Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

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UKwannabe_lawyer

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Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby UKwannabe_lawyer » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:26 pm

This September I will enter the final year of my final degree in Politics, Philosophy and Economics at a top-10 UK university (albeit not Oxbridge). For a whole lot of reasons I want to apply to law schools in the US (mainly Ivies), and I was hoping that people here could answer a few questions.
Firstly, does anyone have any idea how US schools convert UK grades into US GPA? I have found several different conversion systems (most of them unfavourable to UK graduates, meh) but there seems to be no one way that law schools use for sure. Any ideas? Or any UK grads who have been through the process?
Secondly, my marks dropped significantly in my second year compared to my first year (went from 70% to 67% -- by UK standards this is still good, I’m told). Long story short, my parents could no longer support me financially though university (I’m an international student), so I worked three part-time jobs during term time, and consequently studied little (to none) for some exams. However, on the diagnostic LSAT I scored a 170 (I had sat similar exams for internships in the UK, so wasn’t completely unfamiliar), so I hope that I can get an impressive score in the real exam after studying during summer. Do you think I still stand a chance? Or would my not-exceptional-but-still-good-and-somewhat-justified grades reduce my chances to 0?
Finally, how much do US law schools care about work experience/awards/ECs? I feel like these would be a particularly strong part of my application (worked for major UK and US firms in London, won a prestigious law competition, and ran a non-profit while at uni). Would these help me any?
Also, do you think it would look bad if emailed my target schools and asked them about their conversion systems for grades? Or would they just give me the ‘no single applicant is the same’ spiel?
Thank you for taking the time to read and respond :)

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby grades?? » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:28 pm

what is your degree? A first, 2:1, or 2:2? Thats what matters.

Edit: I have reread and notice you haven't graduated yet. Upshot- get a first.

A 1st generally is a 3.5-4.0 conversion, 2:1 is a 3.0-3.5 and a 2:2 is <3.0. If you want to go to a strong law school then it is imperative that you make sure you get a first degree.

Also your soft factors- those activities/awards are not strong enough to really help. What is going to matter is your degree and lsat score. I cannot explain to you how important if you want to go to an "ivy", whatever that means, that you need a first.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby UKwannabe_lawyer » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:47 pm

Thanks for the response!
And I figured you'd say as much, I was extremely dissapointed that I dropped to a 2.1 in second year. But just a quick follow-up. Don't US schools differentiate between the grades you get within the first/2.1/2.2 etc. bands? Because while a 65, for example, is considered an ok-2.1, a 69 is basically referred to as a great grade by everyone (including those who grade) though it is still a 2.1. So surely, you can't lump all 2.1 people together?
Also, it's commonly known that it's 'easier' to get a first in certain degrees than others because of the nature of the assessments. E.g. while something like 30% of math students get firsts, only 10% of law undergrads get firsts (because there are no right/wrong answers, just essays, so it really depends on the lecturer). Do they not care about those distinctions either?
I am aiming for a first either way, law school or not, but I am really curious.

(Also, how on earth can a first be anywhere between a 3.5 and a 4.0? If it's basically the highest you can get anyway? A 3.5 to me is something like a low 2.1 O_O Such confusion...)

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby grades?? » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:51 pm

As far as I know, it really only matters if its a 1st, 2:1, or 2:2. Maybe some schools will look at the actual score but many/if not all really don't or they don't care because its not easy translating a 64 to an american GPA. Sorry for the bad news. Just work hard for the 1st. I understand some degrees are harder than others, but for american law schools they could care less if you have a degree in underwater dance if you got a 4.0 gpa versus a maths major with a 3.1. The 4.0 always looks better to them.

So upshot, work hard to get a first. A 2:1 will be harder to get an "Ivy".

Edit: and yes its crazy how a first could be a 3.5-4.0. What it really means is that on the LSAC website, you will be given a "superior" academic record. A 2:1 gets you an "excellent." I believe the 2:2 is a "fair." Usually its 3.5-4.0 that gets a "superior" so that is where the conversion happens.

