2018 USNWR Rankings

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Hikikomorist

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:07 pm

Moneytrees wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:Neither UT nor UCX/Y/Z has significant prestige beyond the state border.


Agreed, but there is a pretty substantial gulf in terms of overall academic strength between some of the top UC's and UT.

There are top UCs other than Berkeley and UCLA? Color me skeptical.

Moneytrees

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:16 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:Neither UT nor UCX/Y/Z has significant prestige beyond the state border.


Agreed, but there is a pretty substantial gulf in terms of overall academic strength between some of the top UC's and UT.

There are top UCs other than Berkeley and UCLA? Color me skeptical.


UCSD and UCSB have low lay prestige, but are top research schools and have good reputations in engineering, medicine,and econ. It's kinda dumb to just shit on the UCs just because they have no lay prestige is the point I'm making.

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Pomeranian

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Pomeranian » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:30 pm

Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , Wash U
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
4.0 , U ILLINOIS
3.9 , USC
3.9 , U TEXAS
3.8 , Notre Dame
3.8 , NYU
3.8 , WILLIAM & MARY
3.8 , UC SAN DIEGO
3.8 , UC DAVIS
3.8 , U WASHINGTON
3.8 , PENN STATE
3.7 , PURDUE
3.6 , Tufts
3.6 , UC IRVINE
3.6 , U FLORIDA
3.6 , OHIO STATE
3.6 , U MARYLAND
3.6 , U MINNESOTA
3.6 , INDIANA U
3.5 , Wake Forest
3.5 , Brandeis
3.5 , Boston College
3.5 , Case Western
3.5 , Rensselaer
3.5 , UC S BARBARA
3.5 , TEXAS A&M
3.5 , U IOWA
3.4 , U Rochester
3.4 , George Washington
3.4 , Boston University
3.4 , U PITTSBURGH
3.4 , U GEORGIA
3.4 , MICHIGAN ST
3.3 , Tulane
3.3 , Syracuse
3.3 , RUTGERS
3.3 , VIRGINIA TECH
3.2 , Lehigh
3.2 , U CONNECTICUT
3.1 , U Miami
3.1 , Pepperdine
3.1 , Fordham
3.1 , CLEMSON
3.1 , U DELAWARE
3.1 , UC S CRUZ
2.9 , SMU
2.9 , BYU
2.8 , Yeshiva
2.7 , Worcester

candidlatke

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby candidlatke » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:39 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
candidlatke wrote:HYPSM
Chicago/Columbia/Penn/top LAC's
Duke/Dartmouth/Cornell/Brown/Georgetown/John Hopkins
Berkeley/UVA/UMich/WUSTL/Vanderbilt/Rice/CMU/Northwestern
UT/UCLA/UNC/the better known flagships/BC/average private schools/etc.
Lesser known state schools like the other UC's/William Mary/etc.

Also, the placement power of the non Berkeley/UCLA UC's is really shitty.
MBB doesn't recruit at any of the UC's besides Berkeley and a tiny amount at UCLA, and the top investment banks are similarly represented (though they take a tiny few. Have seen a few friends from UCSD go to JP Morgan in SF and a few from UCSB as well)
Google/Facebook/Amazon/etc. you have maybe like 10 kids a year going to there per lesser UC.
Apparently UCI reported something like a 15% full time employment rate recently. Friend linked me this: http://www.oir.uci.edu/files/surveys/Se ... esults.pdf
And mind you, UCI's ranked higher than SD at this point on that ranking people are putting so much emphasis on, right below UCSB which are next up from UCLA/Berkeley in case you were wondering.

Also people got weirdly fixated on Duke for some reason. I think most of the people who were talking about Duke were more using it as an example against Berkeley/to bash Berkeley, not to support Duke in itself. Substitute it for Cornell or Dartmouth and I'd argue the same thing.


