Stop Telling People to Retake

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cavalier1138

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:39 pm

sethnoorzad wrote:Lol I'm gonna side with the minority and say that OP makes a good point. "Retake" is a rote answer that doesn't really address anything and it gets annoying.


Aside from the odd snarky comment, very few people actually just say "retake" without a further explanation. The OP, in particular, was given lots of specific feedback about their school options in their prior thread. And the fact is that retaking the LSAT is almost always the only thing that someone can do to improve their chances at getting in to a given school. So even if you think it's a rote answer, it absolutely addresses something.

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UVA2B

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:40 pm

sethnoorzad wrote:Lol I'm gonna side with the minority and say that OP makes a good point. "Retake" is a rote answer that doesn't really address anything and it gets annoying.


The simple "retake" response is used widely because it's pretty likely the exact question (or damn near close to it) has already been answered here ad nauseum. So while the person asking the question may see their question as unique, it's been answered before in some form. If you'd prefer "use search function, been answered before. Retake." that's fine, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue nearly as well.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby whodareswins » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:48 pm

To me, it's simple: "retake" is TCR if, and only if, the original score is not conducive to the results the applicant desires. For example, if you know that the only school you'd attend is Drake because you live in Iowa and are unable to move under any circumstance, then a score of 165 is adequate since it will likely net you the Opperman (full ride plus 30k stipend). To tell this person to retake would be silly since there is not an outcome that could be more favorable to them, even with a 180 lsat. If we replace Drake with Duke, then retake is the only answer for this 165 applicant.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:51 pm

chicagoburger wrote:When people ask for serious advice here, the first answer they should expect is "Retake", which is very sad. Many of these seasoned TLSers don't understand that "Retake" is not an option to most of the people, nor should it.

First, the opportunity cost of retaking the test is huge. Spending one extra year of your life on this freaking stupid test should only be considered when you don't have a life, a real life.

Secondly, people know what they want and what can be reached. If I got only 3.4 gpa and I want to stay in Chicago, pass the bar, why do I need to retake to shoot for UChicago?

Thirdly, LSAT is curved. Only 30% people can get above 160. You advise all those 70% below to retake for a year. They will score differently, but most of them will be below 160 again. The "retake" suggestion simply won't work for most of the applicants mathematically speaking.

Lastly, if the person wants to ask a question regarding a school choice, we should assume that person has done the homework and covered the retake option.

So next time if you see any legit questions, please don't reply "retake".


Well I don't think the curve thing is true but for the rest of it, YESSS it's about time someone decided to stick up for what's right! All law students deserve a friendly environment where they could discuss their career with like minded people, not just T18 people! These people are in a bubble three quarters of test takers are below 158 and most 1L's are not going in situations these people would approve, this can be proven with the 509's. The kids on here are likely to be ones to benifit from "retaking" even though massive increases are pretty unlikely and thus think if they can do it, everyone can and should as well and give up a year of their life to do so. I've also found it perplexing how one could view not working a job one doesn't like as "opportunity cost" but not skipping a year and I've glad you've brought it up. These threads are a great resource and even the retake people have some good insights(on debt and employment) but they take it to far and are incredibly condescending to people(one guy was like "here's your new life plan") who probably aren't ignorant. If we've got 2 something GPA and an LSAT in the 140's you might have a point telling someone to retake same if they have time in UG left to retake(after all, why not) but encouraging someone to take a year off to hold out for better options that they are still likely not to get(again among the general population, huge LSAT increases aren't common) just seems like you are pushing your situation on them. Same with "big law", so many times people don't even mention big law when asking back about a school and people are like "well the school places this many people in big law, so it's a bad decision. What's sad is this discourages people from lower ranked schools from taking advantage of these resources.

