DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

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chicagoburger

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DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:49 pm

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Last edited by chicagoburger on Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:55 pm

1) Rankings don't matter in the slightest. Getting the job you want at an appropriate cost are all that matter.
2) Define "good job." Its highly unlikely that you'll be a top student. Assume you'll be an average student.
3) Why wouldn't you at least try to negotiate?

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby connordalto » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:57 pm

chicagoburger wrote:Guys,

I have narrowed down my choices to the following two schools. Both offered max $$ to me.
1. DePaul $30k/year no GPA requirement (so prob $15k/year out of pocket)
2. John Marshall Chicago full ride as long as good standing (2.25gpa)

I understand that neither school is a good choice for many of you, but that's what I got, unfortunately.
I live in Chicago so I only applied Chicago schools. Being an older applicant, I don't have great scores. Still waiting on Kent.

My question is:
1. Does DePual's higher ranking justify my paying extra $15k/year to attend?
2. Which school has the better chance for me to get a good job if I can be the top student there?
3. Loyola offers me $15k/year. Should I even bother to negotiate it with DePaul's $30k?

Thanks a lot :P


Clueless 0L here, but heres my two cents. Since all are regional schools, chase that $$. Dont know about the jobs, but I'd assume theyre roughly equal if your staying in Chicago (or look at which one caters better to your practice areas of interest).

If you still dont like the options.... retake!

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby Mullens » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:00 pm

chicagoburger wrote:Guys,

I have narrowed down my choices to the following two schools. Both offered max $$ to me.
1. DePaul $30k/year no GPA requirement (so prob $15k/year out of pocket)
2. John Marshall Chicago full ride as long as good standing (2.25gpa)

I understand that neither school is a good choice for many of you, but that's what I got, unfortunately.
I live in Chicago so I only applied Chicago schools. Being an older applicant, I don't have great scores. Still waiting on Kent.

My question is:
1. Does DePual's higher ranking justify my paying extra $15k/year to attend?
2. Which school has the better chance for me to get a good job if I can be the top student there?
3. Loyola offers me $15k/year. Should I even bother to negotiate it with DePaul's $30k?

Thanks a lot :P


John Marshall is an awful school and has a terrible reputation in Chicago. Don't go there. You need to negotiate with DePaul and Loyola until you get a full ride. If you can't get one this cycle, then you need to retake and try again.

chicagoburger

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:08 pm

Mullens wrote:
John Marshall is an awful school and has a terrible reputation in Chicago. Don't go there. You need to negotiate with DePaul and Loyola until you get a full ride. If you can't get one this cycle, then you need to retake and try again.


It's unlikely I can get any better $$ from Loyola given my number. DePaul scholarship max is $30k/year, no full scholarship there.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:09 pm

You need to explain your career goals in order to get anything resembling specific advice here. Otherwise, just avoid John Marshall, and retake for full rides at DePaul/Loyola.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby waldorf » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:10 pm

chicagoburger wrote:Guys,

I have narrowed down my choices to the following two schools. Both offered max $$ to me.
1. DePaul $30k/year no GPA requirement (so prob $15k/year out of pocket)
2. John Marshall Chicago full ride as long as good standing (2.25gpa)

I understand that neither school is a good choice for many of you, but that's what I got, unfortunately.
I live in Chicago so I only applied Chicago schools. Being an older applicant, I don't have great scores. Still waiting on Kent.

My question is:
1. Does DePual's higher ranking justify my paying extra $15k/year to attend?
2. Which school has the better chance for me to get a good job if I can be the top student there?
3. Loyola offers me $15k/year. Should I even bother to negotiate it with DePaul's $30k?

Thanks a lot :P


Retake and try for a full ride (or very close to it) at Loyola. It's the only school in Chicago outside of UChicago and Northwestern that's even worth going to, and only with a full ride.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:18 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:You need to explain your career goals in order to get anything resembling specific advice here. Otherwise, just avoid John Marshall, and retake for full rides at DePaul/Loyola.


Correct me if I am wrong, I think this year is the best year to apply for law schools. Above-the-law shows many schools have stopped bleeding this cycle and application number is going up now. If I retake, I would have to wait for another year and face more competition. Plus I don't think I can improve that much to get into the top schools here.

