Stop Telling People to Retake

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:50 pm

RIP straw man

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Ferrisjso

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:13 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Please don't go to law school.


i think this advice is also some of the worst thrown about advice on TLS. tls seems to set some arbitrary lsat bar for who they think is worthy of being a lawyer/will have a successful career. the people i know who find their jobs most meaningfull overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools and the people who have the most autonomy in their practice (own clients, own firms etc) overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools. (1) if your goal is to help disadvantaged people (domestic violence, criminal defense, landlord tenant law, immigration law), i dont think an lsat should really ever be a hindrance to going to law school (maybe sub-140 or something, but anything around average is fine) or (2) if your goal is to own your own practice and be autonomous, an average lsat score shouldnt deter your career goals.

the people who knew what they wanted to do with their degree (i.e. own practice doing _____ law; or help ______ group of disadvantaged people by doing _______) are most fit for being a lawyer in my opinion after seeing careers play out from those from good schools and those from bad schoools. theyve been the happiest and had most job satisfaction and been most successful in achieving career goals. however, people with generic goals of i want to help people usually hate law. sort of fine line between knowing what you want and just going with the wind.

people that are in the "i want to use my brain to do complicated work to make a lot of money" are usually the most frustrated. but within that, people who just want an upper middle class lifestyle and hard work is fine, law seems to be fine with them for the most part.


Yeah I've never understood why people would be so gung ho about convincing people not to go to Law School. I think the whole "arbitrary LSAT bar" is again because alot of posters on here are in a bubble of high LSAT scores that is not at all representative of lawyers as a whole. I think alot of these posters might be subconsciously biased towards the LSAT meaning something because they did well on it(tbf that's only natural, can't really blame them for that) and not just a means for comparing people based on the same scale, rather than GPA's which mean very different things based on school and major. One of the smartest people I've ever met scored a 137 on the LSAT. Again retaking can be good advice but posters on here seem to take anecdotal evidence of massive score improvement and try to apply it to everyone. I think a good rule of thumb would just be to answer people's questions and give them advice rather than assuming they need to be saved.

I think this mentality drives people in the situations you are mentioning, whom there is no shortage of in real life, from seeking advice on forums such as this. Look at the acceptance/denial threads, there are almost no threads for TTT's and the threads for TT's have a handful of people on them at best. I made two TTT threads and the only response I got for either(not from myself) was someone posting yellow journalism style fake employment stats(22% which was less than half the number on the 509's) ,saying why it was such a bad idea and the mod saying that the thread wasn't the place for that discussion. This mentality is chasing a huge amount of pre law students away from seeking advice on here and it really makes me sad. And before someone responds with the dumb line "but the site is called Top Law schools", why did the site make large profiles for the top 100 schools and smaller ones for TTT's and TTTT's if it was just an enclave for T18 kids? That word could mean anything to anyone, heck the Princeton review released a book where it designated 174 schools as "top" law schools basically every place that shouldn't be shut down and maybe a few that should.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:18 pm

And...the circle is complete

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lymenheimer

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby lymenheimer » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:28 pm

lymenheimer wrote:Novel thoughts and opinions here. Very filled with nuance and accuracy. Thank you for your contribution.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:44 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Please don't go to law school.


i think this advice is also some of the worst thrown about advice on TLS. tls seems to set some arbitrary lsat bar for who they think is worthy of being a lawyer/will have a successful career. the people i know who find their jobs most meaningfull overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools and the people who have the most autonomy in their practice (own clients, own firms etc) overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools. (1) if your goal is to help disadvantaged people (domestic violence, criminal defense, landlord tenant law, immigration law), i dont think an lsat should really ever be a hindrance to going to law school (maybe sub-140 or something, but anything around average is fine) or (2) if your goal is to own your own practice and be autonomous, an average lsat score shouldnt deter your career goals.

the people who knew what they wanted to do with their degree (i.e. own practice doing _____ law; or help ______ group of disadvantaged people by doing _______) are most fit for being a lawyer in my opinion after seeing careers play out from those from good schools and those from bad schoools. theyve been the happiest and had most job satisfaction and been most successful in achieving career goals. however, people with generic goals of i want to help people usually hate law. sort of fine line between knowing what you want and just going with the wind.

people that are in the "i want to use my brain to do complicated work to make a lot of money" are usually the most frustrated. but within that, people who just want an upper middle class lifestyle and hard work is fine, law seems to be fine with them for the most part.