As much as I hate this conversation, this poster's list best approximates how undergraduate institutions are actually regarded by people with some knowledge. Caltech probably goes with columbia, Chicago, Penn, Amherst, Pomona, Swarthmore, ect., although its reputation would be at the top in STEM. These so-called "tiers" obviously vary a little by subject but this is a decent take.



yeah, i'd probably put caltech around there too. west point somewhere around the second "tier" if that's how you wanna refer to them. there's a lot of schools i forgot too, i'd probably put notre dame/nyu somewhere around bc or maybe a little higher.
while i definitely think there's fluctuation depending on the area that one's from, i think this pretty accurately reflects general desirability/"prestige" in terms of cross admits & yields (for ex. every kid from my high school that went to one of the better privates also got into berkeley but not vice versa and generally chose to matriculate elsewhere if they had the option), and employer perception (using the number of x school's alums at firms/fields regarded as the most selective or "prestigious" as a base so like google/mckinsey/goldman sachs since most of those kids probably had their pick of the best options coming out of their school).

i think it's pretty silly to just follow lists blindly without taking into account actual empirical data like recruitment/employment numbers - ironically a sentiment that i feel like people generally grasp when they're telling people to attend/not attend law schools on here.
Last edited by candidlatke on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KissMyAxe

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby KissMyAxe » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:41 pm

Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .


Why are we still discussing prestige? Everyone, get the hell over it.

Also, you are aware, peer reputation is where college officials are asked to rank schools based on their perception of the schools' overall strength. Once again, it is done by COLLEGE OFFICIALS. It, by definition, is not lay prestige, as it is done by people who are in the know (at least somewhat). Hence schools no layperson would consider being high up on the list. It's not a good general indication of the school's prestige for precisely that reason.

Moneytrees

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:03 pm

KissMyAxe wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .


Why are we still discussing prestige? Everyone, get the hell over it.

Also, you are aware, peer reputation is where college officials are asked to rank schools based on their perception of the schools' overall strength. Once again, it is done by COLLEGE OFFICIALS. It, by definition, is not lay prestige, as it is done by people who are in the know (at least somewhat). Hence schools no layperson would consider being high up on the list. It's not a good general indication of the school's prestige for precisely that reason.


It's a stupid debate, but it's fun to get an idea of which schools people think are prestigious.

Hikikomorist

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Hikikomorist » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:03 pm

candidlatke wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
candidlatke wrote:HYPSM
Chicago/Columbia/Penn/top LAC's
Duke/Dartmouth/Cornell/Brown/Georgetown/John Hopkins
Berkeley/UVA/UMich/WUSTL/Vanderbilt/Rice/CMU/Northwestern
UT/UCLA/UNC/the better known flagships/BC/average private schools/etc.
Lesser known state schools like the other UC's/William Mary/etc.

Also, the placement power of the non Berkeley/UCLA UC's is really shitty.
MBB doesn't recruit at any of the UC's besides Berkeley and a tiny amount at UCLA, and the top investment banks are similarly represented (though they take a tiny few. Have seen a few friends from UCSD go to JP Morgan in SF and a few from UCSB as well)
Google/Facebook/Amazon/etc. you have maybe like 10 kids a year going to there per lesser UC.
Apparently UCI reported something like a 15% full time employment rate recently. Friend linked me this: http://www.oir.uci.edu/files/surveys/Se ... esults.pdf
And mind you, UCI's ranked higher than SD at this point on that ranking people are putting so much emphasis on, right below UCSB which are next up from UCLA/Berkeley in case you were wondering.

Also people got weirdly fixated on Duke for some reason. I think most of the people who were talking about Duke were more using it as an example against Berkeley/to bash Berkeley, not to support Duke in itself. Substitute it for Cornell or Dartmouth and I'd argue the same thing.


