PSA: Borrowing is GOOD Forum

[Gifted Hands]

0L Post.

nope rising 2L

It's still a 0L post, though.

i get the schtick that you are trying to lower the # of lawyers but be objective man

Please...no...don't expose the cabal. I already voiced support for your massive debt + PAYE idea. Is there anything else I can do to forestall your crusade?

but i'm a betting man, and i'd bet on paye

[A. Nony Mouse]

Can we time-stamp a reminder for OP to edit remarks in three years?

I don't have debt. But i wish i had gone to the best school at sticker. I regret going to a strong regional over sticker at T14 partly bc of the poor advice on this site.

Why? What were/are your goals? How do you know you won't achieve them from your current school if you're just a rising 2L? If they're unrealistic from your current school, why did you pick that school? Or do you now just want that sweet sweet prestige? Are you someone who's done well and now you think you want biglaw and unicorn jobs, or are you someone who hasn't done well enough to get biglaw from your current school and wish you had that biglaw cushion of the T14? What information did you give when you were asking for advice here?

[Danger Zone]

OL, Very curious about what the downside to this is other than the tax bomb at the end? Worst case, the gamble at GeorgeTTTown fails and you end up working at Starbucks, but does it matter since you will be bailed out by taxpayers?

Uh, does working at Starbucks for 20 years actually sound appealing to you? If so, just do that without going to law school.

[Gifted Hands]

Can we time-stamp a reminder for OP to edit remarks in three years?

I don't have debt. But i wish i had gone to the best school at sticker. I regret going to a strong regional over sticker at T14 partly bc of the poor advice on this site.

Why? What were/are your goals? How do you know you won't achieve them from your current school if you're just a rising 2L? If they're unrealistic from your current school, why did you pick that school? Or do you now just want that sweet sweet prestige? Are you someone who's done well and now you think you want biglaw and unicorn jobs, or are you someone who hasn't done well enough to get biglaw from your current school and wish you had that biglaw cushion of the T14? What information did you give when you were asking for advice here?

It's just an odds game- pay more money for a better chance at a good outcome. If you get a bad outcome, paye is your cushion (it removes part of the risk) so the reational thing to do is bet on the better more expensive school bc your downside risk is limited. this is a rational bet.

It's like playing blackjack with 55% odds of winning. youre not guaranteed but its a rational bet. and you would be cowardly not to bet

[Pomeranian]

OL, Very curious about what the downside to this is other than the tax bomb at the end? Worst case, the gamble at GeorgeTTTown fails and you end up working at Starbucks, but does it matter since you will be bailed out by taxpayers?

Uh, does working at Starbucks for 20 years actually sound appealing to you? If so, just do that without going to law school.

Why not take a sticker price gamble at that big law job on the taxpayer's dime?

[Gifted Hands]

OL, Very curious about what the downside to this is other than the tax bomb at the end? Worst case, the gamble at GeorgeTTTown fails and you end up working at Starbucks, but does it matter since you will be bailed out by taxpayers?

Uh, does working at Starbucks for 20 years actually sound appealing to you? If so, just do that without going to law school.

dude its an example, substitute a temp job or doc review or whatever else you want.

hell, also add the jobs that the state UG grads will get. tax preparer is like best case scenario. ppl go to ls bc they have alack of options

[Danger Zone]

"Just fuck up your life for the next 20 years, totally worth it!"

[Gifted Hands]

OL, Very curious about what the downside to this is other than the tax bomb at the end? Worst case, the gamble at GeorgeTTTown fails and you end up working at Starbucks, but does it matter since you will be bailed out by taxpayers?

Uh, does working at Starbucks for 20 years actually sound appealing to you? If so, just do that without going to law school.

Why not take a sticker price gamble at that big law job on the taxpayer's dime?

basically, yea

[Gifted Hands]

"Just fuck up your life for the next 20 years, totally worth it!"

how is 10% of discretionary income fucking your life up?

[Gifted Hands]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

[A. Nony Mouse]

Can we time-stamp a reminder for OP to edit remarks in three years?

I don't have debt. But i wish i had gone to the best school at sticker. I regret going to a strong regional over sticker at T14 partly bc of the poor advice on this site.

Why? What were/are your goals? How do you know you won't achieve them from your current school if you're just a rising 2L? If they're unrealistic from your current school, why did you pick that school? Or do you now just want that sweet sweet prestige? Are you someone who's done well and now you think you want biglaw and unicorn jobs, or are you someone who hasn't done well enough to get biglaw from your current school and wish you had that biglaw cushion of the T14? What information did you give when you were asking for advice here?