Of course, if the goal of society at large is to have a legal profession that is not oversaturated and that is exclusively filled with the most competent lawyers available, maybe society is better served by about half of the people who go to law school not going.

Autonomy in one's practice isn't a measure of anything except autonomy. That's not an objective metric of success, nor is it an argument that this person has succeeded in life and beaten the odds. And you will find the "I just want to help people," motivation at all tiers of law schools and across all LSAT score bands. The fact is that if you are simply incapable of basic logical reasoning (and after all the bullshit and whining, that is what the LSAT tests), you shouldn't be a lawyer. The OP in this case shouldn't go to law school, because he has shown himself to be completely incapable of reading a point, comprehending it, and replying with something resembling a related counterpoint. And because he just seems generally unlikable, so I'm probably just a wee bit biased.

Also, if 140 is an "average" LSAT, I dread to know what you consider "average" performance for a lawyer.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby smaug » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:56 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Please don't go to law school.


i think this advice is also some of the worst thrown about advice on TLS. tls seems to set some arbitrary lsat bar for who they think is worthy of being a lawyer/will have a successful career. the people i know who find their jobs most meaningfull overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools and the people who have the most autonomy in their practice (own clients, own firms etc) overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools. (1) if your goal is to help disadvantaged people (domestic violence, criminal defense, landlord tenant law, immigration law), i dont think an lsat should really ever be a hindrance to going to law school (maybe sub-140 or something, but anything around average is fine) or (2) if your goal is to own your own practice and be autonomous, an average lsat score shouldnt deter your career goals.

the people who knew what they wanted to do with their degree (i.e. own practice doing _____ law; or help ______ group of disadvantaged people by doing _______) are most fit for being a lawyer in my opinion after seeing careers play out from those from good schools and those from bad schoools. theyve been the happiest and had most job satisfaction and been most successful in achieving career goals. however, people with generic goals of i want to help people usually hate law. sort of fine line between knowing what you want and just going with the wind.

people that are in the "i want to use my brain to do complicated work to make a lot of money" are usually the most frustrated. but within that, people who just want an upper middle class lifestyle and hard work is fine, law seems to be fine with them for the most part.


shut the fuck up, johann

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby smaug » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:58 pm

How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:59 pm

Yeah JDM's advice here is borderline reckless. For one, you can use LST to see what the outcomes look like for various TTT schools. They're certainly not reflective of everyone getting cushy upper-middle class jobs. My own anecdata isn't as rosy as JDM's. I know one girl who was a paralegal, went to lawschool at Suffolk, and then couldn't get rehired as a paralegal when she graduated. Eventually she found work outside of the law. Waste of 3 years and lots of $$$. I know a bunch of people stuck in traffic court. I know someone who successfully started a solo practice in family law, but it only was able to succeed because his dad was a judge who knew everybody and could funnel him clients. I know a bunch of people stuck in doc review hell.

The one group of people I know who thrives at TTTs are people who want to get in on either side of criminal practice at the state level. But even then the process is incredibly stressful and you have to gun for it from day one. More general do-goodery type stuff is either unavailable at any practical scale or much more easily accessed from a top tier law school.

Which I think is the big thing- it can be made to work if people know exactly what they want out of law school and they know how they're going to achieve it. This describes like 5% of the people who come to TLS looking for advice. Even then, you should minimize costs and try to go to the best regional possible, so retake isn't terrible advice.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Mikey » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:01 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
To those who got way better offers after retaking LSAT, congrats. But you are the outlier I am afraid. There is one LSAT study that shows the mean LSAT scores were highest for second-time test takers(151.7), followed closely by first-time test takers (151.0) and third-time test takers (149.4). Huge difference anyone?
But I have to say, statistically speaking, most of those who scored below 160 here will score mostly below 160. That's the way LSAT test designed. 80% people has to be below 160 in general.

retake those statistics, bro

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:11 pm

I mean for fucks sake the fact that not only do people put up with the staff attorney/doc review specialist lifestyle but that the business is absolutely thriving should tell you everything about why people try to discourage people from attending TTTs:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=157855#p4490715
http://abovethelaw.com/2014/04/this-new ... prise-you/
http://abovethelaw.com/2016/02/millenni ... parasites/

etc..