As much as I hate this conversation, this poster's list best approximates how undergraduate institutions are actually regarded by people with some knowledge. Caltech probably goes with columbia, Chicago, Penn, Amherst, Pomona, Swarthmore, ect., although its reputation would be at the top in STEM. These so-called "tiers" obviously vary a little by subject but this is a decent take.



yeah, i'd probably put caltech around there too. west point somewhere around the second "tier" if that's how you wanna refer to them. there's a lot of schools i forgot too, i'd probably put notre dame/nyu somewhere around bc or maybe a little higher.
while i definitely think there's fluctuation depending on the area that one's from, i think this pretty accurately reflects general desirability/"prestige" in terms of cross admits & yields (for ex. every kid from my high school that went to one of the better privates also got into berkeley but not vice versa and generally chose to matriculate elsewhere if they had the option), and employer perception (using the number of x school's alums at firms/fields regarded as the most selective or "prestigious" as a base so like google/mckinsey/goldman sachs since most of those kids probably had their pick of the best options coming out of their school).

i think it's pretty silly to just follow lists blindly without taking into account actual empirical data like recruitment/employment numbers - ironically a sentiment that i feel like people generally grasp when they're telling people to attend/not attend law schools on here.

I've addressed this before, but I strongly favor input-based metrics for evaluating UGs and output-based metrics for evaluating graduate schools. A large number of people aren't viewing their choice of college as a set path towards a specific career, and I think this is especially true for some of the more prestigious private schools and LACs generally. There's also more heterogeneity in the type of "successful" outcomes people are seeking, and ignoring this artificially inflates the ranking of schools that embrace more of a trade-school approach. Prestige should mostly be about the quality of the student body and, to a lesser extent, the quality of resources the institution is capable of providing.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:16 am

Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , Wash U
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
4.0 , U ILLINOIS
3.9 , USC
3.9 , U TEXAS
3.8 , Notre Dame
3.8 , NYU
3.8 , WILLIAM & MARY
3.8 , UC SAN DIEGO
3.8 , UC DAVIS
3.8 , U WASHINGTON
3.8 , PENN STATE
3.7 , PURDUE
3.6 , Tufts
3.6 , UC IRVINE
3.6 , U FLORIDA
3.6 , OHIO STATE
3.6 , U MARYLAND
3.6 , U MINNESOTA
3.6 , INDIANA U
3.5 , Wake Forest
3.5 , Brandeis
3.5 , Boston College
3.5 , Case Western
3.5 , Rensselaer
3.5 , UC S BARBARA
3.5 , TEXAS A&M
3.5 , U IOWA
3.4 , U Rochester
3.4 , George Washington
3.4 , Boston University
3.4 , U PITTSBURGH
3.4 , U GEORGIA
3.4 , MICHIGAN ST
3.3 , Tulane
3.3 , Syracuse
3.3 , RUTGERS
3.3 , VIRGINIA TECH
3.2 , Lehigh
3.2 , U CONNECTICUT
3.1 , U Miami
3.1 , Pepperdine
3.1 , Fordham
3.1 , CLEMSON
3.1 , U DELAWARE
3.1 , UC S CRUZ
2.9 , SMU
2.9 , BYU
2.8 , Yeshiva
2.7 , Worcester


I'm not good at counting. Does that say Berkeley is 7 spots above Duke?

So, to recap, Berkeley is consistently above Duke in peer assessments for both UG and law school; Berkeley outranks Duke in both law school and UG rankings both nationally and internationally in non-USNWR rankings (like Times Higher Education); Berkeley consistently outranks Duke in both UG and law school USNWR rankings internationally; Berkeley has on average ranked better than Duke even in the USNWR national law school rankings within the past 10 years; Berkeley's grad programs other than law consistently outrank Duke's in every ranking and usually place top 5; and Berkeley has a reputation for civic engagement, including the free speech movement, while Duke has one for basketball. But Duke is a better school? No. Duke is more prestigious generally? No. Duke has better lay prestige? There isn't direct evidence either way but indirect evidence as summed up above says no again.