DePaul and JM have both offered me max $$ possible. It doesn't make sense for me to retake to target a full ride at Loyola/Kent. Opportunity cost is too high plus not much difference in terms of regional school job prospect here.

BTW, why do so many people trash John Marshall?

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby azaleafire » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Looking at ATL, they seem to have shaky employment numbers, a low law school transparency score, and isn't particularly well liked by students current students and alumni (http://abovethelaw.com/schools/john-marshall-law-school-chicago/). That might be part of it.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby guynourmin » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:28 pm

chicagoburger wrote:BTW, why do so many people trash John Marshall?


We've met people who went to John Marshall. We trash it, then we meet a terrible JM attorney, then we trash it, then we meet a terrible JM attorney, then we...

Last year there were 381 graduates, which is criminally high. Of those, 194 had JD-required jobs 10 months after graduation. If we remove the 7 who struck out on their own, that's 49% of the class. Literally less than half of the graduates got jobs as lawyers.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:29 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You need to explain your career goals in order to get anything resembling specific advice here. Otherwise, just avoid John Marshall, and retake for full rides at DePaul/Loyola.


Correct me if I am wrong, I think this year is the best year to apply for law schools. Above-the-law shows many schools have stopped bleeding this cycle and application number is going up now. If I retake, I would have to wait for another year and face more competition. Plus I don't think I can improve that much to get into the top schools here.

DePaul and JM have both offered me max $$ possible. It doesn't make sense for me to retake to target a full ride at Loyola/Kent. Opportunity cost is too high plus not much difference in terms of regional school job prospect here.

BTW, why do so many people trash John Marshall?


Because John Marshall is a dumpster fire, not a school. You also cannot predict that you will face more competition next year or that you will not be able to improve your LSAT (which is only limited by your ability to apply yourself and study).

What is your LSAT, and what are your career goals?

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:58 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:

Because John Marshall is a dumpster fire, not a school. You also cannot predict that you will face more competition next year or that you will not be able to improve your LSAT (which is only limited by your ability to apply yourself and study).

What is your LSAT, and what are your career goals?


But don't schools all teach the same thing regardless of its ranking?
I work full-time job and my decision to switch career came really late. I didn't prepare for LSAT and scored 158. The logic games were so hard that I went straight "D" on 15 out of the 20ish questions. This part was harder than necessary IMHO. Looking back, if I invest time to study this thing, I should be able to score 10 points higher.
But still, that will most likely give me a full ride to Loyola in Chicago. Does it worth a full year delay of law school? I don't think so.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby grades?? » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:04 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:

Because John Marshall is a dumpster fire, not a school. You also cannot predict that you will face more competition next year or that you will not be able to improve your LSAT (which is only limited by your ability to apply yourself and study).

What is your LSAT, and what are your career goals?


But don't schools all teach the same thing regardless of its ranking?
I work full-time job and my decision to switch career came really late. I didn't prepare for LSAT and scored 158. The logic games were so hard that I went straight "D" on 15 out of the 20ish questions. This part was harder than necessary IMHO. Looking back, if I invest time to study this thing, I should be able to score 10 points higher.
But still, that will most likely give me a full ride to Loyola in Chicago. Does it worth a full year delay of law school? I don't think so.


A full ride? Hell yeah that is worth delaying for. And logic games are the easiest section of the lsat to learn. If you got 15 of those questions wrong from guessing, you are literally leaving 15 points on the table. That is a 167+ versus a 158. You have absolutely no reason not to learn games and retake. People here are experienced at this, you aren't. The advice is correct. Learn games, retake, get much higher score, and then see what happens. Law school will be there. No need to rush.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby Mullens » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:16 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:

Because John Marshall is a dumpster fire, not a school. You also cannot predict that you will face more competition next year or that you will not be able to improve your LSAT (which is only limited by your ability to apply yourself and study).

What is your LSAT, and what are your career goals?


