Part Time Law Program Questions / Outcomes Forum

[TexasENG]

I wanted to see if any part timers were around and could answer some questions, or if anyone has any solid information on part time programs. I've tried searching through the website but haven't been able to find much definitive information.

1.) What are part time law programs outcomes like? Are they significantly worse than a full time program?
2.) What was your part time experience like?
3.) How many hours a week are you in class / doing out of class work?
4.) Do you still have access to OCI / other hiring resources?
5.) Are there any possibilities for transferring from a part time program to a full time program (if yes, how does this go?)
6.) If you are / were a part time student would you still go part time?
7.) Does a part time programs ranking really matter?
8.) For anyone who has done legal hiring how do you view a part timer vs a full time student?

Any information would be a great help, thanks!

[Becca1979]

One part-timer 4L's personal perspective.

1.) What are part time law programs outcomes like? Are they significantly worse than a full time program?

Depends on the school and the program. I would say where I am, the part-time program outcomes are very similar to the full time program to the extent you can compare it, but I have no actual statistics to back that up, and also its not apples to apples (more on that in a minute). Top 10-20% in both programs + IP degrees have access to Big Law if that's what they want. Plenty of smaller firms and state jobs, etc. Some of these students transfer from part time to full time between year 2 and 3 so they can do a summer associate between the years, so are they a PT or FT for comparison purposes? There are PT'ers who have definitely gone on to big law and federal clerkships, etc., if that's your personal measure of success.

But to some degree, its apples to oranges in terms of outcomes, remember PT'ers already have jobs so: Some PT'ers plan to stay with the company /agency they are already at and just move into a legal role. Some are already patent prosecutors and are just wanting to move into lit. Others have worse outcomes because they didn't have the opportunity to get meaningful legal work experience while part-time because of their day job they couldn't do clinics, internships, etc.

Are you comparing a PT'er with meaningful work experience to a K-JD full timer or a full timer that came to law school with prior meaningful work experience? Is the PT'er working as an engineer during the day (IP firms love that) or are they a barrista at Starbucks? Too many factors to really compare outcomes.

2.) What was your part time experience like?

Different in a lot of ways. Same in others. Kind of like having a secret identity? Remember every part timer is different - some are doing it as they transition from stay at home parenthood, some are doing it because its their only way to afford law school to keep working, some are doing it because they have a really good day job and it makes no sense to give it up or they are already working in the legal field (e.g. paralegal, patent agents, etc.).

3.) How many hours a week are you in class / doing out of class work?

In my program, the first year was 4 nights a week of class for 3 hrs an evening. Summer was 3 nights a week. Faculty is super understanding about work conflicts and commuting issues making you arrive a few minutes late. The school is also starting to experiment with periodic interactive distance learning. You finish your whole first year curriculum between Fall, Spring, Summer except Con Law which you take your first semester of the 2L year. After that you can go at your own pace whenever you want (some of our PT'ers, for child care reasons, actually attend classes during the day). I have opted to try to keep it to 10-12 credit hours a term. People who do that and go summers end up graduating in 3.5 years. I didn't go summers after my first year, and graduate in precisely 4 years.

One thing a PT program gives you is perspective. I only have so much time to devote to law school in a week, it just is what it is. Helps you minimize and clear out the clutter and drama the full time students have and just actually focus on getting the job done.

4.) Do you still have access to OCI / other hiring resources?

Yes. Exactly the same at least for my school. The career services office even had extended evening hours a couple days a week. In some ways, it could arguably be better because you have "two" 2L years, so you get a little bit of a do-over on OCI (e.g. you can do it after you first year at law school and your second year of law school as a "2L", because you stay until a 4th year).

Also, FWIW, all our journals admit part time students using same criteria as full time students, and they have a "stretched" out program for people who stay 4 years.

5.) Are there any possibilities for transferring from a part time program to a full time program (if yes, how does this go?)

Yes, at least where I am. I didn't do it, but it seemed pretty easy to me. I think its most commonly done between 2L and 3L year. I think over half my section transferred to full-time.

6.) If you are / were a part time student would you still go part time?

Absolutely. But I have a great day gig. You have to do an income equation, in your own personal situation -- e.g. how much income will you lose by not working compared to how much income you will make by starting out as a lawyer in 3 years rather than 4 years. Depends on your day gig, depends on if you go big law, government, small law, etc. after. If you don't have a great day gig and do get a big law opportunity, transferring to full time and graduating a year earlier makes a lot more economic sense even if it means giving up your salary for that year.

There are other considerations that keep me PT - Student loans vs pay as you go. Cool things I've gotten to do at my day job over the last 4 years. The option of continuing to do my day job if the whole law thing doesn't work out - the dip your toe in effect is real (though turns out I really loved law school!). On the other hand, you probably won't be able to join moot court (but you could, we have several PT'ers in my program doing mock trial), do a clinic (but you could, options just might be limited), do a judicial internship, take advantage of free FedSoc/ACS lunches, etc. Depends what you want out of law school. Every situation is different though, for instance what law schools did you get into (don't say no to Harvard to go part time at local state U unless you have some sort of exceptional circumstance - but if its local state U with a day job or without a day job, yeah, do it.)

