Sending in apps later rather than sooner Forum

[tk421991]

Right now, I have 10 law schools in my list on LSAC's website. Three of them are T14s that I have a serious interest in going to, three of them are regionally important schools that I wouldn't say no to if the T14s reject me and the remainders are ones that I really have no interest in going to but I want to see what they give me for scholarships so I can negotiate with a better footing.

My question is, has anyone on here had good luck with waiting until after fall grades close in order to send an updated transcript into LSAC with the application? Or is earlier always better?

I have a 4.0 and a 152, retaking on the 24th and may re-take in December again if I get my fee waiver approved (sent in all the docs). I'm intending to keep up the 4.0, so another five A's seems like a good thing to show law schools.

[haus]

I would suggest that you take a look at the Spivey thread (it is several former admissions folks who are now working as consultants who are answer questions) as similar topics have come up several times in the four years that this thread has been running. If you do not find a good answer for your question in the thread, they are likely in a better position to give you an answer than almost anyone else.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=197451

[cavalier1138]

I have no idea why you're focusing on the grades. You have a 4.0. The only possible thing that could happen to your GPA if you wait on sending apps in is that it could go down. Otherwise, it stays static.

That LSAT score, however, should be a real cause for concern. If you seriously want to be considered for the T14, don't submit until after your retake. If you don't like your results, then apply next year. But that GPA is a waste when you aren't backing it up with a decent LSAT.

[tk421991]

I have no idea why you're focusing on the grades. You have a 4.0. The only possible thing that could happen to your GPA if you wait on sending apps in is that it could go down. Otherwise, it stays static.

That LSAT score, however, should be a real cause for concern. If you seriously want to be considered for the T14, don't submit until after your retake. If you don't like your results, then apply next year. But that GPA is a waste when you aren't backing it up with a decent LSAT.

Yeah I have no intention on applying anywhere until after I get results back in October.

[RamTitan]

What are you currently practicing at? If it's not above at least a 160, I'd strongly advise canceling this take, and focusing on either busting your ass for December, or waiting to take the test in June. You don't have to go to law school this cycle, and you really don't want to waste that great GPA with a low score.

[vcap180]

What are you currently practicing at? If it's not above at least a 160, I'd strongly advise canceling this take, and focusing on either busting your ass for December, or waiting to take the test in June. You don't have to go to law school this cycle, and you really don't want to waste that great GPA with a low score.

ramtitan is preaching the truth.

[tk421991]

What are you currently practicing at? If it's not above at least a 160, I'd strongly advise canceling this take, and focusing on either busting your ass for December, or waiting to take the test in June. You don't have to go to law school this cycle, and you really don't want to waste that great GPA with a low score.

About 154, 155. I have until the 23rd to cancel, so I could do that. Plus December's LSAT is 12/3 and my college does Finals Week from 12/12 to 12/16 so Finals wouldn't interfere.

What I really need is someone in person to work with. I'm going to talk to my college's tutoring program since I am a tutor myself and the LSAT is basically just another (important) test.

I took my first LSAT in June and it didn't work out so good for me. I basically came home from college and my mind was exhausted from finals week. So it's this week or December.

[Alpal29]

What are you currently practicing at? If it's not above at least a 160, I'd strongly advise canceling this take, and focusing on either busting your ass for December, or waiting to take the test in June. You don't have to go to law school this cycle, and you really don't want to waste that great GPA with a low score.

About 154, 155. I have until the 23rd to cancel, so I could do that. Plus December's LSAT is 12/3 and my college does Finals Week from 12/12 to 12/16 so Finals wouldn't interfere.

What I really need is someone in person to work with. I'm going to talk to my college's tutoring program since I am a tutor myself and the LSAT is basically just another (important) test.

I took my first LSAT in June and it didn't work out so good for me. I basically came home from college and my mind was exhausted from finals week. So it's this week or December.

You need to sit out a cycle. With that LSAT it's a waste of your GPA. Take some time off, work a bit and study for the LSAT when you're not worrying about finals. Above a 165 you've got a chance at t14, if you can punch through 170 you're going to get scholarship.