But don't schools all teach the same thing regardless of its ranking?
I work full-time job and my decision to switch career came really late. I didn't prepare for LSAT and scored 158. The logic games were so hard that I went straight "D" on 15 out of the 20ish questions. This part was harder than necessary IMHO. Looking back, if I invest time to study this thing, I should be able to score 10 points higher.
But still, that will most likely give me a full ride to Loyola in Chicago. Does it worth a full year delay of law school? I don't think so.


It is 100% worth it to delay. I know people who attend all of these schools. Everyone I know who goes to or went to John Marshall regrets it. Some are only 1Ls and already regret it. If you didn't study for the LSAT then you have to retake. If you don't you're essentially washing your future down the drain before you even start.

You still haven't answered the question about your career goals.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:27 pm

Mullens wrote:It is 100% worth it to delay. I know people who attend all of these schools. Everyone I know who goes to or went to John Marshall regrets it. Some are only 1Ls and already regret it. If you didn't study for the LSAT then you have to retake. If you don't you're essentially washing your future down the drain before you even start.

You still haven't answered the question about your career goals.

I am planning on passing the bar and having my own practice in the area that relates to my past working experience. I dont consider myself a good fit for any big laws nor any hope for UChicago or UN. But I do hope to get some intern/clerkship during school years so that school name still kind of matters...

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby wanderlust24x » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:36 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
Mullens wrote:It is 100% worth it to delay. I know people who attend all of these schools. Everyone I know who goes to or went to John Marshall regrets it. Some are only 1Ls and already regret it. If you didn't study for the LSAT then you have to retake. If you don't you're essentially washing your future down the drain before you even start.

You still haven't answered the question about your career goals.

I am planning on passing the bar and having my own practice in the area that relates to my past working experience. I dont consider myself a good fit for any big laws nor any hope for UChicago or UN. But I do hope to get some intern/clerkship during school years so that school name still kind of matters...


Solely targeting the intern/clerkship aspect of your statement- I know quite a few people who attend Loyola and are doing great. Everyone who wanted an internship after 1L was able to attain one right in the city.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby connordalto » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:41 pm

grades?? wrote:
chicagoburger wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:

Because John Marshall is a dumpster fire, not a school. You also cannot predict that you will face more competition next year or that you will not be able to improve your LSAT (which is only limited by your ability to apply yourself and study).

What is your LSAT, and what are your career goals?


But don't schools all teach the same thing regardless of its ranking?
I work full-time job and my decision to switch career came really late. I didn't prepare for LSAT and scored 158. The logic games were so hard that I went straight "D" on 15 out of the 20ish questions. This part was harder than necessary IMHO. Looking back, if I invest time to study this thing, I should be able to score 10 points higher.
But still, that will most likely give me a full ride to Loyola in Chicago. Does it worth a full year delay of law school? I don't think so.


A full ride? Hell yeah that is worth delaying for. And logic games are the easiest section of the lsat to learn. If you got 15 of those questions wrong from guessing, you are literally leaving 15 points on the table. That is a 167+ versus a 158. You have absolutely no reason not to learn games and retake. People here are experienced at this, you aren't. The advice is correct. Learn games, retake, get much higher score, and then see what happens. Law school will be there. No need to rush.


Whats harder? Reading a ~300 page book and doing ~30 sets of practice logic games or working to put yourself ~160-200k out of debt? I'm on the retake side- you have it in you, why not give it your best shot?

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby Johann » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:41 pm

I graduated from a Chicago Ttt. I know probably 500-1000 Chicago ttt grads. Happy to discuss more via pm. If your goals are not biglaw, might be best to chase the money depending on your debt aversion.

What is your work experience in/ what market are you hoping to work in? Full ride to Loyola would be the optimal imo. So try to negotiate with them. Based on your test score and aid, I think you can safely pencil in being top 20% at either DePaul or JM assuming you attend class and put in the work. The schools are full of lots of idiots/people who have no idea what they got themselves into.

Mainly, you're not going to get biglaw from either. Might get midlaw/government if you network your ass off. Have to be prepared to network a lot. But it's early in the negotiation process so I'd make Loyola wait and see - maybe they throw some more money at you.