It's just an odds game- pay more money for a better chance at a good outcome. If you get a bad outcome, paye is your cushion (it removes part of the risk) so the reational thing to do is bet on the better more expensive school bc your downside risk is limited. this is a rational bet.

It's like playing blackjack with 55% odds of winning. youre not guaranteed but its a rational bet. and you would be cowardly not to bet

You realize you didn't answer any of my questions, right?

[Gifted Hands]

80(12)(20)

19k you would pay over 20 years. say you borrowed 200k, you just profited 180k

I might have done the math wrong, let me know

nony- that would out me

[Danger Zone]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

I'm not talking about the money. The other component is the actual job youll be working.

[Pomeranian]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

Liberal artist majors from college today are going to be making ~30K anyway? Why not take a sticker price gamble (Taxpayer funded) for a chance at 160K salary? You also get to live in the tony Georgetown neighborhood for three years too.

The gamble fails, you go back to your old barista job and stick the 300K bill to the taxpayer...

[Gifted Hands]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

I'm not talking about the money. The other component is the actual job youll be working.

have you done lawyer work? like i said, if the bet fails, yea you gotta find another industry. but this is if you lose

[Gifted Hands]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

I'm not talking about the money. The other component is the actual job youll be working.

have you done lawyer work? like i said, if the bet fails, yea you gotta find another industry. but this is if you lose

and i said it was a rational bet, not a sure thing

[emkay625]

I think for most folks, it's not as if the choice presented is something like Penn at sticker and U. Pitt at full ride. It very often looks something like this:

Berkeley (sticker)
Duke (sticker)
Northwestern 8k/yr
Texas 28k/yr
Vanderbilt 26k/yr
Emory full ride

Assume they've said something like: generic Midwestern ties, don't care where I end up practicing, don't know what I want to do yet.

In other words, for most folks, it's not as if there is 50+ ranking spaces in between the choices presented to the TLS hive. In the scenario presented above, recommending the poster pick Texas/Vanderbilt/Emory seems like pretty good advice. Yeah, Berkeley would give you better options. But 250K better? No. I think the T14 sticker/full ride at low-ranked regional doesn't come up that often. If it does, those people should've applied more broadly. But rec. someone pick a strong regional like Vanderbilt or Texas or USC with substantial $ over Duke/Berkeley/Columbia at sticker? That seems like a perfectly logical rec. to make.

Edited to add: I guess what I'm actually trying to get at is it's not 5% chance of big law with no debt and 70% chance of big law with 250K in debt. It's usually something like 40% chance of big law with very little debt or 60% chance with 250K debt. For most folks, that increase in outcomes is not worth it.

Most of the time, when people on TLS recommend going to a lower-ranked regional on a full ride (let's say ASU, for instance), it's bc the poster has said they aren't all that interested in big law and want to work in the DAs office in Phoenix or something.

[emkay625]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

Liberal artist majors from college today are going to be making ~30K anyway? Why not take a sticker price gamble (Taxpayer funded) for a chance at 160K salary? You also get to live in the tony Georgetown neighborhood for three years too.

The gamble fails, you go back to your old barista job and stick the 300K bill to the taxpayer...

I think a lot of folks are underestimating the impact that 10% of your income can have when you have a job that pays 40-50K. that $450 a month feels huge when you have a middle class income.

[Barack O'Drama]

OP, I get what you are arguing. TLS seems to lack any nuance in most cases. And your argument when taken to its logical end makes it appear crazy. But that's where the nuance is needed. Obviously a 2.7/151 should probably avoid law school.
But let's say an applicant has a 168 (after 3 retakes) and a 3.6 and gets into NYC Law and will graduate with $200,000 in debt. How badly they actually wants to be a lawyer and PAYE should factor into their decision. I think you're correct. (The tax bomb at the end does seem scary, though.) However the idea that if things don't work out you can just worst case scenario it that you'll work somewhere like Starbucks is pretty bleak. And perhaps if you're going to a school with bad chances of practicing as an atty at all then it seems like you're taking TOO big of a risk. I think TLS is a little too risk adverse is some cases, but I don't think that's really a bad thing. The advice on here is usually right, but as I said, it does lack nuance. Its always retake, don't go under ANY circumstances, etc.

I think there's one thing we can all agree on. Just go to coding bootcamp.

[Gifted Hands]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

Liberal artist majors from college today are going to be making ~30K anyway? Why not take a sticker price gamble (Taxpayer funded) for a chance at 160K salary? You also get to live in the tony Georgetown neighborhood for three years too.

The gamble fails, you go back to your old barista job and stick the 300K bill to the taxpayer...