[tk421991]

You need to sit out a cycle. With that LSAT it's a waste of your GPA. Take some time off, work a bit and study for the LSAT when you're not worrying about finals. Above a 165 you've got a chance at t14, if you can punch through 170 you're going to get scholarship.

Absolutely not an option. I won't be disappointed if I don't get into a T14 law school because I have zero interest in working in biglaw.

[RamTitan]

You need to sit out a cycle. With that LSAT it's a waste of your GPA. Take some time off, work a bit and study for the LSAT when you're not worrying about finals. Above a 165 you've got a chance at t14, if you can punch through 170 you're going to get scholarship.

Absolutely not an option. I won't be disappointed if I don't get into a T14 law school because I have zero interest in working in biglaw.

Lol, how is it not an option? Not trying to be condescending, but many college students think this, and find themselves in terrible positions because of this attitude. Plus, a little bit of work experience is good for a variety of reasons including a) life perspective and maturity, b) helps with school admissions, c) maybe you'll find a career that doesn't require swimming in a pool of debt

[cavalier1138]

You need to sit out a cycle. With that LSAT it's a waste of your GPA. Take some time off, work a bit and study for the LSAT when you're not worrying about finals. Above a 165 you've got a chance at t14, if you can punch through 170 you're going to get scholarship.

Absolutely not an option. I won't be disappointed if I don't get into a T14 law school because I have zero interest in working in biglaw.

Yeah, it absolutely is an option.

But now I'm deeply confused. Your OP states that you are applying to 3 T14s you have a serious interest in, 3 regional schools you aren't that interested in, and 4 schools that you don't want to go to at all but you want to use for scholarship leverage. And now you seem to be saying that you don't even really want to go to the T14 schools in the first place.

So now you need to be specific, because this is getting ridiculous. Where, specifically, do you want to go? What do you want to do with your JD? Where do you want to practice?

P.S. Your score right now is not just going to keep you out of the T14...

[tk421991]

Lol, how is it not an option? Not trying to be condescending, but many college students think this, and find themselves in terrible positions because of this attitude. Plus, a little bit of work experience is good for a variety of reasons including a) life perspective and maturity, b) helps with school admissions, c) maybe you'll find a career that doesn't require swimming in a pool of debt

Because it's simply not needed for me to waste a year or more of my life to study for one test. If I can't improve from now until December, I won't improve at all. I've been working on the LSAT since January and I've went from about a 145 to where I am now. At this rate, I would need three years to get a 175.

I've already had more real world experience than I'd like to post about, including working in quite a few jobs that were legal-related. I need a break from the cubicle farm, not to re-immerse myself in it.

[RamTitan]

Lol, how is it not an option? Not trying to be condescending, but many college students think this, and find themselves in terrible positions because of this attitude. Plus, a little bit of work experience is good for a variety of reasons including a) life perspective and maturity, b) helps with school admissions, c) maybe you'll find a career that doesn't require swimming in a pool of debt

Because it's simply not needed for me to waste a year or more of my life to study for one test. If I can't improve from now until December, I won't improve at all. I've been working on the LSAT since January and I've went from about a 145 to where I am now. At this rate, I would need three years to get a 175.

I've already had more real world experience than I'd like to post about, including working in quite a few jobs that were legal-related. I need a break from the cubicle farm, not to re-immerse myself in it.

Alright, whatever man; there are people here with a lot of experience on this topic trying to talk you out of it, but clearly you're going to do what you want. But I will say the following and exit this convo:

1. You don't need a year of studying to break into the 160 range. If you've studied this long and have only improved a few points, you're either using the wrong materials or not studying properly. Sorry to break it to you, but that's the truth.

2. A "wasted year" of studying could make you more money than you ever possibly could by going to a substantially lower-ranked school a year earlier (and save you A LOT of money at this point in your life), not to mention the connections you'll make at a higher-ranked institution. Do some research, do the math, but I know, it's your call to make a bad decision.