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stego

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby stego » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:51 pm

whodareswins wrote:To me, it's simple: "retake" is TCR if, and only if, the original score is not conducive to the results the applicant desires. For example, if you know that the only school you'd attend is Drake because you live in Iowa and are unable to move under any circumstance, then a score of 165 is adequate since it will likely net you the Opperman (full ride plus 30k stipend). To tell this person to retake would be silly since there is not an outcome that could be more favorable to them, even with a 180 lsat. If we replace Drake with Duke, then retake is the only answer for this 165 applicant.

if you can't move away from Iowa why is going to Drake the best outcome

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Colonel_funkadunk

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Colonel_funkadunk » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:57 pm

a school that rejected me a few years ago offered me almost full tuition this cycle bc of a retake, and if i wasnt dumb i could probably push the lsat even higher
pretty much okay w that constant advice from this site

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Ferrisjso

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:03 pm

Colonel_funkadunk wrote:a school that rejected me a few years ago offered me almost full tuition this cycle bc of a retake, and if i wasnt dumb i could probably push the lsat even higher
pretty much okay w that constant advice from this site


The advice has the POTENTIAL to be great advice(and for you it was), but statistically it isn't. The people who were helped by that advice are going to be far more likely to sing and dance about it(and do constantly) than those who did not get significant improvements. Again it's dumb not to use your three takes during UG(even then if you're satisfied you're satisfied) but once you're putting off your life a year or two to retake a test where drastic improvement is unlikely it really doesn't make sense. I guess in the opinions of many the potential award outweighs the negative but it's far from a no brainer like people on here advertise on here.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:07 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:Same with "big law", so many times people don't even mention big law when asking back about a school and people are like "well the school places this many people in big law, so it's a bad decision. What's sad is this discourages people from lower ranked schools from taking advantage of these resources.

People don't say this unless someone says that they want a job in big law, but is looking at schools with poor placement in biglaw. Which happens here quite a bit.

I went to a lower-ranked school. I don't want to scare anyone away from the resources TLS can offer. But I also want people to make absolutely, completely informed decisions.

Also stop focusing on retaking during undergrad. There are lots of people making the decision to go to law school at all times of their life. You don't only get a shot at the LSAT during UG.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Colonel_funkadunk » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:11 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
Colonel_funkadunk wrote:a school that rejected me a few years ago offered me almost full tuition this cycle bc of a retake, and if i wasnt dumb i could probably push the lsat even higher
pretty much okay w that constant advice from this site


The advice has the POTENTIAL to be great advice(and for you it was), but statistically it isn't. The people who were helped by that advice are going to be far more likely to sing and dance about it(and do constantly) than those who did not get significant improvements. Again it's dumb not to use your three takes during UG(even then if you're satisfied you're satisfied) but once you're putting off your life a year or two to retake a test where drastic improvement is unlikely it really doesn't make sense. I guess in the opinions of many the potential award outweighs the negative but it's far from a no brainer like people on here advertise on here.


put your life on hold to retake? i would hope ppl are working while taking a year or two off, which in itself that work experience is valuable to employer

also drastic improvements aren't even necessary. 1 point can make a large difference in scholarships, rejections, etc

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stego

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby stego » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:12 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Same with "big law", so many times people don't even mention big law when asking back about a school and people are like "well the school places this many people in big law, so it's a bad decision. What's sad is this discourages people from lower ranked schools from taking advantage of these resources.

People don't say this unless someone says that they want a job in big law, but is looking at schools with poor placement in biglaw. Which happens here quite a bit.

I went to a lower-ranked school. I don't want to scare anyone away from the resources TLS can offer. But I also want people to make absolutely, completely informed decisions.

Also stop focusing on retaking during undergrad. There are lots of people making the decision to go to law school at all times of their life. You don't only get a shot at the LSAT during UG.

Tbf i feel like people here sometimes assume big law if an applicant is considering an option that would leave them $150,000 in debt since it's hard to pay that down on a non-big law salary.

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Colonel_funkadunk

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Colonel_funkadunk » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:13 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
sethnoorzad wrote:Lol I'm gonna side with the minority and say that OP makes a good point. "Retake" is a rote answer that doesn't really address anything and it gets annoying.