And in line with how I saw the prestige of universities generally, before it got redirected more specifically to lay prestige, here are the peer assessments for UG:

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY

Literally the same group of schools I paired together. But God forbid Berkeley is a public school and isn't as wealthy. The horror!

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proteinshake

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby proteinshake » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:35 am

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , Wash U
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
4.0 , U ILLINOIS
3.9 , USC
3.9 , U TEXAS
3.8 , Notre Dame
3.8 , NYU
3.8 , WILLIAM & MARY
3.8 , UC SAN DIEGO
3.8 , UC DAVIS
3.8 , U WASHINGTON
3.8 , PENN STATE
3.7 , PURDUE
3.6 , Tufts
3.6 , UC IRVINE
3.6 , U FLORIDA
3.6 , OHIO STATE
3.6 , U MARYLAND
3.6 , U MINNESOTA
3.6 , INDIANA U
3.5 , Wake Forest
3.5 , Brandeis
3.5 , Boston College
3.5 , Case Western
3.5 , Rensselaer
3.5 , UC S BARBARA
3.5 , TEXAS A&M
3.5 , U IOWA
3.4 , U Rochester
3.4 , George Washington
3.4 , Boston University
3.4 , U PITTSBURGH
3.4 , U GEORGIA
3.4 , MICHIGAN ST
3.3 , Tulane
3.3 , Syracuse
3.3 , RUTGERS
3.3 , VIRGINIA TECH
3.2 , Lehigh
3.2 , U CONNECTICUT
3.1 , U Miami
3.1 , Pepperdine
3.1 , Fordham
3.1 , CLEMSON
3.1 , U DELAWARE
3.1 , UC S CRUZ
2.9 , SMU
2.9 , BYU
2.8 , Yeshiva
2.7 , Worcester


I'm not good at counting. Does that say Berkeley is 7 spots above Duke?

So, to recap, Berkeley is consistently above Duke in peer assessments for both UG and law school; Berkeley outranks Duke in both law school and UG rankings both nationally and internationally in non-USNWR rankings (like Times Higher Education); Berkeley consistently outranks Duke in both UG and law school USNWR rankings internationally; Berkeley has on average ranked better than Duke even in the USNWR national law school rankings within the past 10 years; Berkeley's grad programs other than law consistently outrank Duke's in every ranking and usually place top 5; and Berkeley has a reputation for civic engagement, including the free speech movement, while Duke has one for basketball. But Duke is a better school? No. Duke is more prestigious generally? No. Duke has better lay prestige? There isn't direct evidence either way but indirect evidence as summed up above says no again.

And in line with how I saw the prestige of universities generally, before it got redirected more specifically to lay prestige, here are the peer assessments for UG:

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY

Literally the same group of schools I paired together. But God forbid Berkeley is a public school and isn't as wealthy. The horror!

lol. a lot of this is true if you compare Berkley and Columbia, but I don't think that means Berkeley > Columbia. and the civic engagement and basketball point was just stupid. and I'm pretty certain Duke has way more lay prestige.

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jbagelboy

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:48 am

This is a way better reflection of eliteness as a matter of selectivity and exclusivity than the reputation scores, which, like law school, are fundamentally arbitrary:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... tance-rate

Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Yale, Chicago. All under 8% admitted. Add Brown, Pomona, Caltech, UPenn. All under 10% admitted. That's why they are in a tier above. Berkeley? You have to scroll down that list pretty far. 15% doesn't look that far away but its inflated by the fact that every graduating college senior in the largest state in the union applies. (For the same reason I would argue Amherst ect have slightly higher acceptance rates because fewer people apply, not because it's numerically easier to gain admission.)

Berkeley is the best public university in the country, probably in the world. It's an unbelievable place. But it doesn't have the cache of exclusivity that you guys are going on about. (Not that it matters: a Cal grad can do anything.)

