don't really buy that you have all these brilliant YLS-level med students getting completely shut out of med school because they only applied to Harvard, Stanford, and Hopkins. Nobody is that dumb if they can maintain a high sGPA through orgo, biochemistry, pchem, and other upper level science classes and get a 39 MCAT (old scale).

Low acceptance rates are a function of tons of applicants and small class sizes. Med schools make cuts at the application stage rather than waiting for firms during OCI to ding half the class.

I don't disagree that getting into any med school is all that hard, but you're comparing top law school applicants to bottom of the barrel med school applicants if you say that.

Also, why do you think you could get into a better med school than law school? You said your GPA isn't that bad, so you can get into CLS/Chicago with a high enough LSAT. You can't possibly be that confident in landing Stanford or Harvard Med on the medical school side to top that.


I think some of the comparisons were taken too literally. I am largely going off of what others have told me to a certain extent. It wouldn't shock me necessarily, and I think it has little to do with intelligence rather than some sense of arrogance. Is it really unreasonable to think a lot of 3.9+ and 176+ LSAT people don't even bother applying to anything south of Harvard? (I think it would be dumb, but I don't think it's non-existent.) I don't think this would account for all of it, but, based on what the others said, it's not an insignificant number of those in the upper ranges. Some are then rejected for non-numbers related reason like a lack of medical experience. Experience and other softs are more significant factors in med school admissions AFAIK. 3.9s and 39 MCATs with actual experience aren't getting blocked out of med school at any preceptible rate. I apologize if that comes across as shifting the goal posts. I just didn't really articulate fully enough.

I can get into CLS with a high enough LSAT, but I'm a point shy of that right now :P (granted, it's well within where I was PTing)...I'm not saying Stanford or Harvard Med, but I would say I would have a fantastic shot at a top 10 med provided a strong post bacc (again, based on what I have read) which would be, in my mind, on par with schools like CLS. That's largely due to increased importance of the SGPA (my GPA would be .1-.15 higher than it is now applying to medschools) Then again, comparing med schools to law schools is diffcult, because your med school is far less important. In reality, your residency is far more important than medschool in determining outcome.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:04 pm

wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

My current employer offers both a pension (each year of service is worth 1% of of you average salary during the highest paid three year stretch) and 401k with matching (1% given regardless of participation and full matching for 10%).

If I opt to make a career here I suspect that the 401k will be more valuable, but it will depend on factors that are out of my control. Having a fixed pension is a comfort, one that I will have to consider should an outside offer cross my path.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby whysooseriousbiglaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:05 pm

haus wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

My current employer offers both a pension (each year of service is worth 1% of of you average salary during the highest paid three year stretch) and 401k with matching (1% given regardless of participation and full matching for 10%).

If I opt to make a career here I suspect that the 401k will be more valuable, but it will depend on factors that are out of my control. Having a fixed pension is a comfort, one that I will have to consider should an outside offer cross my path.


Government? That should be the holy grail for law students....no idea why most want biglaw. It's truly awful and life sucking.

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wiz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby wiz » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 pm

whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
haus wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

My current employer offers both a pension (each year of service is worth 1% of of you average salary during the highest paid three year stretch) and 401k with matching (1% given regardless of participation and full matching for 10%).

If I opt to make a career here I suspect that the 401k will be more valuable, but it will depend on factors that are out of my control. Having a fixed pension is a comfort, one that I will have to consider should an outside offer cross my path.


Government? That should be the holy grail for law students....no idea why most want biglaw. It's truly awful and life sucking.

Tbf, a lot of law students do want government or at least to get gov after doing a stint in biglaw to pay off debt.

Also, the average law student doesn't understand shit about basic finance (or has a laughably low risk tolerance) and is drawn like a moth to the flame of the $180,000 shit benefits base.
Last edited by wiz on Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 pm

This thread is just awful. I'm tempted to start posting about affirmative action just so a mod will lock it.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:09 pm

rpupkin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Meanwhile, UT alums count FAT STACKS as they rapidly rise up through the partnership ranks.

LOL @ Texas's "flagship" state school. Every once in awhile, UT Law ends up in the T14. What happens next is predictable:

1987: Texas (#11); Following Year: Texas (#16)
2012: Texas (#14); Following Year: Texas (#16)

UT is like the social underling who sneaks into an exclusive club through a side door that was accidentally left open. He orders a drink, starts a couple of awkward conversations, and then gets escorted out by security once they realize that he doesn't belong. It's quite sad.