Aside from the odd snarky comment, very few people actually just say "retake" without a further explanation. The OP, in particular, was given lots of specific feedback about their school options in their prior thread. And the fact is that retaking the LSAT is almost always the only thing that someone can do to improve their chances at getting in to a given school. So even if you think it's a rote answer, it absolutely addresses something.


also im gonna side w this. over the last 5 years on here ppl saying retake with no exceptions or conditions or further explanation has decreased dramatically

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:15 pm

stego wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Same with "big law", so many times people don't even mention big law when asking back about a school and people are like "well the school places this many people in big law, so it's a bad decision. What's sad is this discourages people from lower ranked schools from taking advantage of these resources.

People don't say this unless someone says that they want a job in big law, but is looking at schools with poor placement in biglaw. Which happens here quite a bit.

I went to a lower-ranked school. I don't want to scare anyone away from the resources TLS can offer. But I also want people to make absolutely, completely informed decisions.

Also stop focusing on retaking during undergrad. There are lots of people making the decision to go to law school at all times of their life. You don't only get a shot at the LSAT during UG.

Tbf i feel like people here sometimes assume big law if an applicant is considering an option that would leave them $150,000 in debt since it's hard to pay that down on a non-big law salary.

I think that goes back to the issue of making sure people are informed, though. If they're going to go $150k into debt they should have a plan for paying for it.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:24 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
Colonel_funkadunk wrote:a school that rejected me a few years ago offered me almost full tuition this cycle bc of a retake, and if i wasnt dumb i could probably push the lsat even higher
pretty much okay w that constant advice from this site


The advice has the POTENTIAL to be great advice(and for you it was), but statistically it isn't. The people who were helped by that advice are going to be far more likely to sing and dance about it(and do constantly) than those who did not get significant improvements. Again it's dumb not to use your three takes during UG(even then if you're satisfied you're satisfied) but once you're putting off your life a year or two to retake a test where drastic improvement is unlikely it really doesn't make sense. I guess in the opinions of many the potential award outweighs the negative but it's far from a no brainer like people on here advertise on here.


Making financially risky decisions is not the same as advising others to do so. You hyperbolize constantly how one-sided the advice is here, and it's beyond irritating. The reason people generally give more risk-averse advice is because it's the financially prudent thing to do. Nowhere here do you find well-intentioned people advocating for T14 on scholarship, T18 (that's a new one) for free, and everything else is garbage. There is consistently strong advice for people going to regional law schools to minimize cost (via scholarships, living at home, etc.) so as to give themselves manageable debt when they have, at least initially, very low prospects of earning enough to pay off that debt. That isn't to say a huge portion of the law school population is doing this, but if someone is looking to pay $150k for a 10% (or 25%, or 35% or whatever you have when you include jobs that get JD required PSLF jobs), even as a stranger on a message board, a financially responsible advisor would caution them against doing it. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but just that it's financially inadvisable to do so.

Not everyone going to regionals are making financially dangerous decisions, but if you see one about to make on, do you really feel good telling them, "good luck, follow your dreams!" It might feel good to do so, but the weight of statistics and anecdata suggests these people are much more likely to regret that decision.

Most commenters here are just as well-intentioned as you are in hyping what is considered a "good option" for someone considering law school, but they're advising against making decisions as reckless, and their aversion for risk arguably needs to be heard more than your confirmation bias, because if you're forced to consider all the potential ramifications of these decisions, aren't you more likely to cautiously approach that decision.

Retake is good advice for a really good number of people who come here for advice. How many of them have already proven they've maxed their LSAT abilities/outcomes? They happen, but they're rare. And when those unique individuals come around, they generally get very thoughtful, reasoned advice.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:31 pm

BigZuck wrote:I don't get the handwringing over TLS not just telling people what they want to hear and/or giving bad advice about law school admissions when literally every other avenue for advice (parents, pre-law advisors, adcoms, great aunts) will give you exactly that. HEAVEN FORBID one website tell you that your plan isn't a good one and you need to approach things in a different way.

Also the "But, but a year is toooooo long! You don't get it" thing doesn't work when the people dolling out that advice were retaking/reapplying in their late 20s, working crappy jobs just to scrape by, etc.