3. Every college student says this about life experience, and 99.9% of them are completely misguided and wrong. I don't know you, but I'm willing to bet you're not that .1%. And if you're worried about taking a break from the cubicle farm.....what the hell do you think law school and the life of a lawyer is?

Edit - I'm not trying to say that anything that outside the t14 is a suicide mission (like many people do here on these boards), but to intentionally not position yourself for the best possible outcome because you don't want to "waste a year" is, to be frank, immature.

[tk421991]

Alright, whatever man; there are people here with a lot of experience on this topic trying to talk you out of it, but clearly you're going to do what you want. But I will say the following and exit this convo:

1. You don't need a year of studying to break into the 160 range. If you've studied this long and have only improved a few points, you're either using the wrong materials or not studying properly. Sorry to break it to you, but that's the truth.

2. A "wasted year" of studying could make you more money/connections (and save you more money at this point in your life). Do some research, do the math, but I know, it's your call to make a bad decision.

3. Every college student says this about life experience, and 99.9% of them are completely misguided and wrong. I don't know you, but I'm willing to bet you're not that .1%. And if you're worried about taking a break from the cubicle farm.....what the hell do you think law school and the life of a lawyer is?

I know I'm studying incorrectly, hell, I'm posting here because I'm dreading looking at another LSAT book. I've read the stickies, I've read the books, but nothing makes sense. That's why I want to work with someone at my college - I already sent the email and I'm waiting to hear back. I won't have this opportunity to be able to work with someone for basically no additional cost to me besides tuition.

That opportunity will only exist from now until May, or I'm going to have to pay $2000+ for a private LSAT tutor, which is well beyond my financial means. If I'm on my own, all I'm going to do is fail, miserably, again and failure tends to make me suicidal.

[cavalier1138]

If I'm on my own, all I'm going to do is fail, miserably, again and failure tends to make me suicidal.

If this is not just hyperbole, then I seriously suggest you take advantage of your school's counseling services before those are no longer free for you either.

If it is just hyperbole, then I guarantee that going to a shitty law school and not getting a job when you graduate will constitute a much larger failure than what you're talking about.

And people here can only provide guidance based on what you tell us. There are a couple of specific questions I asked you that could help figure out what a good score range would be for you, and/or whether your goals match up with your school choices. By keeping everything vague, you force everyone to give you advice based on a very limited amount of information.

[tk421991]

If this is not just hyperbole, then I seriously suggest you take advantage of your school's counseling services before those are no longer free for you either.

If it is just hyperbole, then I guarantee that going to a shitty law school and not getting a job when you graduate will constitute a much larger failure than what you're talking about.

And people here can only provide guidance based on what you tell us. There are a couple of specific questions I asked you that could help figure out what a good score range would be for you, and/or whether your goals match up with your school choices. By keeping everything vague, you force everyone to give you advice based on a very limited amount of information.

It's by no means an off-hand remark, I've been down that road at a couple points in my life. I worked it out of my system and I'm doing great with college so it doesn't flare up. I find work, reading and writing to help 100%.

Anyways...

I want to work in Rhode Island. I'm from there, I love it there and I want to work there. Specifically, I want to work with a certain law firm in Providence. I've read about biglaw and I don't think it would be a healthy place for me to be mentally. I've been in situations where the place you work literally owns you for 13 to 16 hours a day. I nearly walked into a pole a few times due to lack of sleep.

The problem is this: 99% of Rhode Island lawyers go to one of three places - Roger Williams, UMass Dartmouth or Suffolk. UMass, formerly SE New England School of Law, isn't even ABA accredited. I'm very familiar with Roger Williams and I used to drive by it for work every day for about 2.5 years. Suffolk, I'm visiting on 9/30.

I would be happy if I can get into BU or UCONN. I've been to both. I'm going to a UCONN event on 11/19 and if they give me a decent offer, I'll sign the dotted line. I'm not going to make more than say... $7500 this year max, so I should qualify for need-based scholarships. I think, I haven't researched enough yet.

T14 for free would be nice but it's not going to be possible for me to pay out of pocket for $50,000+ every year for a legal education. However RI is a bit of a small market, so I honestly don't know if I even want to bother with T14. Does it make financial sense to saddle myself with $50,000 x 3 years + COL if I'm only going to be making $60,000 to $80,000?