That is why it is so important for UK students, ESPECIALLY non Oxbridge St Andrews people to get a first.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Mullens » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:06 pm

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I am certain this grades?? person also has no idea. Your UK grades will not be translated into a numeric GPA. Your academic record will be given a rating by LSAC that will appear when you apply for law school but is comparatively meaningless to a US GPA. Because of that, your LSAT score is by far the most important part of your application and you will need to score above a given svhool's median for a shot at acceptance.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby UKwannabe_lawyer » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:50 pm

Mullens wrote:I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I am certain this grades?? person also has no idea. Your UK grades will not be translated into a numeric GPA. Your academic record will be given a rating by LSAC that will appear when you apply for law school but is comparatively meaningless to a US GPA. Because of that, your LSAT score is by far the most important part of your application and you will need to score above a given svhool's median for a shot at acceptance.


I think that this LSAC rating is what @grades?? is exactly referring to ;)

And a further question from me, given what the both of you have said. Say that I ended up with an 'bove average' (or whatever lies just below 'superior') ranking -- could I still have a shot at HYS? Like I said, I am confident in my ability to do really well on the LSAT, and I am more than happy to work for it too. Would I still have a reasonable shot at getting in (bearing in mind what reasonable means in the context of these schools) with, say a 178? Or do they only look at 'superior'-classed people?

The reason I'm asking is because I can't wait until after third year to apply (I need to apply in the upcoming application cycle). If I don't get in this cycle, I'll just try to get a UK training contract, but if I were to wait until next year, I would have to take a 'gap-year' and there is nothing useful that I could realistically fill it in with. Could I maybe just apply in Feb, and give them my grades from the first semester of third year (which I am hoping, big time, will be a first)?

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Hand » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:59 pm

1) Harvard has definitely admitted some folks with an above average evaluation
2) You should nonetheless try to make sure you get a first, and subsequently a superior evaluation
3) Surely you can find something to do for a year. It won't merely help with your transcript evaluation, it will also improve your resume, and, perhaps most important, give you a little perspective and maturity

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby grades?? » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:01 pm

Mullens wrote:I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I am certain this grades?? person also has no idea. Your UK grades will not be translated into a numeric GPA. Your academic record will be given a rating by LSAC that will appear when you apply for law school but is comparatively meaningless to a US GPA. Because of that, your LSAT score is by far the most important part of your application and you will need to score above a given svhool's median for a shot at acceptance.


I am certain I know how it works- I went to a UK undergrad and grad school. There is no actual numerical gpa conversion. Its just that a 2:1 for instance is going to be rated "excellent" which GENERALLY translates from a 3.0-3.5 on the LSAC.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Hand » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:03 pm

grades?? wrote:
Mullens wrote:I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I am certain this grades?? person also has no idea. Your UK grades will not be translated into a numeric GPA. Your academic record will be given a rating by LSAC that will appear when you apply for law school but is comparatively meaningless to a US GPA. Because of that, your LSAT score is by far the most important part of your application and you will need to score above a given svhool's median for a shot at acceptance.


I am certain I know how it works- I went to a UK undergrad and grad school. There is no actual numerical gpa conversion. Its just that a 2:1 for instance is going to be rated "excellent" which GENERALLY translates from a 3.0-3.5 on the LSAC.

You don't seem to know how it works since "excellent" is not one of the categories they use

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby grades?? » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:05 pm

Hand wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Mullens wrote:I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I am certain this grades?? person also has no idea. Your UK grades will not be translated into a numeric GPA. Your academic record will be given a rating by LSAC that will appear when you apply for law school but is comparatively meaningless to a US GPA. Because of that, your LSAT score is by far the most important part of your application and you will need to score above a given svhool's median for a shot at acceptance.


I am certain I know how it works- I went to a UK undergrad and grad school. There is no actual numerical gpa conversion. Its just that a 2:1 for instance is going to be rated "excellent" which GENERALLY translates from a 3.0-3.5 on the LSAC.

You don't seem to know how it works since "excellent" is not one of the categories they use


Okay so "above average" or whatever the actual verbiage is. Give me a break.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Hand » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:07 pm

grades?? wrote:
Hand wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Mullens wrote:I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I am certain this grades?? person also has no idea. Your UK grades will not be translated into a numeric GPA. Your academic record will be given a rating by LSAC that will appear when you apply for law school but is comparatively meaningless to a US GPA. Because of that, your LSAT score is by far the most important part of your application and you will need to score above a given svhool's median for a shot at acceptance.


I am certain I know how it works- I went to a UK undergrad and grad school. There is no actual numerical gpa conversion. Its just that a 2:1 for instance is going to be rated "excellent" which GENERALLY translates from a 3.0-3.5 on the LSAC.

You don't seem to know how it works since "excellent" is not one of the categories they use


Okay so "above average" or whatever the actual verbiage is. Give me a break.

