Regional Bias by ND?

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FredTheFish

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Regional Bias by ND?

Postby FredTheFish » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:03 am

Just wondering if anyone noticed a potential regional bias by ND, and maybe other schools like WUSTL in admissions. In other words, I have a crazy theory that they prefer people who grew up in, or worked several years in areas with large legal markets because odds are these types of people will have ties as compared to a K-JD or someone from a small town, or both.

Here's why: ND specifically prides itself as being a portable degree, and according to LST, they do place graduates in a pretty wide variety of areas, especially considering where they are ranked in US News. But ND MUST place graduates in a pretty wide variety of areas because they don't have a true home legal market. There is one caveat though, a degree from ND is not prestigious enough to gain access into any one legal market on name-brand alone.

So the question is, how does ND place these graduates in so many different markets? Obviously the highest ranked kids in the class will get offers from firms in NYC, Chicago, LA, etc, but what about the rest? This is where I think the regional bias comes into play. I believe ND seeks kids that hail from California, or who already have work experience in Chicago, etc, because they feel these kids probably established ties throughout the years. If they see a K-JD who grew up in small town Pennsylvania who graduated from Penn State, what possible ties could that kid even have? ND needs kids with ties already because if that person does not graduate in the top half of their class, they won't have a job since ND does not have a true home market to place them in.

This obviously helps ND because more graduates get jobs, and this also helps graduates in general because the more kids that get placed in LA or Chicago, the more alumni live in that area for future ND grads to look to; it creates a nice cycle.

Anyways, figured I'd go on a rant because ND waitlisted me and I'm from small town Midwest who went to college in the middle of nowhere as well.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby TirantMartorell » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:35 am

ND didn't waitlist you because you're form a small midwestern town. There are plenty of people at ND from small midwestern towns. Your post sounds like a conspiracy theory and isn't even remotely supported by any facts. Rather, I would argue that an opposite argument could be made. The ND student with the best job prospects isn't the one from California or NY or DC trying to get a job in their home market. Rather, it is the student from a smaller to mid-size market without any top schools in that market and trying to go back to that market. ND students from California probably have the biggest uphill battle in trying to get a job back in California. Cali has too many law schools and not enough jobs.

Regarding the lack of home market dilemma, I would argue that Chicago is a home market. Just about every major firm in Chicago attends ND OCI. The thing is that most ND students do not want to work in Chicago. California is always the most represented state in every class (IL is second) and few Cali people want to give up the warm year round weather and beaches for Chicago. You see a similar problem with ND students from the Northeast or the South. Most people go to ND without any intention of staying in the midwest.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby FredTheFish » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:46 am

TirantMartorell wrote:ND didn't waitlist you because you're form a small midwestern town. There are plenty of people at ND from small midwestern towns. Your post sounds like a conspiracy theory and isn't even remotely supported by any facts. Rather, I would argue that an opposite argument could be made. The ND student with the best job prospects isn't the one from California or NY or DC trying to get a job in their home market. Rather, it is the student from a smaller to mid-size market without any top schools in that market and trying to go back to that market. ND students from California probably have the biggest uphill battle in trying to get a job back in California. Cali has too many law schools and not enough jobs.

Regarding the lack of home market dilemma, I would argue that Chicago is a home market. Just about every major firm in Chicago attends ND OCI. The thing is that most ND students do not want to work in Chicago. California is always the most represented state in every class (IL is second) and few Cali people want to give up the warm year round weather and beaches for Chicago. You see a similar problem with ND students from the Northeast or the South. Most people go to ND without any intention of staying in the midwest.


Believe me, I know that is not why they actually waitlisted me. It could be any number of reasons (although my numbers were right in line to get in). As far as conspiracy theories go, if I knew nothing about law school and you told me that law schools created a bunch of school-funded positions to game their employment stats and also told me that they deny people that have "too good" of numbers just so they could game an arbitrary, bullshit ranking, I would've thought those were conspiracy theories too.