[tskela]

If this is not just hyperbole, then I seriously suggest you take advantage of your school's counseling services before those are no longer free for you either.

If it is just hyperbole, then I guarantee that going to a shitty law school and not getting a job when you graduate will constitute a much larger failure than what you're talking about.

And people here can only provide guidance based on what you tell us. There are a couple of specific questions I asked you that could help figure out what a good score range would be for you, and/or whether your goals match up with your school choices. By keeping everything vague, you force everyone to give you advice based on a very limited amount of information.

It's by no means an off-hand remark, I've been down that road at a couple points in my life. I worked it out of my system and I'm doing great with college so it doesn't flare up. I find work, reading and writing to help 100%.

Anyways...

I want to work in Rhode Island. I'm from there, I love it there and I want to work there. Specifically, I want to work with a certain law firm in Providence. I've read about biglaw and I don't think it would be a healthy place for me to be mentally. I've been in situations where the place you work literally owns you for 13 to 16 hours a day. I nearly walked into a pole a few times due to lack of sleep.

The problem is this: 99% of Rhode Island lawyers go to one of three places - Roger Williams, UMass Dartmouth or Suffolk. UMass, formerly SE New England School of Law, isn't even ABA accredited. I'm very familiar with Roger Williams and I used to drive by it for work every day for about 2.5 years. Suffolk, I'm visiting on 9/30.

I would be happy if I can get into BU or UCONN. I've been to both. I'm going to a UCONN event on 11/19 and if they give me a decent offer, I'll sign the dotted line. I'm not going to make more than say... $7500 this year max, so I should qualify for need-based scholarships. I think, I haven't researched enough yet.

T14 for free would be nice but it's not going to be possible for me to pay out of pocket for $50,000+ every year for a legal education. However RI is a bit of a small market, so I honestly don't know if I even want to bother with T14. Does it make financial sense to saddle myself with $50,000 x 3 years + COL if I'm only going to be making $60,000 to $80,000?

You're not gonna get into T14 with the range you're scoring at now, so yeah, I'd say don't bother.

A 170+ with a 4.0, on the other hand, and you wouldn't have to "saddle yourself" with anything.

The LSAT is a 100% learnable test. It would be a major mistake and a HUGE WASTE of the ~4 years of academic success you've achieved so far not to do everything in your power to reach your potential on it. You can start by setting aside the books (since you've apparently read them all) and working your way through all 81 available PTs.

[cavalier1138]

Based on your goals, you seem to be in a pretty unique situation. If you really want to work for a mid-sized Rhode Island firm (and at the tender age of 21-ish, I would strongly caution you against locking yourself in to such a small region for life), then it seems like you know which schools are your goals. There are all kinds of red flags popping up for me, because I have a hard time believing that "99%" of RI lawyers go to some of the worst schools in the country, most of which have an employment rate under 50%. Then again, RI is tiny, so who knows?

However, if you want to go somewhere like BU (and this would be a much better move for you), you need to get a much higher LSAT. And you need to abandon the idea of need-based aid. You won't get need-based aid. Your aid will be based on how badly the school wants you to improve their medians.

[tk421991]

Based on your goals, you seem to be in a pretty unique situation. If you really want to work for a mid-sized Rhode Island firm (and at the tender age of 21-ish, I would strongly caution you against locking yourself in to such a small region for life), then it seems like you know which schools are your goals. There are all kinds of red flags popping up for me, because I have a hard time believing that "99%" of RI lawyers go to some of the worst schools in the country, most of which have an employment rate under 50%. Then again, RI is tiny, so who knows?

However, if you want to go somewhere like BU (and this would be a much better move for you), you need to get a much higher LSAT. And you need to abandon the idea of need-based aid. You won't get need-based aid. Your aid will be based on how badly the school wants you to improve their medians.