If you are familiar with debt repayment plans and what those look like (including pay as you earn and standard repayment), as well as employment numbers, go in with your eyes wide open that you need to network and know what you're trying to accomplish, a free or close to free legal degree is a good investment ime.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:17 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:I graduated from a Chicago Ttt. I know probably 500-1000 Chicago ttt grads. Happy to discuss more via pm. If your goals are not biglaw, might be best to chase the money depending on your debt aversion.

What is your work experience in/ what market are you hoping to work in? Full ride to Loyola would be the optimal imo. So try to negotiate with them. Based on your test score and aid, I think you can safely pencil in being top 20% at either DePaul or JM assuming you attend class and put in the work. The schools are full of lots of idiots/people who have no idea what they got themselves into.

Mainly, you're not going to get biglaw from either. Might get midlaw/government if you network your ass off. Have to be prepared to network a lot. But it's early in the negotiation process so I'd make Loyola wait and see - maybe they throw some more money at you.

If you are familiar with debt repayment plans and what those look like (including pay as you earn and standard repayment), as well as employment numbers, go in with your eyes wide open that you need to network and know what you're trying to accomplish, a free or close to free legal degree is a good investment ime.


Very informative. I hope to work hard and become one of the top students in TTT school. If there are any good opportunities for TTT, I want to make sure that I am a strong candidate there. That can't be easily said if I am to attend Loyola or Kent, where most students have similar scores like myself.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby Johann » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:21 pm

Once you're outside the top 10%/law review, it's all networking. So be ready to network too.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:21 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
Mullens wrote:It is 100% worth it to delay. I know people who attend all of these schools. Everyone I know who goes to or went to John Marshall regrets it. Some are only 1Ls and already regret it. If you didn't study for the LSAT then you have to retake. If you don't you're essentially washing your future down the drain before you even start.

You still haven't answered the question about your career goals.

I am planning on passing the bar and having my own practice in the area that relates to my past working experience. I dont consider myself a good fit for any big laws nor any hope for UChicago or UN. But I do hope to get some intern/clerkship during school years so that school name still kind of matters...


I'm not sure why you would want/need a clerkship for solo practice, but ignoring that...

You need to get a full ride. You may some day make bags of cash from your solo practice. But that day will not be within a few years of leaving school. So you need to minimize your debt, because you won't have a job that can pay off as much as you're planning on.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:48 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:

I'm not sure why you would want/need a clerkship for solo practice, but ignoring that...

You need to get a full ride. You may some day make bags of cash from your solo practice. But that day will not be within a few years of leaving school. So you need to minimize your debt, because you won't have a job that can pay off as much as you're planning on.


I thought one can be a clerk during school, no?
but yeah, I agree that it's a long way before a successful solo practice. I want to get as much experience possible while at law school.
My question is: What's the big difference between John Marshall and any other non-T1 schools in Chicago?

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:56 pm

chicagoburger wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:

I'm not sure why you would want/need a clerkship for solo practice, but ignoring that...

You need to get a full ride. You may some day make bags of cash from your solo practice. But that day will not be within a few years of leaving school. So you need to minimize your debt, because you won't have a job that can pay off as much as you're planning on.


I thought one can be a clerk during school, no?
but yeah, I agree that it's a long way before a successful solo practice. I want to get as much experience possible while at law school.
My question is: What's the big difference between John Marshall and any other non-T1 schools in Chicago?


No. Clerkships are full-time jobs for after you graduate. They're highly competitive, especially at the federal level, but even state clerkships are difficult to get from the schools in the tier you're looking at.

The difference between John Marshall and the other schools in Chicago is that John Marshall students don't get the same internship opportunities or same job outcomes as the other schools. None of that particularly matters if you want solo practice, but remember that your prospective clients need to have confidence in your abilities. A John Marshall JD does not inspire confidence.

Based on a lot of what you've said, I'd recommend doing some more research on law school and legal employment in general.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby Incrementalist » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:52 pm

I would see if DePaul would give you more money or try a lsat retake. John Marshall doesn't have good employment prospects to sacrifice and attend. You could also try Kent or Loyola too.

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Re: DePaul($30k) vs John Marshall (full ride)

Postby zeglo » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:04 pm

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