I think a lot of folks are underestimating the impact that 10% of your income can have when you have a job that pays 40-50K. that $450 a month feels huge when you have a middle class income.

you subtract 1700 from your monthly income first

so that person making 4000-1700=2300 230$ per month

[emkay625]

say you make 30k doing doc review. thats 2500 a month. subtract 17k. you are left with 800. You pay 80$ per month. MAN TALK ABOUT A RUINED FUTURE

Liberal artist majors from college today are going to be making ~30K anyway? Why not take a sticker price gamble (Taxpayer funded) for a chance at 160K salary? You also get to live in the tony Georgetown neighborhood for three years too.

The gamble fails, you go back to your old barista job and stick the 300K bill to the taxpayer...

I think a lot of folks are underestimating the impact that 10% of your income can have when you have a job that pays 40-50K. that $450 a month feels huge when you have a middle class income.

you subtract 1700 from your monthly income first

so that person making 4000-1700=2300 230$ per month

That's still a huge amount of money each month for someone who makes only 40K.

[A. Nony Mouse]

80(12)(20)

19k you would pay over 20 years. say you borrowed 200k, you just profited 180k

I might have done the math wrong, let me know

nony- that would out me

I don't want you to out yourself, but you realize we can't accept your "this choice was a mistake" on its face without knowing anything about your goals and outcome from your current school, right?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think for most folks, it's not as if the choice presented is something like Penn at sticker and U. Pitt at full ride. It very often looks something like this:

Berkeley (sticker)
Duke (sticker)
Northwestern 8k/yr
Texas 28k/yr
Vanderbilt 26k/yr
Emory full ride

Assume they've said something like: generic Midwestern ties, don't care where I end up practicing, don't know what I want to do yet.

In other words, for most folks, it's not as if there is 50+ ranking spaces in between the choices presented to the TLS hive. In the scenario presented above, recommending the poster pick Texas/Vanderbilt/Emory seems like pretty good advice. Yeah, Berkeley would give you better options. But 250K better? No. I think the T14 sticker/full ride at low-ranked regional doesn't come up that often. If it does, those people should've applied more broadly. But rec. someone pick a strong regional like Vanderbilt or Texas or USC with substantial $ over Duke/Berkeley/Columbia at sticker? That seems like a perfectly logical rec. to make.

Edited to add: I guess what I'm actually trying to get at is it's not 5% chance of big law with no debt and 70% chance of big law with 250K in debt. It's usually something like 40% chance of big law with very little debt or 60% chance with 250K debt. For most folks, that increase in outcomes is not worth it.

Most of the time, when people on TLS recommend going to a lower-ranked regional on a full ride (let's say ASU, for instance), it's bc the poster has said they aren't all that interested in big law and want to work in the DAs office in Phoenix or something.

This is absolutely why I wanted to know more about the OP, because he seems to be strawmanning quite a bit about the advice he got when applying.

I mean, I agree that TLS is extremely risk-averse (hello, we're lawyers - it's a professional hazard) and debt-averse, and everyone has to determine their own comfort level with debt and employment outcomes. But the advice is also often more nuanced than the OP suggests - at least depending on the info a poster gives and what situation they're in.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Can we time-stamp a reminder for OP to edit remarks in three years?

I don't have debt. But i wish i had gone to the best school at sticker. I regret going to a strong regional over sticker at T14 partly bc of the poor advice on this site.

Hello, I'm probably about 3 years older than you, Gifted Hands. I paid sticker at a T14 rather than taking a scholarship at a different slightly lower ranked T14. I often wish that I had taken the scholarship; I always wish that I had never attended law school in the first place.

I had no regrets as a 2L. Hello regret. The debt impacts my life constantly. Admittedly, my month-to-month lifestyle is not so different--but it does have an effect, not the least of which is that a tax bomb becomes more scary once you accumulate assets and start to consider things like compound interest and retirement. Additionally, I do not make 10% more for being a lawyer (a profession that I do not particularly enjoy).

I am lucky, because I never have and probably never will rely completely on my own income--if I did, I would be living like a pauper still working in NYC just to break a net worth of zero in 5-10 years.

[RZ5646]

Disclaimer: clueless 0L

I think TLS is excessively conservative, but many 0Ls are excessively optimistic, so it all balances out.

That being said, the hive mind could tone it down a bit. We're rapidly approaching "Yale at half scholly or don't go" levels of debt averseness. Also, when advising 0Ls, TLS sometimes neglects non-monetary factors like job satisfaction. For example, it seems like PI paths are often unfairly judged by the biglaw standard of "you'll certainly hate this job, so the only point is to accumulate money as quickly as possible so you can leave." Some people do actually enjoy being a lawyer and don't mind a low income.