**sorry so many typos, on phone at gym
Last edited by jbagelboy on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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jbagelboy

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:52 am

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , Wash U
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
4.0 , U ILLINOIS
3.9 , USC
3.9 , U TEXAS
3.8 , Notre Dame
3.8 , NYU
3.8 , WILLIAM & MARY
3.8 , UC SAN DIEGO
3.8 , UC DAVIS
3.8 , U WASHINGTON
3.8 , PENN STATE
3.7 , PURDUE
3.6 , Tufts
3.6 , UC IRVINE
3.6 , U FLORIDA
3.6 , OHIO STATE
3.6 , U MARYLAND
3.6 , U MINNESOTA
3.6 , INDIANA U
3.5 , Wake Forest
3.5 , Brandeis
3.5 , Boston College
3.5 , Case Western
3.5 , Rensselaer
3.5 , UC S BARBARA
3.5 , TEXAS A&M
3.5 , U IOWA
3.4 , U Rochester
3.4 , George Washington
3.4 , Boston University
3.4 , U PITTSBURGH
3.4 , U GEORGIA
3.4 , MICHIGAN ST
3.3 , Tulane
3.3 , Syracuse
3.3 , RUTGERS
3.3 , VIRGINIA TECH
3.2 , Lehigh
3.2 , U CONNECTICUT
3.1 , U Miami
3.1 , Pepperdine
3.1 , Fordham
3.1 , CLEMSON
3.1 , U DELAWARE
3.1 , UC S CRUZ
2.9 , SMU
2.9 , BYU
2.8 , Yeshiva
2.7 , Worcester


I'm not good at counting. Does that say Berkeley is 7 spots above Duke?

So, to recap, Berkeley is consistently above Duke in peer assessments for both UG and law school; Berkeley outranks Duke in both law school and UG rankings both nationally and internationally in non-USNWR rankings (like Times Higher Education); Berkeley consistently outranks Duke in both UG and law school USNWR rankings internationally; Berkeley has on average ranked better than Duke even in the USNWR national law school rankings within the past 10 years; Berkeley's grad programs other than law consistently outrank Duke's in every ranking and usually place top 5; and Berkeley has a reputation for civic engagement, including the free speech movement, while Duke has one for basketball. But Duke is a better school? No. Duke is more prestigious generally? No. Duke has better lay prestige? There isn't direct evidence either way but indirect evidence as summed up above says no again.

And in line with how I saw the prestige of universities generally, before it got redirected more specifically to lay prestige, here are the peer assessments for UG:

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY

Literally the same group of schools I paired together. But God forbid Berkeley is a public school and isn't as wealthy. The horror!



See my post above. Very little of what you discussed matters as a measure of prestige read as exclusivity. UC Berkeley is a more famous, and certainly more important academic institution than Duke. But its student body is not as universally academically superior. Not that this matters in the least for law or graduate school, where selectivity is meaningless and outputs/research/cost/institutional support are far more valuable.

Moneytrees

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:35 am

jbagelboy wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , Wash U
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
4.0 , U ILLINOIS
3.9 , USC
3.9 , U TEXAS
3.8 , Notre Dame
3.8 , NYU
3.8 , WILLIAM & MARY
3.8 , UC SAN DIEGO
3.8 , UC DAVIS
3.8 , U WASHINGTON
3.8 , PENN STATE
3.7 , PURDUE
3.6 , Tufts
3.6 , UC IRVINE
3.6 , U FLORIDA
3.6 , OHIO STATE
3.6 , U MARYLAND
3.6 , U MINNESOTA
3.6 , INDIANA U
3.5 , Wake Forest
3.5 , Brandeis
3.5 , Boston College
3.5 , Case Western
3.5 , Rensselaer
3.5 , UC S BARBARA
3.5 , TEXAS A&M
3.5 , U IOWA
3.4 , U Rochester
3.4 , George Washington
3.4 , Boston University
3.4 , U PITTSBURGH
3.4 , U GEORGIA
3.4 , MICHIGAN ST
3.3 , Tulane
3.3 , Syracuse
3.3 , RUTGERS
3.3 , VIRGINIA TECH
3.2 , Lehigh
3.2 , U CONNECTICUT
3.1 , U Miami
3.1 , Pepperdine
3.1 , Fordham
3.1 , CLEMSON
3.1 , U DELAWARE
3.1 , UC S CRUZ
2.9 , SMU
2.9 , BYU
2.8 , Yeshiva
2.7 , Worcester


I'm not good at counting. Does that say Berkeley is 7 spots above Duke?