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:13 pm

HuntedUnicorn wrote:Yeah JDM's advice here is borderline reckless. For one, you can use LST to see what the outcomes look like for various TTT schools. They're certainly not reflective of everyone getting cushy upper-middle class jobs. My own anecdata isn't as rosy as JDM's. I know one girl who was a paralegal, went to lawschool at Suffolk, and then couldn't get rehired as a paralegal when she graduated. Eventually she found work outside of the law. Waste of 3 years and lots of $$$. I know a bunch of people stuck in traffic court. I know someone who successfully started a solo practice in family law, but it only was able to succeed because his dad was a judge who knew everybody and could funnel him clients. I know a bunch of people stuck in doc review hell.

The one group of people I know who thrives at TTTs are people who want to get in on either side of criminal practice at the state level. But even then the process is incredibly stressful and you have to gun for it from day one. More general do-goodery type stuff is either unavailable at any practical scale or much more easily accessed from a top tier law school.

Which I think is the big thing- it can be made to work if people know exactly what they want out of law school and they know how they're going to achieve it. This describes like 5% of the people who come to TLS looking for advice. Even then, you should minimize costs and try to go to the best regional possible, so retake isn't terrible advice.

Johann's got at least 500 anecdotes because he personally knows a ton of people you see. Your anecdotes have no value when weighed against the overwhelming weight of Johann's anecdata.
JohannDeMann wrote:I know probably 500-1000 Chicago ttt grads.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Johann » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:15 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Please don't go to law school.


i think this advice is also some of the worst thrown about advice on TLS. tls seems to set some arbitrary lsat bar for who they think is worthy of being a lawyer/will have a successful career. the people i know who find their jobs most meaningfull overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools and the people who have the most autonomy in their practice (own clients, own firms etc) overwhelmingly come from lower ranked law schools. (1) if your goal is to help disadvantaged people (domestic violence, criminal defense, landlord tenant law, immigration law), i dont think an lsat should really ever be a hindrance to going to law school (maybe sub-140 or something, but anything around average is fine) or (2) if your goal is to own your own practice and be autonomous, an average lsat score shouldnt deter your career goals.

the people who knew what they wanted to do with their degree (i.e. own practice doing _____ law; or help ______ group of disadvantaged people by doing _______) are most fit for being a lawyer in my opinion after seeing careers play out from those from good schools and those from bad schoools. theyve been the happiest and had most job satisfaction and been most successful in achieving career goals. however, people with generic goals of i want to help people usually hate law. sort of fine line between knowing what you want and just going with the wind.

people that are in the "i want to use my brain to do complicated work to make a lot of money" are usually the most frustrated. but within that, people who just want an upper middle class lifestyle and hard work is fine, law seems to be fine with them for the most part.


Of course, if the goal of society at large is to have a legal profession that is not oversaturated and that is exclusively filled with the most competent lawyers available, maybe society is better served by about half of the people who go to law school not going.

Autonomy in one's practice isn't a measure of anything except autonomy. That's not an objective metric of success, nor is it an argument that this person has succeeded in life and beaten the odds. And you will find the "I just want to help people," motivation at all tiers of law schools and across all LSAT score bands. The fact is that if you are simply incapable of basic logical reasoning (and after all the bullshit and whining, that is what the LSAT tests), you shouldn't be a lawyer. The OP in this case shouldn't go to law school, because he has shown himself to be completely incapable of reading a point, comprehending it, and replying with something resembling a related counterpoint. And because he just seems generally unlikable, so I'm probably just a wee bit biased.

