3.67, 160...Chances?

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radon5

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3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby radon5 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:56 pm

Wanted some input on my chances for higher tier schools. I have a 3.67 GPA, a 160 LSAT and pretty good soft skills/work experience. What chance do I have at somewhere like Northwestern or Georgetown? Could I get money from some bigger state schools? Thanks.

cavalier1138

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:01 pm

Unless you're a URM (and probably even if you are), your chances are 0 at any of the T14 and 0 for getting money from any flagship state schools. If that's your goal, retake.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby radon5 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:08 pm

So I'm pretty much screwed this round then?

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby grades?? » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:15 pm

Yes. Retake.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:15 pm

radon5 wrote:So I'm pretty much screwed this round then?


For the schools you mentioned, yes. If you want a shot at the T14 (and/or good scholarships at the best state schools), that score needs to go up at least 7-8 points.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:33 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Unless you're a URM (and probably even if you are), your chances are 0 at any of the T14 and 0 for getting money from any flagship state schools. If that's your goal, retake.


Don't listen to them, apply! If you aren't satisfied with your outcomes(and I mostly am with lower numbers than you) than by all means retake(or if you are dead set on a particular school in the T-14 or T20-25 with money cause yeah that doesn't look likely). You could certainly get admitted to T1 schools with scholly money if you apply! It is also possible for you to get into Georgetown (look at their 509's) but money is unlikely(if you want the T-14 and think you can do better on the LSAT you really should retake). Remember though, many of the people on this site(while very informative and knowledgeable) are skewed towards pessimism for some reason(people with great scores like 165, 167 and 169 have been advised to retake) so remember if you retake and get an even better score they will still be telling you (largely) the same thing. You are far from "screwed" for this admission cycle! Also be proud of your 160 LSAT, I know it might not seem that way reading some of these threads but you did better than 4 out of 5 people sitting for the test and you should be really happy! You also got a pretty darn good GPA. Depending on what "bigger state schools" you want, this cycle could end very well for you.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:02 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Unless you're a URM (and probably even if you are), your chances are 0 at any of the T14 and 0 for getting money from any flagship state schools. If that's your goal, retake.


Don't listen to them, apply! If you aren't satisfied with your outcomes(and I mostly am with lower numbers than you) than by all means retake(or if you are dead set on a particular school in the T-14 or T20-25 with money cause yeah that doesn't look likely). You could certainly get admitted to T1 schools with scholly money if you apply! It is also possible for you to get into Georgetown (look at their 509's) but money is unlikely(if you want the T-14 and think you can do better on the LSAT you really should retake). Remember though, many of the people on this site(while very informative and knowledgeable) are skewed towards pessimism for some reason(people with great scores like 165, 167 and 169 have been advised to retake) so remember if you retake and get an even better score they will still be telling you (largely) the same thing. You are far from "screwed" for this admission cycle! Also be proud of your 160 LSAT, I know it might not seem that way reading some of these threads but you did better than 4 out of 5 people sitting for the test and you should be really happy! You also got a pretty darn good GPA. Depending on what "bigger state schools" you want, this cycle could end very well for you.


Name a single T1 school that will take the OP with money based on their numbers.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:04 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Unless you're a URM (and probably even if you are), your chances are 0 at any of the T14 and 0 for getting money from any flagship state schools. If that's your goal, retake.


Don't listen to them, apply! If you aren't satisfied with your outcomes(and I mostly am with lower numbers than you) than by all means retake(or if you are dead set on a particular school in the T-14 or T20-25 with money cause yeah that doesn't look likely). You could certainly get admitted to T1 schools with scholly money if you apply! It is also possible for you to get into Georgetown (look at their 509's) but money is unlikely(if you want the T-14 and think you can do better on the LSAT you really should retake). Remember though, many of the people on this site(while very informative and knowledgeable) are skewed towards pessimism for some reason(people with great scores like 165, 167 and 169 have been advised to retake) so remember if you retake and get an even better score they will still be telling you (largely) the same thing. You are far from "screwed" for this admission cycle! Also be proud of your 160 LSAT, I know it might not seem that way reading some of these threads but you did better than 4 out of 5 people sitting for the test and you should be really happy! You also got a pretty darn good GPA. Depending on what "bigger state schools" you want, this cycle could end very well for you.


Name a single T1 school that will take the OP with money based on their numbers.


I have considerably worse numbers than OP and I think I might be getting into W+L with $(people predicted that on my chances thread and I'm above their GPA median so it makes sense). Hoping for an acceptance there the next few days hopefully! Lower half of T1 is totally within reach for OP with $(just look at the 509 numbers).