I would read this post but I'm too busy counting my NON-STATE INCOME TAXED 180K obtained via my (now, finally, and forever) top law school.

#hookem

whysooseriousbiglaw

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby whysooseriousbiglaw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:10 pm

wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
haus wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

My current employer offers both a pension (each year of service is worth 1% of of you average salary during the highest paid three year stretch) and 401k with matching (1% given regardless of participation and full matching for 10%).

If I opt to make a career here I suspect that the 401k will be more valuable, but it will depend on factors that are out of my control. Having a fixed pension is a comfort, one that I will have to consider should an outside offer cross my path.


Government? That should be the holy grail for law students....no idea why most want biglaw. It's truly awful and life sucking.

Tbf, a lot of law students do want government or at least to get gov after doing a stint in biglaw to pay off debt.

Also, the average law student doesn't understand shit about basic financial/business concepts and are drawn like moths to the flame of the $180,000 shit benefits base.


It is unfortunately hard as fuck to get government after biglaw since they get like 4k applications for one spot, all from biglawyers. It's probably easier to get honors program and start in fed gov straight out since fewer people apply.

And yes, pen$$$ion + reasonable salary and QOL are way more important than higher base salary + wanting to die. Plus fed gov attorneys end up making low six figs anyway....

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:12 pm

whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.


Yes, a lot better. As an example, I looked up my high school teachers' pensions - 60k a year after 25 years. This is a low COL area in flyover. You have to save like 1.5 million to get that kind of returns otherwise.

Let's just say I fucked up.

Okay, so factoring in debt from medical school, with interest, you're talking about a $2 million difference. (But don't you need an MA to teach?) (Do medical programs offer merit scholarships?) You'd need to make $2 million more over 25 years, which doesn't seem that implausible, but I haven't run the math. There's also the fact that working for 25 years sucks. Medical school would give you the flexibility to adjust your lifestyle and retire earlier, without hitting you with an artificial penalty for not reaching some arbitrary duration. And there's the fact that doctors are (presumably) more likely than teachers to marry someone else who makes a lot of money, because they're generally more respected. But, getting back to your main point, are you sure the numbers even work out so that the difference between a doctor's salary and a teacher's is less than $2 million over 25 years?

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:15 pm

BigZuck wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Meanwhile, UT alums count FAT STACKS as they rapidly rise up through the partnership ranks.

LOL @ Texas's "flagship" state school. Every once in awhile, UT Law ends up in the T14. What happens next is predictable:

1987: Texas (#11); Following Year: Texas (#16)
2012: Texas (#14); Following Year: Texas (#16)

UT is like the social underling who sneaks into an exclusive club through a side door that was accidentally left open. He orders a drink, starts a couple of awkward conversations, and then gets escorted out by security once they realize that he doesn't belong. It's quite sad.

I would read this post but I'm too busy counting my NON-STATE INCOME TAXED 180K obtained via my (now, finally, and forever) top law school.

#hookem

I must admit that it's nice when one's regional law school is located in a region with low taxes.

You've got to hand it to schools like University of Florida, University of Texas, and University of Wyoming--their students are willing to give up prestige for lower taxes. Very savvy!

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wiz

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby wiz » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:18 pm

rpupkin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Meanwhile, UT alums count FAT STACKS as they rapidly rise up through the partnership ranks.

LOL @ Texas's "flagship" state school. Every once in awhile, UT Law ends up in the T14. What happens next is predictable:

1987: Texas (#11); Following Year: Texas (#16)
2012: Texas (#14); Following Year: Texas (#16)

UT is like the social underling who sneaks into an exclusive club through a side door that was accidentally left open. He orders a drink, starts a couple of awkward conversations, and then gets escorted out by security once they realize that he doesn't belong. It's quite sad.

I would read this post but I'm too busy counting my NON-STATE INCOME TAXED 180K obtained via my (now, finally, and forever) top law school.

#hookem

I must admit that it's nice when one's regional law school is located in a region with low taxes.

You've got to hand it to the schools like University of Florida, University of Texas, and University of Wyoming--their students are willing to give up prestige for lower taxes. Very savvy!

You: State (and possibly city) income tax owned

UT alum: Itemizing to take generous sales tax deduction

BigZuck

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:20 pm

rpupkin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Meanwhile, UT alums count FAT STACKS as they rapidly rise up through the partnership ranks.