NOOOOOO

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby UKwannabe_lawyer » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:34 am

Hand wrote:1) Harvard has definitely admitted some folks with an above average evaluation
2) You should nonetheless try to make sure you get a first, and subsequently a superior evaluation
3) Surely you can find something to do for a year. It won't merely help with your transcript evaluation, it will also improve your resume, and, perhaps most important, give you a little perspective and maturity


Thanks, Hand! Unfortunately, 'finding something to do for a year' isn't as easy as you seem to think. Firstly, because that leaves me with a year when I don't apply for UK training contracts (that would be 2016/17), which is very bad (if I were later on to say that I'm applying late because a UK TC is plan B) and plan A) didn't work out, I might as well not apply at all). Plus, finding something meaningful to do is a problem. No one will hire you for a year (in any serious place, like a bank or a consultancy). Plus, finding a paralegal job in the UK for a year only (at a good firm) is practically impossible too, because in a lot of cases, they expect their paralegals to then stay on and do TCs with them. I can't move to the US either (to do something for that year), because of visa stuff. There are other options too, but none of them that I really like. (Or maybe I'm just to stupid to come up with something, in which case I'm not HYS material anyway :P).
Which isn't to say that I won't be aiming for a first anyway. Might just have to see how my LSAT goes, and if I do super-well, give it a go with whatever grades :( (like I asked before: do they look at your grades from last year, or last semester? Cause that would make one hell of a difference to me.)

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Pikapika » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:19 am

UKwannabe_lawyer wrote:
Hand wrote:1) Harvard has definitely admitted some folks with an above average evaluation
2) You should nonetheless try to make sure you get a first, and subsequently a superior evaluation
3) Surely you can find something to do for a year. It won't merely help with your transcript evaluation, it will also improve your resume, and, perhaps most important, give you a little perspective and maturity


Thanks, Hand! Unfortunately, 'finding something to do for a year' isn't as easy as you seem to think. Firstly, because that leaves me with a year when I don't apply for UK training contracts (that would be 2016/17), which is very bad (if I were later on to say that I'm applying late because a UK TC is plan B) and plan A) didn't work out, I might as well not apply at all). Plus, finding something meaningful to do is a problem. No one will hire you for a year (in any serious place, like a bank or a consultancy). Plus, finding a paralegal job in the UK for a year only (at a good firm) is practically impossible too, because in a lot of cases, they expect their paralegals to then stay on and do TCs with them. I can't move to the US either (to do something for that year), because of visa stuff. There are other options too, but none of them that I really like. (Or maybe I'm just to stupid to come up with something, in which case I'm not HYS material anyway :P).
Which isn't to say that I won't be aiming for a first anyway. Might just have to see how my LSAT goes, and if I do super-well, give it a go with whatever grades :( (like I asked before: do they look at your grades from last year, or last semester? Cause that would make one hell of a difference to me.)


I think you are almost thinking too hard at this point. You don't need to spend your year doing something beyond compelling, or something that would look traditionally remarkable/'prestigious'. Do something unique, something that makes you some money but that is also something you really care about (if you can). For what it's worth, for this past year in between my master's and law school, I moved to a different country, applied for the provisions that allowed me to stay a year, and part-time volunteered for something I REALLY cared about alongside working full-time at a startup. And while it wasn't anything spectacular, it was unique. I did just fine and believe it really added another dimension to my application.

Also, in terms of your grades question, they ultimately will look at all of your grades. The initial evaluation is done while you are still in school at the beginning of your last year (because that is the year you want to apply right?). Don't apply in Feb ... that is waaay too late and it will only hurt you.
So, it will be an evaluation of everything until that fall/winter. However, the schools will ultimately get grade updates because you have to give them your final transcripts.

And I believe the distinctions are superior, above average, average and below average.