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:52 am

Ferrisjso wrote:I have considerably worse numbers than OP and I think I might be getting into W+L with $(people predicted that on my chances thread and I'm above their GPA median so it makes sense). Hoping for an acceptance there the next few days hopefully! Lower half of T1 is totally within reach for OP with $(just look at the 509 numbers).


The data on MyLSN is pretty scarce for the lower end of T1 schools, but it shows the OP has a chance at getting in at W&L with a very low scholarship (around $20k). Scholarships are always difficult to predict, but being above the GPA median and below the LSAT median is generally not a recipe for high scholarship offers.

But by all means, continue to offer predictions based on what you think you're going to get.
Last edited by cavalier1138 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:09 am

cavalier1138 wrote:[quote="Ferrisjso"
I have considerably worse numbers than OP and I think I might be getting into W+L with $(people predicted that on my chances thread and I'm above their GPA median so it makes sense). Hoping for an acceptance there the next few days hopefully! Lower half of T1 is totally within reach for OP with $(just look at the 509 numbers).


The data on MyLSN is pretty scarce for the lower end of T1 schools, but it shows the OP has a chance at getting in at W&L with a very low scholarship (around $20k). Scholarships are always difficult to predict, but being above the GPA median and below the LSAT median is generally not a recipe for high scholarship offers.

But by all means, continue to offer predictions based on what you think you're going to get.[/quote]

Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply) get in with that money. He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:11 am

Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:15 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.


OP said he was aiming for two particular T14's and " larger state schools". He certainly has a chance at larger state schools, quite a few of which are low T1. I was using W+L as an example. The point is the OP should have some good options with his numbers.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:18 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.


OP said he was aiming for two particular T14's and " larger state schools". He certainly has a chance at larger state schools, quite a few of which are low T1. I was using W+L as an example. The point is the OP should have some good options with his numbers.


The OP asked about money at bigger state schools. They were given an answer regarding their chances for money at bigger state schools. Getting into W&L doesn't mean a lot if you're paying sticker or close to it (unless you're a really big fan of debt).

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:26 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.


OP said he was aiming for two particular T14's and " larger state schools". He certainly has a chance at larger state schools, quite a few of which are low T1. I was using W+L as an example. The point is the OP should have some good options with his numbers.


The OP asked about money at bigger state schools. They were given an answer regarding their chances for money at bigger state schools. Getting into W&L doesn't mean a lot if you're paying sticker or close to it (unless you're a really big fan of debt).


25th percentile money. That's still considerable money.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:52 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.


OP said he was aiming for two particular T14's and " larger state schools". He certainly has a chance at larger state schools, quite a few of which are low T1. I was using W+L as an example. The point is the OP should have some good options with his numbers.


The OP asked about money at bigger state schools. They were given an answer regarding their chances for money at bigger state schools. Getting into W&L doesn't mean a lot if you're paying sticker or close to it (unless you're a really big fan of debt).


25th percentile money. That's still considerable money.


$20,000 is less than half of one year's tuition. So no, it's not. Please stop.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:04 pm

Going to Washington and Lee on anything less than a full ride (let alone a 20K scholarship) AND a strong desire to work a modest job in the market the school is located is likely a recipe for heartache.

The OP likely is kind of screwed with those numbers, absent some very particular career goals and life circumstances. Scoring better than 4/5 people who take the LSAT isn't a great achievement when like 90% of all people who attend law school really shouldn't. The OP is likely going to have to retake to make law school make any sort of sense IMO. Call that pessimism if you want but seriously, if you just want a reassuring pat on the back then go get law school admissions advice from your great aunt.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:10 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.


OP said he was aiming for two particular T14's and " larger state schools". He certainly has a chance at larger state schools, quite a few of which are low T1. I was using W+L as an example. The point is the OP should have some good options with his numbers.


The OP asked about money at bigger state schools. They were given an answer regarding their chances for money at bigger state schools. Getting into W&L doesn't mean a lot if you're paying sticker or close to it (unless you're a really big fan of debt).


25th percentile money. That's still considerable money.


$20,000 is less than half of one year's tuition. So no, it's not. Please stop.


Okay, a couple of things.

1. $20,000 total at W&L is not good at all.

2. Why was W&L even mentioned? I hate to be that guy but OP asked for chances at a "higher-tier school...like GULC and NW or some bigger state school." W&L, a good school but not anywhere close to GULC or NW, is not a state school lol

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:53 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Op's numbers are better than mine. He should have more T1 options than I do. Even I do get rejected at W+L/don't receive 20,000, OP probably will(if he were to apply). He should be able to get into more lower T1's than I can.


Right... and that still doesn't indicate that the OP would receive good money at that school, which was also not where they were aiming. Getting into a school and getting money to attend that school are different things.


A year, not total. Point is OP should be in at "large state schools" with money. To the other guy who says 90% of law students shouldnt be in law school, wow, just wow.