7.) Does a part time programs ranking really matter?

Eh. I don't know. The whole ranking thing always was bunk to me anyway. There aren't many schools with part-time programs. That they are ranked at all is an indication that the Law School you are at has some commitment to maintaining the program - which is an important consideration as a part timer, including evening classes taught by tenured faculty, etc. But really the rank is also a bit of a reflection of the city the school is in. Places like D.C., Houston, NY, San Fran, etc. have lots of professionals that would be interested in a part time program and don't want to move towns for law school. But for the most part, part-time ranking seems to mirror the main ranking, but again, I am by no means an expert.

[totesTheGoat]

I wanted to see if any part timers were around and could answer some questions, or if anyone has any solid information on part time programs. I've tried searching through the website but haven't been able to find much definitive information.

1.) What are part time law programs outcomes like? Are they significantly worse than a full time program?

Depends heavily on what you're doing during the day. If you're gaining valuable work experience, you'll be better off than a K-JD, all else being equal. If you're just working at the local coffee shop, your resume isn't going to be very different than a day student's, and a firm may even question why you're in the evening program (I've never heard of this happening, to be honest).

2.) What was your part time experience like?

Miserable, to be honest. I'll give you a snapshot of my day, and then i'll talk about school itself. I live about 20 miles away from school, and my job is another couple miles in the opposite direction. I leave home between 7:50am and 8:15am each morning. I spend between an hour and 1:45 commuting each morning, depending on where the crashes happen. I park at the train station closest to campus so that I don't have to pay for downtown parking, and I take the train the rest of the way to work. I work until 5:15pm, hop on the train back to campus, and usually get on campus at 5:40pm or so. I spend whatever time I have left briefing the cases for my 6pm class, and then I am in class either to 7:15pm or 9:15pm, depending on the night. I then commute home for 30-40 minutes, eat and go to bed. Sometimes I have work left over from the day, so I may have to get on my work computer and get stuff done until 1am or so. I try to avoid that, because it ruins the rest of the week and the next weekend.

School itself isn't so bad. It's really the logistics that are killer. On average, you're taking 4 classes (It may be 3 or 5 in some circumstances). Usually they start at 6pm and go until around 9pm for 1E and 2E years. As you get to select your own classes, you may be able to work in some day classes, gaps in the schedule, etc. Currently I have a 6pm-7:15pm class on Tues and Thur, and classes from 6pm to 9:15pm on Mon and Wed. I have extracurricular responsibilities a day or two a week.

3.) How many hours a week are you in class / doing out of class work?

Absolute minimum? 10 hours in class plus 1 hour of traffic buffer. That's if you want to be entirely unprepared for class.

Realistic but light? 10 hours in class plus 1 hour of traffic buffer plus 8 hours of out-of-class studying

Realistic but heavy? 11 hours in class plus 1 hour of traffic buffer plus 15 hours of out-of-class studying/office hours

My experience? 10 hours in class plus 1 hour of traffic buffer plus 4 hours out-of-class plus 3 hours of extracurriculars

4.) Do you still have access to OCI / other hiring resources?

Yup, start banking your PTO now, because it's not at night.

5.) Are there any possibilities for transferring from a part time program to a full time program (if yes, how does this go?)

Yep. There are many ways. Some just take some summer classes to catch up, and reclassify after first year. I'm "accelerating," meaning that I took some summer classes and full time hours last semester and will graduate in 3.5 years. Generally, you just have to meet with the dean and sign a waiver in order to be able to take full time hours.

6.) If you are / were a part time student would you still go part time?

Depends. I've been earning money and gaining experience in my area of law. As a result, I have job opportunities open to me that my full time peers aren't being offered. I would do it again, but I would do some things differently. First, I would have done everything to streamline my any my family's life before starting law school. Second, I would be living on or near campus. Third, I would save up tons of PTO. Fourth, I would try to work as few hours as I could get away with. Working 40+ and doing law school is a beating.

I give the advice that you should only do part time if your job is helping your legal resume. If you're doing IP, keep your patent agent job. If you want to do bankruptcy, your job as a manager at GAP isn't really going to be worth going part time.

7.) Does a part time programs ranking really matter?

As in "this is the 6th best part time program?" No, not in the slightest. In the sense that XYZ university is #37 on USNWR and they have a part time program? Yes, in the same way as full time.

[TexasENG]

Thanks for the information! I really appreciate it, there really doesn't seem to be a ton of information out there on Part time programs. I'm heavily considering it because I have a good job currently so my opportunity cost for going full time is pretty significant.

[totesTheGoat]

If the part-time program you're considering is SMU, PM me and I can give you more detailed information about our program.