Also, is your bachelor's only 3 years?? I ask because LSAC standards sometimes do not count that as a complete B.A. and you would be required to do a one year master's or something along those lines before applying.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby UKwannabe_lawyer » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:38 am

Pikapika wrote:
UKwannabe_lawyer wrote:
Hand wrote:1) Harvard has definitely admitted some folks with an above average evaluation
2) You should nonetheless try to make sure you get a first, and subsequently a superior evaluation
3) Surely you can find something to do for a year. It won't merely help with your transcript evaluation, it will also improve your resume, and, perhaps most important, give you a little perspective and maturity


Thanks, Hand! Unfortunately, 'finding something to do for a year' isn't as easy as you seem to think. Firstly, because that leaves me with a year when I don't apply for UK training contracts (that would be 2016/17), which is very bad (if I were later on to say that I'm applying late because a UK TC is plan B) and plan A) didn't work out, I might as well not apply at all). Plus, finding something meaningful to do is a problem. No one will hire you for a year (in any serious place, like a bank or a consultancy). Plus, finding a paralegal job in the UK for a year only (at a good firm) is practically impossible too, because in a lot of cases, they expect their paralegals to then stay on and do TCs with them. I can't move to the US either (to do something for that year), because of visa stuff. There are other options too, but none of them that I really like. (Or maybe I'm just to stupid to come up with something, in which case I'm not HYS material anyway :P).
Which isn't to say that I won't be aiming for a first anyway. Might just have to see how my LSAT goes, and if I do super-well, give it a go with whatever grades :( (like I asked before: do they look at your grades from last year, or last semester? Cause that would make one hell of a difference to me.)


I think you are almost thinking too hard at this point. You don't need to spend your year doing something beyond compelling, or something that would look traditionally remarkable/'prestigious'. Do something unique, something that makes you some money but that is also something you really care about (if you can). For what it's worth, for this past year in between my master's and law school, I moved to a different country, applied for the provisions that allowed me to stay a year, and part-time volunteered for something I REALLY cared about alongside working full-time at a startup. And while it wasn't anything spectacular, it was unique. I did just fine and believe it really added another dimension to my application.

Also, in terms of your grades question, they ultimately will look at all of your grades. The initial evaluation is done while you are still in school at the beginning of your last year (because that is the year you want to apply right?). Don't apply in Feb ... that is waaay too late and it will only hurt you.
So, it will be an evaluation of everything until that fall/winter. However, the schools will ultimately get grade updates because you have to give them your final transcripts.

And I believe the distinctions are superior, above average, average and below average.

Also, is your bachelor's only 3 years?? I ask because LSAC standards sometimes do not count that as a complete B.A. and you would be required to do a one year master's or something along those lines before applying.


True, what you're saying about doing something unique, but I still don't want to lose a year (or two years, if LS apps didn't work out, and I ended up going for a training contract in the UK). I already took a year out before going to university, and absolutely hated it (despite doing interesting stuff), which is another reason why I am not too keen on that option. ( I know that I sound like a stubborn git, but I feel like going for the gap-year option is a MASSIVE risk, and not one that I can really afford to take.)

And yes, my BA is 3 years, which is the standard degree length in the UK (you only do four years if you go abroad). So it would be really, really weird if LSAC didn't consider it as a proper degree :(

Also, with regards to applying early: does it really make that much of a difference? I read somehwere that it does, especially if you're a borderline candidate, but I didn't think much of it. I am still struggling to choose between the September and December LSATs -- would you then say that sitting the December one would be too late? (There is no guarantee that delaying till December would give me more prep time, because I still have three jobs, uni work, internship applications to fill, and tons of ECs).

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Pikapika » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:40 am

UKwannabe_lawyer wrote:
Pikapika wrote:
UKwannabe_lawyer wrote:
Hand wrote:1) Harvard has definitely admitted some folks with an above average evaluation
2) You should nonetheless try to make sure you get a first, and subsequently a superior evaluation
3) Surely you can find something to do for a year. It won't merely help with your transcript evaluation, it will also improve your resume, and, perhaps most important, give you a little perspective and maturity


Thanks, Hand! Unfortunately, 'finding something to do for a year' isn't as easy as you seem to think. Firstly, because that leaves me with a year when I don't apply for UK training contracts (that would be 2016/17), which is very bad (if I were later on to say that I'm applying late because a UK TC is plan B) and plan A) didn't work out, I might as well not apply at all). Plus, finding something meaningful to do is a problem. No one will hire you for a year (in any serious place, like a bank or a consultancy). Plus, finding a paralegal job in the UK for a year only (at a good firm) is practically impossible too, because in a lot of cases, they expect their paralegals to then stay on and do TCs with them. I can't move to the US either (to do something for that year), because of visa stuff. There are other options too, but none of them that I really like. (Or maybe I'm just to stupid to come up with something, in which case I'm not HYS material anyway :P).
Which isn't to say that I won't be aiming for a first anyway. Might just have to see how my LSAT goes, and if I do super-well, give it a go with whatever grades :( (like I asked before: do they look at your grades from last year, or last semester? Cause that would make one hell of a difference to me.)