To be clear, I don't want to go to those three schools I mentioned and I do want to get my LSAT above 160. BU or UCONN is where I want to be unless I can pull off a 165+. Question is how I'm going to do it and that's for me to work out - like I said, I need a live person to work with and I'll hopefully hear back by Monday or I'm going to need a Plan B.

Most RI lawyers are licensed in RI and Mass or RI and CT in order to get a bigger market, so if I'm working in RI, I'm probably going to also work with clients from Mass and or CT. And I'm 24, I've been around the country - right now I'm in New Hampshire and I used to live in Alabama. It's not like I'm the kind of person who never leaves RI and does URI or RIC to RWU and that's that.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/RI/

According to the above link, the two most common law schools for RI lawyers are Roger Williams and UMass. I've met and worked with prosecutors who went to Suffolk at the RI AG's office. The current RI Speaker of the House went to Suffolk. I've hired a couple lawyers myself for two related situations - one was a guy who specialized in traffic tickets and all I know is that his undergrad was at BC. The other guy does personal injury and went to Western New England School of Law.

RI has about 4,224 lawyers in the state, so the market probably can't handle the 150 or so new graduates of RW and UMass every year - it can't, the market is too small and those two law schools are in competition with the Boston schools. As far as I know, there aren't any biglaw firms in RI with over 1,000 lawyers in an office. That would be Boston.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

[bmathers]

If this is not just hyperbole, then I seriously suggest you take advantage of your school's counseling services before those are no longer free for you either.

If it is just hyperbole, then I guarantee that going to a shitty law school and not getting a job when you graduate will constitute a much larger failure than what you're talking about.

And people here can only provide guidance based on what you tell us. There are a couple of specific questions I asked you that could help figure out what a good score range would be for you, and/or whether your goals match up with your school choices. By keeping everything vague, you force everyone to give you advice based on a very limited amount of information.

It's by no means an off-hand remark, I've been down that road at a couple points in my life. I worked it out of my system and I'm doing great with college so it doesn't flare up. I find work, reading and writing to help 100%.

Anyways...

I want to work in Rhode Island. I'm from there, I love it there and I want to work there. Specifically, I want to work with a certain law firm in Providence. I've read about biglaw and I don't think it would be a healthy place for me to be mentally. I've been in situations where the place you work literally owns you for 13 to 16 hours a day. I nearly walked into a pole a few times due to lack of sleep.

The problem is this: 99% of Rhode Island lawyers go to one of three places - Roger Williams, UMass Dartmouth or Suffolk. UMass, formerly SE New England School of Law, isn't even ABA accredited. I'm very familiar with Roger Williams and I used to drive by it for work every day for about 2.5 years. Suffolk, I'm visiting on 9/30.

I would be happy if I can get into BU or UCONN. I've been to both. I'm going to a UCONN event on 11/19 and if they give me a decent offer, I'll sign the dotted line. I'm not going to make more than say... $7500 this year max, so I should qualify for need-based scholarships. I think, I haven't researched enough yet.

T14 for free would be nice but it's not going to be possible for me to pay out of pocket for $50,000+ every year for a legal education. However RI is a bit of a small market, so I honestly don't know if I even want to bother with T14. Does it make financial sense to saddle myself with $50,000 x 3 years + COL if I'm only going to be making $60,000 to $80,000?

You're a Rhode Islander?! I've been living here in RI for 5 years now (I moved up here shortly after college), it's cool seeing more of "us" on here.

Anyway, as I'm sure you know, RI is an extremely saturated market.. it doesn't seem to be the easiest to break into. Your GPA and LSAT would get you probably into the Honor's program at RWU and a significant scholarship, however, that school is not worth attending even on a significant scholarship. That advice comes from my neighbor/friend who attended RWU on a full-ride, graduated 3 years ago, and can still not get a look in the legal field. Luckily she didn't accumulate debt for her JD, and she loves her profs, but is using her undergrad degree for her job.

If you want to talk anymore about schools up here, shoot me a message. UMass-D, besides having an extremely low employment rate, only gives out a $10k/yr ship -- I wouldn't bother applying there, if I was you.