Also, if 140 is an "average" LSAT, I dread to know what you consider "average" performance for a lawyer.


I was saying below 140 might be reason to question law (because passing the bar might be hard mainly). 150 is average.
My point is lsat score doesn't indicate who is a good lawyer. The best immigration attorneys may be ESL. The best domestic violence attorneys may have struggled through college or not been able to do logic games fast. 99% of practicing is giving a fuck about your client and showing up for them and 99% of good service is being able to empathize with clients. So many great attorneys probably scored under a 160. Also, immigration, dv, and low income lawyers are not over saturated it's the most needed attorneys by any of the agencies keeping score.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:16 pm

Mikey wrote:
chicagoburger wrote:
To those who got way better offers after retaking LSAT, congrats. But you are the outlier I am afraid. There is one LSAT study that shows the mean LSAT scores were highest for second-time test takers(151.7), followed closely by first-time test takers (151.0) and third-time test takers (149.4). Huge difference anyone?
But I have to say, statistically speaking, most of those who scored below 160 here will score mostly below 160. That's the way LSAT test designed. 80% people has to be below 160 in general.

retake those statistics, bro


While the idea of a "forced curve" is clearly wrong, the test is designed so that a certain amount get that amount (even if it's possible for everyone to get 180 in theory in reality it just isn't). These stats make sense, on average people who retake the second time will see a slight improvement just by merit of taking it again and knowing what it's like and the pool of people taking the test a third time probably is weaker than the first two(people with LSAT score's in the 160's and up are less likely to retake as a whole, even if their TLS peers would). So yeah this makes sense does anyone have any stats to counter this? How is this surprising I'm under the impression everyone knows the average is around 150 or 151?

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:18 pm

smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby smaug » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:22 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

Just an idiot then I guess.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Johann » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:24 pm

If people want to pull the lst data from Chicago TTTs I'll discuss my anecdotes against them anytime. You're not going to get rich. I've never claimed that. But for the people that really really want it, I still have yet to see a failure by the way TLS talks i.e. Never gets a job lives in basement/only does doc review forever. Upper middle class is 60k paired with another 60k income in case you didn't know.

And yeah i was a hustler while in law school and somewhat social so I def met and know at least that number throughout 3-5 years.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:25 pm

smaug wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

Just an idiot then I guess.


One of the smartest people I've ever met. I was surprised. The point is the LSAT is not an IQ test, it does not say how smart someone is or isn't!

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:32 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:If people want to pull the lst data from Chicago TTTs I'll discuss my anecdotes against them anytime. You're not going to get rich. I've never claimed that. But for the people that really really want it, I still have yet to see a failure by the way TLS talks i.e. Never gets a job lives in basement/only does doc review forever. Upper middle class is 60k paired with another 60k income in case you didn't know.

And yeah i was a hustler while in law school and somewhat social so I def met and know at least that number throughout 3-5 years.


According to this: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/john ... l-chicago/

11.2% of 1Ls fail out of John Marshall
1/4 to 1/3 of those that do graduate every year are underemployed

and they don't provide salary data so read into that what you will.

I didn't think about immigration but yeah if you're bilingual and that's something you're passionate about it might be a viable path too. But that just cycles back to the larger point which is that the lower down the rankings you go the more you really need to know what you want to get out of law school to justify the risk.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:34 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

Just an idiot then I guess.


One of the smartest people I've ever met. I was surprised. The point is the LSAT is not an IQ test, it does not say how smart someone is or isn't!


Exactly, everyone agrees, which is why the test is so superbly gameable. If the LSAT were an IQ test, people wouldn't tell people to retake because it wouldn't be worth the effort. But because it's not an IQ test, it's very beatable and (assuming you put in the work) you'll find few better uses for your time if you're dead set on law school.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby UVA2B » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:35 pm

Isn't there a place that gives wonderful anecdata about the grim side of legal employment?

Oh right, the vale.

And isn't there also a place where real, no shit money problems and paying back big debt is discussed?

Aha! Student loan payments: real numbers.