And I disagree on your argument. I feel ND would prefer kids from Cali, NYC, etc because they already have sizable alumni in that area. That way, a graduate below median from LA can go back to his home market and potentially get a job from another ND alumni. If I'm a ND grad working at an LA firm, I'm taking the ND grad who grew up in LA over the ND grad who grew up in the middle of nowhere. It's the same reason why insular markets like Seattle would prefer people who have shown a commitment to the city (i.e. growing up in Seattle). I can't back up mine with facts, and you absolutely did not back yours up with facts either.

And how do you know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago? You also just said "California is always the most represented state in every class" which sounds like it supports my theory that they prefer kids from California...

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sublime

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby sublime » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:55 am

..

FredTheFish

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby FredTheFish » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:29 am

sublime wrote:WUSTL will take (or even buy) anybody if their LSAT is good enough. They may have a small StL preference especially towards below median people though, as St. Louis is pretty insular.


This is kinda my overall point. We've seen it over and over again that school's do everything in their power to keep their position in US News, as well as produce "decent" employment stats. My argument is that kids who are more likely to have pre-existing ties to large legal markets makes them that much more compelling in admissions and with all else being equal, might give them a nice boost. If ND strikes out on landing you a job at OCI, their employment stats hinge on your ability to find a job completely on your own, hence why kids with ties would be preferred over those without them.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby jnwa » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:47 am

FredTheFish wrote:
sublime wrote:WUSTL will take (or even buy) anybody if their LSAT is good enough. They may have a small StL preference especially towards below median people though, as St. Louis is pretty insular.


This is kinda my overall point. We've seen it over and over again that school's do everything in their power to keep their position in US News, as well as produce "decent" employment stats. My argument is that kids who are more likely to have pre-existing ties to large legal markets makes them that much more compelling in admissions and with all else being equal, might give them a nice boost. If ND strikes out on landing you a job at OCI, their employment stats hinge on your ability to find a job completely on your own, hence why kids with ties would be preferred over those without them.


Problem is youre assuming these schools can afford to pass up candidates who meet or exceed their medians because of a lack of ties. They cant. Medians first, other things on the margins. Im sure all schools would love to be filled with students with 5 years finance or engineering work experience plus ties to big markets. Unfortunately for them there arent enough people with those plus good lsat and gpa's thus k-jds still get in. Good numbers, especially lsats are rarer than you think.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby TirantMartorell » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:13 pm

FredTheFish wrote:
TirantMartorell wrote:ND didn't waitlist you because you're form a small midwestern town. There are plenty of people at ND from small midwestern towns. Your post sounds like a conspiracy theory and isn't even remotely supported by any facts. Rather, I would argue that an opposite argument could be made. The ND student with the best job prospects isn't the one from California or NY or DC trying to get a job in their home market. Rather, it is the student from a smaller to mid-size market without any top schools in that market and trying to go back to that market. ND students from California probably have the biggest uphill battle in trying to get a job back in California. Cali has too many law schools and not enough jobs.

Regarding the lack of home market dilemma, I would argue that Chicago is a home market. Just about every major firm in Chicago attends ND OCI. The thing is that most ND students do not want to work in Chicago. California is always the most represented state in every class (IL is second) and few Cali people want to give up the warm year round weather and beaches for Chicago. You see a similar problem with ND students from the Northeast or the South. Most people go to ND without any intention of staying in the midwest.


Believe me, I know that is not why they actually waitlisted me. It could be any number of reasons (although my numbers were right in line to get in). As far as conspiracy theories go, if I knew nothing about law school and you told me that law schools created a bunch of school-funded positions to game their employment stats and also told me that they deny people that have "too good" of numbers just so they could game an arbitrary, bullshit ranking, I would've thought those were conspiracy theories too.

And I disagree on your argument. I feel ND would prefer kids from Cali, NYC, etc because they already have sizable alumni in that area. That way, a graduate below median from LA can go back to his home market and potentially get a job from another ND alumni. If I'm a ND grad working at an LA firm, I'm taking the ND grad who grew up in LA over the ND grad who grew up in the middle of nowhere. It's the same reason why insular markets like Seattle would prefer people who have shown a commitment to the city (i.e. growing up in Seattle). I can't back up mine with facts, and you absolutely did not back yours up with facts either.