BUMP

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:35 pm

At this point I'm convinced Ferrisjso is an ABA shill planted to propagate a pro-people looking at 509s agenda

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Ferrisjso

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:43 pm

BigZuck wrote:At this point I'm convinced Ferrisjso is an ABA shill planted to propagate a pro-people looking at 509s agenda


Love you to;)

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:12 pm

Actually I'm going to change my answer. "Don't go to law school" is really the better advice and should probably replace "retake" as the go to.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:14 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:All law students deserve a friendly environment where they could discuss their career with like minded people, not just T18 people!


As mentioned, you already get plenty of friendly feedback (probably too much) from the relatives and pre-law counselors telling you, "Sure, go to Florida Coastal for $150k. You're smart, so you'll succeed wherever you go; just give it your all, tiger." And then I assume they tousle your hair or toss you a baseball mitt so you can go play catch out in the yard and talk about how great your opportunities are.

If you want to discuss career paths, then that's exactly what happens here. You just seem to be upset that people are portraying the financial and career-related realities of law school instead of this fantastical portrait that you've painted for yourself. Law school is not for everyone, and yes, most people who take the LSAT should not be going to law school in the first place. Part of why we're in the middle of a pretty abysmal career market with skyrocketing law school tuition is precisely because too many people who have no business going to law school were given the chance to go, and unscrupulous people saw the chance to profit off of their ambition.

Not explaining the reality of law school and legal job outcomes to prospective students is irresponsible.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:27 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:All law students deserve a friendly environment where they could discuss their career with like minded people, not just T18 people!


As mentioned, you already get plenty of friendly feedback (probably too much) from the relatives and pre-law counselors telling you, "Sure, go to Florida Coastal for $150k. You're smart, so you'll succeed wherever you go; just give it your all, tiger." And then I assume they tousle your hair or toss you a baseball mitt so you can go play catch out in the yard and talk about how great your opportunities are.

If you want to discuss career paths, then that's exactly what happens here. You just seem to be upset that people are portraying the financial and career-related realities of law school instead of this fantastical portrait that you've painted for yourself. Law school is not for everyone, and yes, most people who take the LSAT should not be going to law school in the first place. Part of why we're in the middle of a pretty abysmal career market with skyrocketing law school tuition is precisely because too many people who have no business going to law school were given the chance to go, and unscrupulous people saw the chance to profit off of their ambition.

Not explaining the reality of law school and legal job outcomes to prospective students is irresponsible.


No one in their right mind would advise someone to go to Florida Coastal for 150k! I've gotten very negative commentary for example thinking 120k at a school like W+M or W+L is a fine deal, or paying about 100-150k to go to the regional school in the area you want to practice. Saying that's the same as Florida Coastal(even for free) is pure false equivalency, only real schools in Florida are FU, FSU, Miami, Stetson and maybe FIU? Let's not compare places that are about to lose ABA accreditation to regional schools. People should be able to tell the difference between friendly people who don't know what the hell they're talking about and friendly people who do!

Explaining debt, the horrible interest and the job market is responsible but you guys go way to far.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:28 pm

HuntedUnicorn wrote:Actually I'm going to change my answer. "Don't go to law school" is really the better advice and should probably replace "retake" as the go to.


Yes people on a law forum must really love their profession. Jeez lmfao.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby bmathers » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:42 pm

I just want to add that I went from looking at paying $12k/year tuition at a fairly low-placement, very regional, out-of-state lazy river school to 3 full-ride offers (as of today) at strong regional schools within my target state to practice in.

All that ^ over a 5 point increase. A school that I was rejected at last cycle offered me a full-ride this cycle. My parents thought that I was crazy, but now think that I was very smart (spoiler: I'm not, but some people here are). I'm 29, fwiw - I'm not sitting around and retaking during UG. I teach and have a business, but sacrificing and retaking was sound advice. I used the past year to see all there is to see in this state before I move to LS,, and to add to my savings for LS. Now, I'm half tempted to wait two years and get 3 more shots at it, because I was PTing up-to 8 points higher than my actual score... but a full-ride at a regional is hard to beat for my goals (aka not Big Law).

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby existentialcrisis » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:45 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
HuntedUnicorn wrote:Actually I'm going to change my answer. "Don't go to law school" is really the better advice and should probably replace "retake" as the go to.