Those poo pooing the idea of maximizing employment prospects/minimizing costs, go read those threads.

People can quibble over whether people can improve their LSAT or whether a given school is worth it, but it really comes down to a few paramount questions:

1. What do you want specifically with a law degree?
2. Where can you best position yourself for that type of job and what type of school gives you a realistic shot at that job?
3. How much is that school going to cost?
4. How are you going to pay for it?
5. If loans, can the job you want realistically pay for it?
6. If 5 is no, readjust and repeat.

ETA: assuming at least one big thing, and that is your numbers in this scenario are static, which is laughable because the LSAT is learnable, and there is always an opportunity to make the above calculus improve.
Last edited by UVA2B on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby rcharter1978 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:36 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

Just an idiot then I guess.


One of the smartest people I've ever met. I was surprised. The point is the LSAT is not an IQ test, it does not say how smart someone is or isn't!


at 137, it may operate as a functional IQ test. That is a remarkably low score.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby HonestAdvice » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:38 pm

It's always going to be the prudent answer, because it's low risk and high reward. The reward is potentially very lucrative, and the only cost is time. In life, there are only 3 times where you can only gain and cannot lose. These 3 are:

(1) Retaking the LSAT
(2) The 6-6-6 deal at Dominos
(3) Smoking crack.

You also have to weigh the value of a year. Not all years are created equal. Unless you're a female English teacher abducted by Boko Haran, your early 20s will be some of the best years of your life. This does not mean they'll be good or even adequate, but working some job and finding yourself is better than having an extra year at the nursing home to have old people sex and biscuits.

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:43 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

Just an idiot then I guess.


One of the smartest people I've ever met. I was surprised. The point is the LSAT is not an IQ test, it does not say how smart someone is or isn't!


at 137, it may operate as a functional IQ test. That is a remarkably low score.


Well 92% of people do better so about just as many people score 137 or lower than score 165 or higher. Yet places like this are full of those 165+'s and I doubt a 137 or lower would dare to come on here. So all you 165+ people just think for every one of you there's someone who scored that low or even worse!

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby Mikey » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:49 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
Mikey wrote:
chicagoburger wrote:
To those who got way better offers after retaking LSAT, congrats. But you are the outlier I am afraid. There is one LSAT study that shows the mean LSAT scores were highest for second-time test takers(151.7), followed closely by first-time test takers (151.0) and third-time test takers (149.4). Huge difference anyone?
But I have to say, statistically speaking, most of those who scored below 160 here will score mostly below 160. That's the way LSAT test designed. 80% people has to be below 160 in general.

retake those statistics, bro


While the idea of a "forced curve" is clearly wrong, the test is designed so that a certain amount get that amount (even if it's possible for everyone to get 180 in theory in reality it just isn't). These stats make sense, on average people who retake the second time will see a slight improvement just by merit of taking it again and knowing what it's like and the pool of people taking the test a third time probably is weaker than the first two(people with LSAT score's in the 160's and up are less likely to retake as a whole, even if their TLS peers would). So yeah this makes sense does anyone have any stats to counter this? How is this surprising I'm under the impression everyone knows the average is around 150 or 151?

I was joking around

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Re: Stop Telling People to Retake

Postby HonestAdvice » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:49 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
smaug wrote:How does one score 137 on the LSAT.

Were they a native English speaker?


Yes they are. They said they just winged it(which goes without saying).

Just an idiot then I guess.


One of the smartest people I've ever met. I was surprised. The point is the LSAT is not an IQ test, it does not say how smart someone is or isn't!


at 137, it may operate as a functional IQ test. That is a remarkably low score.


Well 92% of people do better so about just as many people score 137 or lower than score 165 or higher. Yet places like this are full of those 165+'s and I doubt a 137 or lower would dare to come on here. So all you 165+ people just think for every one of you there's someone who scored that low or even worse!

A big part of this is schools will have their accreditation pulled if they take too many 137's. I don't have the #'s now, but what is it like 20% of these people ever pass the bar? Once you're there it's unethical to admit them just like how it was unethical to give a 5 mill mortgage to a janitor pre-2007.



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