LOL @ Texas's "flagship" state school. Every once in awhile, UT Law ends up in the T14. What happens next is predictable:

1987: Texas (#11); Following Year: Texas (#16)
2012: Texas (#14); Following Year: Texas (#16)

UT is like the social underling who sneaks into an exclusive club through a side door that was accidentally left open. He orders a drink, starts a couple of awkward conversations, and then gets escorted out by security once they realize that he doesn't belong. It's quite sad.

I would read this post but I'm too busy counting my NON-STATE INCOME TAXED 180K obtained via my (now, finally, and forever) top law school.

#hookem

I must admit that it's nice when one's regional law school is located in a region with low taxes.

You've got to hand it to schools like University of Florida, University of Texas, and University of Wyoming--their students are willing to give up prestige for lower taxes. Very savvy!

Think about all those Penn/Cornell kids in NYC big law. They give up prestige, and they get high taxes!

#hookem

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:24 pm

wiz wrote:
rpupkin wrote:You: State (and possibly city) income tax owned

UT alum: Itemizing to take generous sales tax deduction

And when you combine the generous sales tax deduction with the earned income tax credit, the typical UT alum really does get a huge tax windfall.

Hikikomorist

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:25 pm

rpupkin wrote:
wiz wrote:
rpupkin wrote:You: State (and possibly city) income tax owned

UT alum: Itemizing to take generous sales tax deduction

And when you combine the generous sales tax deduction with the earned income tax credit, the typical UT alum really does get a huge tax windfall.

Wouldn't you have to spend pretty recklessly, though, for itemizing to make sense?

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rpupkin

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:30 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
wiz wrote:
rpupkin wrote:You: State (and possibly city) income tax owned

UT alum: Itemizing to take generous sales tax deduction

And when you combine the generous sales tax deduction with the earned income tax credit, the typical UT alum really does get a huge tax windfall.

Wouldn't you have to spend pretty recklessly, though, for itemizing to make sense?

I don't even know what to say about you anymore. After pages of garbage, I make an effort to take this thread in a positive direction—and then this. Uh....mods?

haus

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby haus » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:08 pm

whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
haus wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

My current employer offers both a pension (each year of service is worth 1% of of you average salary during the highest paid three year stretch) and 401k with matching (1% given regardless of participation and full matching for 10%).

If I opt to make a career here I suspect that the 401k will be more valuable, but it will depend on factors that are out of my control. Having a fixed pension is a comfort, one that I will have to consider should an outside offer cross my path.


Government? That should be the holy grail for law students....no idea why most want biglaw. It's truly awful and life sucking.

Tbf, a lot of law students do want government or at least to get gov after doing a stint in biglaw to pay off debt.

Also, the average law student doesn't understand shit about basic financial/business concepts and are drawn like moths to the flame of the $180,000 shit benefits base.


It is unfortunately hard as fuck to get government after biglaw since they get like 4k applications for one spot, all from biglawyers. It's probably easier to get honors program and start in fed gov straight out since fewer people apply.

And yes, pen$$$ion + reasonable salary and QOL are way more important than higher base salary + wanting to die. Plus fed gov attorneys end up making low six figs anyway....

I do work for the federal government (fortunate to work at an agency that has better than usual benefits even for fed gov), but not as an attorney (still a P/T student), although I am fairly senior in InfoSec, so it would be tough for me to move over to a regular attorney position without taking a painful cut in salary. Although it looks like I may be able to find a niche position that would allow me to put my work experience to use with my education, but time will tell...

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bearsfan23

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:15 pm

whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:
haus wrote:
wiz wrote:
whysooseriousbiglaw wrote:How? I've calculated pensions because I thought about going from law to cop/teaching and pensions are worth like 1 to 2 million, at least. Upstate NY cops make six figures in addition to having pensions.....

Unionized construction workers in NYC make six figures. My unionized janitor is going to have a pension.

People really overlook certain fields because of the supposed low base pay, but in reality we're the dumb ones for not figuring out how much pensions are worth.

Are pensions really that much better than matching 401(k)s? I'm not convinced that a small but steady gov pension will outpace a strong 401(k) match.

My current employer offers both a pension (each year of service is worth 1% of of you average salary during the highest paid three year stretch) and 401k with matching (1% given regardless of participation and full matching for 10%).

If I opt to make a career here I suspect that the 401k will be more valuable, but it will depend on factors that are out of my control. Having a fixed pension is a comfort, one that I will have to consider should an outside offer cross my path.


Government? That should be the holy grail for law students....no idea why most want biglaw. It's truly awful and life sucking.


Government jobs with good pensions are literally going extinct. Same thing with union jobs. How on earth do you not know this?



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