I think you are almost thinking too hard at this point. You don't need to spend your year doing something beyond compelling, or something that would look traditionally remarkable/'prestigious'. Do something unique, something that makes you some money but that is also something you really care about (if you can). For what it's worth, for this past year in between my master's and law school, I moved to a different country, applied for the provisions that allowed me to stay a year, and part-time volunteered for something I REALLY cared about alongside working full-time at a startup. And while it wasn't anything spectacular, it was unique. I did just fine and believe it really added another dimension to my application.

Also, in terms of your grades question, they ultimately will look at all of your grades. The initial evaluation is done while you are still in school at the beginning of your last year (because that is the year you want to apply right?). Don't apply in Feb ... that is waaay too late and it will only hurt you.
So, it will be an evaluation of everything until that fall/winter. However, the schools will ultimately get grade updates because you have to give them your final transcripts.

And I believe the distinctions are superior, above average, average and below average.

Also, is your bachelor's only 3 years?? I ask because LSAC standards sometimes do not count that as a complete B.A. and you would be required to do a one year master's or something along those lines before applying.


True, what you're saying about doing something unique, but I still don't want to lose a year (or two years, if LS apps didn't work out, and I ended up going for a training contract in the UK). I already took a year out before going to university, and absolutely hated it (despite doing interesting stuff), which is another reason why I am not too keen on that option. ( I know that I sound like a stubborn git, but I feel like going for the gap-year option is a MASSIVE risk, and not one that I can really afford to take.)

And yes, my BA is 3 years, which is the standard degree length in the UK (you only do four years if you go abroad). So it would be really, really weird if LSAC didn't consider it as a proper degree :(

Also, with regards to applying early: does it really make that much of a difference? I read somehwere that it does, especially if you're a borderline candidate, but I didn't think much of it. I am still struggling to choose between the September and December LSATs -- would you then say that sitting the December one would be too late? (There is no guarantee that delaying till December would give me more prep time, because I still have three jobs, uni work, internship applications to fill, and tons of ECs).


Obviously don't take a gap year if you will be severely unhappy! You know your situation much better than I, so definitely do what is feasible/makes you happy. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

In terms of your 3 yr B.A. - Yes, I know it is the standard length, which is why I asked. Because, really, quite a few people have had issues with this. So you should really call LSAC when you get a chance to ensure it is fine.

Lastly, applying early really REALLY matters (except for Yale). I would take in September and have December as your back up, if you want to improve your score. :)

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Hand » Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:19 am

A 3 year degree from the uk will be considered equivalent to a US bachelors degree, unlike the 3 year degrees from continental Europe.

Also, even no one wants to hire you for a year, you pretend you're gonna stay for longer, and then bail.

Good luck.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby UKwannabe_lawyer » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:40 am

Hand wrote:A 3 year degree from the uk will be considered equivalent to a US bachelors degree, unlike the 3 year degrees from continental Europe.

Also, even no one wants to hire you for a year, you pretend you're gonna stay for longer, and then bail.

Good luck.


Thanks for the clarification.

And generally, yes, but a) it's probably best not to do that with people I might still want to work for in the future, plus b) depending on the job, you sometimes sign off your soul for a specific amount of time (like with a TC) and I don't want to know what happens when you break the deal with the devil ;)

Also, with regards to LSAC. Do schools only see the 'superior' or 'average' or whatever? Or do they see that + transcripts/something else?

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Hand » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:46 am

UKwannabe_lawyer wrote:
Hand wrote:A 3 year degree from the uk will be considered equivalent to a US bachelors degree, unlike the 3 year degrees from continental Europe.

Also, even no one wants to hire you for a year, you pretend you're gonna stay for longer, and then bail.

Good luck.


Thanks for the clarification.

And generally, yes, but a) it's probably best not to do that with people I might still want to work for in the future, plus b) depending on the job, you sometimes sign off your soul for a specific amount of time (like with a TC) and I don't want to know what happens when you break the deal with the devil ;)

Also, with regards to LSAC. Do schools only see the 'superior' or 'average' or whatever? Or do they see that + transcripts/something else?

They'll see the evaluation and the original transcript.

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Re: Applying to US law schools with a UK bachelor's

Postby Ssar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:03 pm

From a nosey fellow UK grad who is currently applying - how did your application go OP and any tips?



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