So, to recap, Berkeley is consistently above Duke in peer assessments for both UG and law school; Berkeley outranks Duke in both law school and UG rankings both nationally and internationally in non-USNWR rankings (like Times Higher Education); Berkeley consistently outranks Duke in both UG and law school USNWR rankings internationally; Berkeley has on average ranked better than Duke even in the USNWR national law school rankings within the past 10 years; Berkeley's grad programs other than law consistently outrank Duke's in every ranking and usually place top 5; and Berkeley has a reputation for civic engagement, including the free speech movement, while Duke has one for basketball. But Duke is a better school? No. Duke is more prestigious generally? No. Duke has better lay prestige? There isn't direct evidence either way but indirect evidence as summed up above says no again.

And in line with how I saw the prestige of universities generally, before it got redirected more specifically to lay prestige, here are the peer assessments for UG:

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY

Literally the same group of schools I paired together. But God forbid Berkeley is a public school and isn't as wealthy. The horror!



See my post above. Very little of what you discussed matters as a measure of prestige read as exclusivity. UC Berkeley is a more famous, and certainly more important academic institution than Duke. But its student body is not as universally academically superior. Not that this matters in the least for law or graduate school, where selectivity is meaningless and outputs/research/cost/institutional support are far more valuable.


It's so weird that there are 30 pages worth of UC Berkeley vs. Duke.

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Pomeranian

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:42 am

If UC Berkeley and UCSF were combined, it would arguably be the best university in the world.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:45 am

Pomeranian wrote:If UC Berkeley and UCSF were combined, it would arguably be the best university in the world.


Isnt UCSF only a med school?

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:45 am

Moneytrees wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:If UC Berkeley and UCSF were combined, it would arguably be the best university in the world.


Isnt UCSF only a med school?


Yes, and they get a ton of research funding every year. Not sure why UC system didn't just make UCSF a part of Berkeley. It's very prestigious.
Last edited by Pomeranian on Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:48 am

Pomeranian wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:If UC Berkeley and UCSF were combined, it would arguably be the best university in the world.


Isnt UCSF only a med school?


Yes, not sure why UC system didn't just make UCSF a part of Berkeley. It's very prestigious.


Yeah it is but it's also not in Berkeley lol.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby KissMyAxe » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:14 am

Moneytrees wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .


Why are we still discussing prestige? Everyone, get the hell over it.

Also, you are aware, peer reputation is where college officials are asked to rank schools based on their perception of the schools' overall strength. Once again, it is done by COLLEGE OFFICIALS. It, by definition, is not lay prestige, as it is done by people who are in the know (at least somewhat). Hence schools no layperson would consider being high up on the list. It's not a good general indication of the school's prestige for precisely that reason.


It's a stupid debate, but it's fun to get an idea of which schools people think are prestigious.


Not my idea of fun, especially since people here are delusional about what has lay prestige, and are citing heads of colleges' opinions as what the "common-folk" think.

However, I do find this featherbrained brannigan between the bumpkins of Duke and Berkeley very quaint. Though, to be fair, two of our best scullery maids graduated from each of their law schools.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:27 am

KissMyAxe wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .


Why are we still discussing prestige? Everyone, get the hell over it.

Also, you are aware, peer reputation is where college officials are asked to rank schools based on their perception of the schools' overall strength. Once again, it is done by COLLEGE OFFICIALS. It, by definition, is not lay prestige, as it is done by people who are in the know (at least somewhat). Hence schools no layperson would consider being high up on the list. It's not a good general indication of the school's prestige for precisely that reason.