OP said he was aiming for two particular T14's and " larger state schools". He certainly has a chance at larger state schools, quite a few of which are low T1. I was using W+L as an example. The point is the OP should have some good options with his numbers.


The OP asked about money at bigger state schools. They were given an answer regarding their chances for money at bigger state schools. Getting into W&L doesn't mean a lot if you're paying sticker or close to it (unless you're a really big fan of debt).


25th percentile money. That's still considerable money.


$20,000 is less than half of one year's tuition. So no, it's not. Please stop.


Yes it's actually about 17,000 for this year but that's per year, not total. Everything on the 509 is on a yearly basis.
Last edited by Ferrisjso on Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:07 pm

Good to know some think I'm screwed and some don't. I have no interest in W&L. Am more looking at places like Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa in terms of state schools. Also have applications in at BU, Fordham, and GW in addition to the northwestern and GULC apps I mentioned in the first post. Are all these recommendations predicated on me wanting to do big law?

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:19 pm

radon5 wrote:Good to know some think I'm screwed and some don't. I have no interest in W&L. Am more looking at places like Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa in terms of state schools. Also have applications in at BU, Fordham, and GW in addition to the northwestern and GULC apps I mentioned in the first post. Are all these recommendations predicated on me wanting to do big law?


The recommendations are predicated on you saying that your targets are lower T14 and/or bigger state schools with money. And the only person saying that you can achieve that goal with your current numbers is a 0L who thinks that $20k (total, not a year, because there was apparently some confusion over how to read numbers) at Washington & Lee is a good outcome.

You need to retake the LSAT.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Well I'm crushed haha. Here's hoping I can find something good to do with my time for another year before reapplying.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:31 pm

What kind of schools could I get into with those numbers?

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:35 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
radon5 wrote:Good to know some think I'm screwed and some don't. I have no interest in W&L. Am more looking at places like Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa in terms of state schools. Also have applications in at BU, Fordham, and GW in addition to the northwestern and GULC apps I mentioned in the first post. Are all these recommendations predicated on me wanting to do big law?


The recommendations are predicated on you saying that your targets are lower T14 and/or bigger state schools with money. And the only person saying that you can achieve that goal with your current numbers is a 0L who thinks that $20k (total, not a year, because there was apparently some confusion over how to read numbers) at Washington & Lee is a good outcome.

You need to retake the LSAT.


First off clearly I meant 20,000 a year(I do not know why there was a misunderstanding there?) . The info on 509's says "per academic year" so that's pretty clear. I was using W+L as an example of how lower T1's with money are in OP's reach. In terms of the schools OP says he/she is interested in, Illinois in particular is certainly in reach. OP has a median LSAT and an above median GPA which should net them about 30k in scholly money a year(that's the 50th percentile grant and you would be above their 50th percentile) and would make the school's COA quite reasonable. You're also probably looking at a Fordham acceptance with some $. So before you listen to these people and just accept you have no good options look at the 509's yourself. Also you should apply as soon as possible if you're going to. Also you should have no problems getting T2's with even better scholly's! I do agree with Zuck though that you should be focusing on a region or two where you want to practice, rather than just trying to get into the highest ranked school possible(which it seems you might be trying to do, I'm not sure). I was just giving advice based on your first post because I know it's frustrating when people don't stick to the original question. Regardless of whether the other posters think it's a good idea to attend or not, there are "large state schools" you should be admitted into based on the numbers(again, just reading the numbers from the 509's).
Last edited by Ferrisjso on Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:42 pm

T1/T2 is an utterly meaningless distinction. Also, getting a full ride at, say, Iowa is completely useless if your goal is to, say, work at a large firm in Los Angeles

radon5 wrote:What kind of schools could I get into with those numbers?

This is absolutely the wrong way to approach this. It's completely backwards.

What do you want to do with a law degree? And where do you want to do it? Start there.

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Re: 3.67, 160...Chances?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:31 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:First off clearly I meant 20,000 a year(I do not know why there was a misunderstanding there?) .


Just to correct your misunderstanding: I was the one who said that MyLSN showed the OP had a shot at W&L with $20,000 (read the thread again if you're still confused on that point). It was not $20,000 a year, and even $20,000 a year would not be a good offer at W&L.

And once again, there are no bigger state schools (certainly not the schools listed by the OP) that will accept the OP with a sizeable scholarship. That just isn't happening, no matter how much you seem to think that barely scraping the median LSAT is enough to warrant a full ride. No one in this thread has claimed that the OP is not going to get into any of the schools they've listed, just that they will not get money at those schools.

OP: BigZuck is right, focus on what you want to do and where you want to do it rather than just honing in on USNWR rankings.



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