jbagelboy wrote: wiz wrote: Hikikomorist wrote: wiz wrote: Hikikomorist wrote: wiz wrote:
Tbf, it's probably a lot harder to get a good job with a lib arts degree than it is to with a Wharton undergrad or MIT engineering or Berkeley CS degree, so it's not surprising that almost everybody who goes to those schools ends up applying to grad school. I wouldn't say that's necessarily a better outcome than become a banker/software engineer, though.
Berkeley is also fucking huge.
Other large elite schools did well. No excuses for Berkeley.
Yeah, I don't think Berkeley is elite for undergrad anyway, so we don't have any beef there
I meant more that LACs are overrated on that list relative to other top schools
Self selection: Why go to grad school when you can make $150k straight out of undergrad doing investment banking or CS?
That's why the Forbes ranking is the perfect counterpart.
I haven't looked into the methodology, but Forbes rankings still look too heavy on LACs
Also, lol at Notre Dame and Tufts T10 national universities (and BC #11)
Williams and Pomona have each been #1 and #2 in Forbes over the past couple years. I don't think its overrated, just weighs things differently. It has its flaws. But they aren't as you state. Its a reflection of the value add per student as opposed to the institutional branding of large research universities that factors into US News. Forbes considers both graduate school and private sector employment. You're making a separate value judgment about earning power that's also subjective and arguably less meritorious since it ignores the long-term income advantages of graduate degrees. Going into CS or finance immediately after college is high earning in the short term but not the ultimate goal or best outcome for persons interested in other paths like academia, licensure based-professions like medicine and law, or those that enter public service or start companies. It's not objectively better for the person or the world to go work for a bank, nor is it more desirable. For example, WASP schools outperform many large universities in per capita Fulbrights, Watsons, Rhodes scholars, and other selective fellowships.
Forbes law rankings:
Forbes business school rankings:
And at the undergrad level: Do you genuinely believe that Williams is better than Harvard or that Pomona is better than Columbia or that Haverford is better than Caltech or that Tufts/BC are better than Duke/Rice?
All three sets of rankings seem off.
Technically, no set of rankings is ever wrong since they're just weighting different factors, although Forbes seems to be particularly extreme with whatever system it's using. They're measuring something else, but I'm not confident that what they're measuring is actually desirable or even in line with what they purport to be measuring.
And I'm not trying to say that making more money is objectively better than making less money (or better for the world), but I do think that MBB, bulge brackets, top CS jobs, etc. are some of the more desirable employment outcomes available for someone looking to join the workforce straight out of undergrad. At minimum, they are selective, which should count for something, and aren't available to your average student from Big State U.
That's not to say that those jobs are superior to pursuing a PhD or going to med school or following your dreams in public service or doing whatever it is you want to do. I mean, hey, I was dumb enough to go to law school.
I just think that some of the softer outcomes are at best more difficult to quantify and at worst window dressing (liberal arts major strikeout who needs to go to grad school).
Fwiw, I would expect top LACs to do very well on a per capita basis since I do buy into the "better profs who are more interested in teaching than research" kool aid. There's probably something to be said for smaller class sizes and a more tightly-knit community. Also, going back to the initial point of selection bias: I would assume that most students who self select into one of those schools would be more interested in fellowships or grad school or academia to begin with than your average Wharton undergrad econ major.