It's a stupid debate, but it's fun to get an idea of which schools people think are prestigious.


Not my idea of fun, especially since people here are delusional about what has lay prestige, and are citing heads of colleges' opinions as what the "common-folk" think.

However, I do find this featherbrained brannigan between the bumpkins of Duke and Berkeley very quaint. Though, to be fair, two of our best scullery maids graduated from each of their law schools.


O_o

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby dabigchina » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:28 am

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:

So, to recap, Berkeley is consistently above Duke in peer assessments for both UG and law school; Berkeley outranks Duke in both law school and UG rankings both nationally and internationally in non-USNWR rankings (like Times Higher Education); Berkeley consistently outranks Duke in both UG and law school USNWR rankings internationally; Berkeley has on average ranked better than Duke even in the USNWR national law school rankings within the past 10 years; Berkeley's grad programs other than law consistently outrank Duke's in every ranking and usually place top 5; and Berkeley has a reputation for civic engagement, including the free speech movement, while Duke has one for basketball. But Duke is a better school? No. Duke is more prestigious generally? No. Duke has better lay prestige? There isn't direct evidence either way but indirect evidence as summed up above says no again.

And in line with how I saw the prestige of universities generally, before it got redirected more specifically to lay prestige, here are the peer assessments for UG:

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY

Literally the same group of schools I paired together. But God forbid Berkeley is a public school and isn't as wealthy. The horror!


We get it. You went to Cal. Move on with your life.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby GOODWORKSTE » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:29 am

Moneytrees wrote:My list would be:

Tier 1: PSYCHM
Tier 2: Columbia, Chicago, Duke, Penn
Tier 3: Dartmouth, Cornell, Vanderbilt, Brown, Rice, Notre Dame, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Georgetown, WUSTL, UC Berkeley
Tier 3: NYU, Emory, Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, UVA, Michigan, Boston College, USC, UCLA, UNC
Tier 4 (basically no national recognition, but well known in some circles): Tulane, William and Mary, top University of California campuses, Brandeis, BU.


Emory is tied with Georgetown..

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:33 am

Pomeranian wrote:Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke

LOL @ Duke. Berkeley is closer to Harvard and Princeton than to Duke, which seems right. Duke even lags behind lowly Cornell. Pathetic.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Wild Card » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:39 am

This is Top-Law-Schools, not CollegeConfidential.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:44 am

Wild Card wrote:This is Top-Law-Schools, not CollegeConfidential.


The death of the T14 has shattered TLS's identity. We don't know where to go from here.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:52 am

Haven't read the thread but just out of curiosity would you guys say Duke or Berkeley is stronger in terms of undergraduate reputation?

Edit: That's Cal-Berkeley, to be clear.

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Re: 2018 USNWR Rankings

Postby Wild Card » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:53 am

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2017/03/2018-us-news-peer-reputation-rankings-v-overall-rankings.html

2018 U.S. News Law School Peer Reputation Rankings

4.8 Yale
4.8 Stanford
4.8 Harvard
4.6 Chicago
4.6 Columbia
4.5 NYU
4.4 Michigan
4.4 Virginia
4.4 UC-Berkeley
4.3 Penn
4.2 Duke
4.2 Northwestern
4.2 Cornell
4.1 Texas
4.1 Georgetown
3.9 UCLA
3.9 Vanderbilt
...

T-14+ Peer Assessment Ranking, 10-year Average (2009-2018)

4.81 Yale
4.81 Harvard
4.76 Stanford
4.64 Columbia
4.62 Chicago
4.49 NYU
4.46 Berkeley
4.45 Michigan
4.36 Virginia
4.34 Pennsylvania
4.21 Duke
4.19 Cornell
4.14 Georgetown
4.10 Northwestern
4.07 Texas
3.95 UCLA
3.84 Vanderbilt



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