Yes people on a law forum must really love their profession. Jeez lmfao.


Don't you think they're in a better position to evaluate the profession that 0Ls?

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:16 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:All law students deserve a friendly environment where they could discuss their career with like minded people, not just T18 people!


As mentioned, you already get plenty of friendly feedback (probably too much) from the relatives and pre-law counselors telling you, "Sure, go to Florida Coastal for $150k. You're smart, so you'll succeed wherever you go; just give it your all, tiger." And then I assume they tousle your hair or toss you a baseball mitt so you can go play catch out in the yard and talk about how great your opportunities are.

If you want to discuss career paths, then that's exactly what happens here. You just seem to be upset that people are portraying the financial and career-related realities of law school instead of this fantastical portrait that you've painted for yourself. Law school is not for everyone, and yes, most people who take the LSAT should not be going to law school in the first place. Part of why we're in the middle of a pretty abysmal career market with skyrocketing law school tuition is precisely because too many people who have no business going to law school were given the chance to go, and unscrupulous people saw the chance to profit off of their ambition.

Not explaining the reality of law school and legal job outcomes to prospective students is irresponsible.


No one in their right mind would advise someone to go to Florida Coastal for 150k! I've gotten very negative commentary for example thinking 120k at a school like W+M or W+L is a fine deal, or paying about 100-150k to go to the regional school in the area you want to practice. Saying that's the same as Florida Coastal(even for free) is pure false equivalency, only real schools in Florida are FU, FSU, Miami, Stetson and maybe FIU? Let's not compare places that are about to lose ABA accreditation to regional schools. People should be able to tell the difference between friendly people who don't know what the hell they're talking about and friendly people who do!

Explaining debt, the horrible interest and the job market is responsible but you guys go way to far.

That's still a lot of money to pay back on, say, $60k/yr.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby UT2017 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:46 am

pancakes3 wrote:
chicagoburger wrote:First, the opportunity cost of retaking the test is huge. Spending one extra year of your life on this freaking stupid test should only be considered when you don't have a life, a real life.


Wrong

Secondly, people know what they want and what can be reached. If I got only 3.4 gpa and I want to stay in Chicago, pass the bar, why do I need to retake to shoot for UChicago?


wrong

Thirdly, LSAT is curved. Only 30% people can get above 160. You advise all those 70% below to retake for a year. They will score differently, but most of them will be below 160 again. The "retake" suggestion simply won't work for most of the applicants mathematically speaking.


wrong

Lastly, if the person wants to ask a question regarding a school choice, we should assume that person has done the homework and covered the retake option.


wrong.



Donald Trump, is that you?

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby star fox » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:20 am

Let me start by saying, I am not overly concerned with any anonymous poster's decision on what law school to attend and at what cost. If someone wants to go to whatever law school at whatever cost, that's their prerogative. Live your life.

However, the re-take advice is generally wise because of the simple reality that where you attend law school and at what cost are things that are going to be highly relevant towards the employment outcome you receive out of law school, which has major ramifications on the the rest of your life. The LSAT is a game-able test, the more you study and practice it, the better you'll do. Every incremental increase in score has a big factor in where you get admitted at what level of cost. So if you plan on investing in a long legal career, it makes sense to really focus on maximizing your score on the LSAT. It is not an area where you want to cut corners.

The opportunity cost to delaying law school entrance by a year to improve the LSAT score is not particularly high. Even if you do not succeed in raising your LSAT, there is value and benefits to working a(nother) year and you are unlikely to be impaired by being a year older when you start law school and eventually your legal career. Thus, the upside is very high and the downside is very low to delaying a year. Sure, at some point you should shit or get off the pot with regards to whether you're going to go to Law School, if you're studying for the LSAT for 10 years you're probably wasting your time. But that is different than a simple re-take.

I think that people are capable of taking advice and ignoring it if they want to. Having if they ask for advice, they should expect honest and candid advice. If you just want to say "hey, please validate my life decisions for me" then go talk to your mom or girlfriend or boyfriend, a bunch of internet strangers have no great incentive to feed you an optimistic spin on things just to protect your ego.



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