Suffolk is a HUGE law school and therefore has a large regional alumni base. However, being in downtown Boston, the tuition and COA is going to run you dry if you are worrying about costs. That's a school a 152/4.0 would get you into, but would sey you up with a large debt-load upon graduation.

Uconn median LSAT I think is around a 154. You may be able to get in there, but there OOS sticker-price tuition is insane. Shoot for closer to a 160 and you could probably get a nice deal to go there.

5 points higher on your LSAT will get you a $40k/yr tuition scholarship at Syracuse (sticker tuition, I think, is around $45k).

[tk421991]

You're a Rhode Islander?! I've been living here in RI for 5 years now (I moved up here shortly after college), it's cool seeing more of "us" on here.

Anyway, as I'm sure you know, RI is an extremely saturated market.. it doesn't seem to be the easiest to break into. Your GPA and LSAT would get you probably into the Honor's program at RWU and a significant scholarship, however, that school is not worth attending even on a significant scholarship. That advice comes from my neighbor/friend who attended RWU on a full-ride, graduated 3 years ago, and can still not get a look in the legal field. Luckily she didn't accumulate debt for her JD, and she loves her profs, but is using her undergrad degree for her job.

If you want to talk anymore about schools up here, shoot me a message. UMass-D, besides having an extremely low employment rate, only gives out a $10k/yr ship -- I wouldn't bother applying there, if I was you.

Suffolk is a HUGE law school and therefore has a large regional alumni base. However, being in downtown Boston, the tuition and COA is going to run you dry if you are worrying about costs. That's a school a 152/4.0 would get you into, but would sey you up with a large debt-load upon graduation.

Uconn median LSAT I think is around a 154. You may be able to get in there, but there OOS sticker-price tuition is insane. Shoot for closer to a 160 and you could probably get a nice deal to go there.

5 points higher on your LSAT will get you a $40k/yr tuition scholarship at Syracuse (sticker tuition, I think, is around $45k).

I'll shoot you a PM.

[floatie]

Based on how you've responded to other comments, I doubt you'll listen to me but I'm going to say this anyways:
If you take a year off to study for the LSAT and to work, that won't be a waste of a year. Even if you work somewhere you don't like, you're going to grow in that year in a way that college can never allow you to. Time and time again, you're going to hear people say that their time off after college was one of the best choices they made. There is a reason that law schools like post-baccalaureate work experience and why being a K-JD is seen as a slight disadvantage, and why well over half of the matriculates at a lot of T14s have at least one year of work experience after graduating. It is because those people have had a chance to mature beyond college and know what the working world is like, to some extent. You're going to do whatever you want, obviously, but I would encourage you to actually take the advice of people on here.

[tk421991]

Based on how you've responded to other comments, I doubt you'll listen to me but I'm going to say this anyways:
If you take a year off to study for the LSAT and to work, that won't be a waste of a year. Even if you work somewhere you don't like, you're going to grow in that year in a way that college can never allow you to. Time and time again, you're going to hear people say that their time off after college was one of the best choices they made. There is a reason that law schools like post-baccalaureate work experience and why being a K-JD is seen as a slight disadvantage, and why well over half of the matriculates at a lot of T14s have at least one year of work experience after graduating. It is because those people have had a chance to mature beyond college and know what the working world is like, to some extent. You're going to do whatever you want, obviously, but I would encourage you to actually take the advice of people on here.

The thing is, I am not a K-JD student. I spent three years working full time between high school, community college and where I am now. I was a title searcher, a TV repairman and worked in two factories. I also had a (brief) stint in the Navy - I was a sep, if you know what that is. During community college, where I was majoring in Paralegal Studies, I interned at the RI Attorney General's and got to talk to quite a few people there.

My life once I get away from college is sort of a mess. Being at college gives me the isolation I need to actually get stuff done - I don't drink or smoke. I can use a library for free, I have plenty of available, quiet space to work in and it lets me focus.

I appreciate the advice, don't get me wrong. It's just that I'm not a cookie-cutter case and I don't like explaining my life story a lot - it's pretty screwy and I don't want to be someone who comes across as looking for sympathy. I'm at where I am now by simply pushing through in life.