And how do you know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago? You also just said "California is always the most represented state in every class" which sounds like it supports my theory that they prefer kids from California...


The "conspiracy theory" you mentioned regarding school funded jobs is actually backed up by facts but your conspiracy theory regarding ND's bias against ppl from small towns is completely baseless and you have failed to provide any evidence, except for the anecdotal evidence of your waitlist.

LOL at the bold. You are the one claiming there is some conspiracy theory. It's your argument to make and therefore you are expected to provide actual facts besides your ridiculous anecdotal evidence. I'm just here to tell you why your conspiracy theory sounds baseless.

I know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago because I am an ND student who isn't from the midwest and has no interest in staying in this part of the country. ND is full of students who could care less about the midwest and are only here to attend Notre Dame. I mean no disrespect to midwesterners, they are very nice people, but the culture here is quite different from the west coast or the northeast. The reason why we have so many ND students from California isn't because there is some conspiracy to admit people from California. If I were in admissions I wouldn't give Cali people any preference given how difficult it is for people to get jobs back in Cali when they have to compete with Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and USC for a limited number of jobs, not to mention the top students at the lower ranked Cali schools. Admissions would have to be dumb to give preference to Cali students since those very students are the ones most likely to graduate unemployed. Cali is the most represented state because Cali is the most populous state in the US, ND has a nationally recognizable name, and many Cali residents who do not get into Stanford, Berkeley, USC, or UCLA think it might be a better option to come to ND, possibly with some scholarship money than to go to a school like Hastings or Santa Clara or Pepperdine. It's a pretty simple cost benefit analysis that induces people from Cali to come to ND, not some conspiracy theory on behalf of admissions.

It sounds like you're just bitter you got waitlisted and are trying to blame someone else for not getting in.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby FredTheFish » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:20 pm

TirantMartorell wrote:
FredTheFish wrote:
TirantMartorell wrote:ND didn't waitlist you because you're form a small midwestern town. There are plenty of people at ND from small midwestern towns. Your post sounds like a conspiracy theory and isn't even remotely supported by any facts. Rather, I would argue that an opposite argument could be made. The ND student with the best job prospects isn't the one from California or NY or DC trying to get a job in their home market. Rather, it is the student from a smaller to mid-size market without any top schools in that market and trying to go back to that market. ND students from California probably have the biggest uphill battle in trying to get a job back in California. Cali has too many law schools and not enough jobs.

Regarding the lack of home market dilemma, I would argue that Chicago is a home market. Just about every major firm in Chicago attends ND OCI. The thing is that most ND students do not want to work in Chicago. California is always the most represented state in every class (IL is second) and few Cali people want to give up the warm year round weather and beaches for Chicago. You see a similar problem with ND students from the Northeast or the South. Most people go to ND without any intention of staying in the midwest.


Believe me, I know that is not why they actually waitlisted me. It could be any number of reasons (although my numbers were right in line to get in). As far as conspiracy theories go, if I knew nothing about law school and you told me that law schools created a bunch of school-funded positions to game their employment stats and also told me that they deny people that have "too good" of numbers just so they could game an arbitrary, bullshit ranking, I would've thought those were conspiracy theories too.

And I disagree on your argument. I feel ND would prefer kids from Cali, NYC, etc because they already have sizable alumni in that area. That way, a graduate below median from LA can go back to his home market and potentially get a job from another ND alumni. If I'm a ND grad working at an LA firm, I'm taking the ND grad who grew up in LA over the ND grad who grew up in the middle of nowhere. It's the same reason why insular markets like Seattle would prefer people who have shown a commitment to the city (i.e. growing up in Seattle). I can't back up mine with facts, and you absolutely did not back yours up with facts either.

And how do you know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago? You also just said "California is always the most represented state in every class" which sounds like it supports my theory that they prefer kids from California...


The "conspiracy theory" you mentioned regarding school funded jobs is actually backed up by facts but your conspiracy theory regarding ND's bias against ppl from small towns is completely baseless and you have failed to provide any evidence, except for the anecdotal evidence of your waitlist.

LOL at the bold. You are the one claiming there is some conspiracy theory. It's your argument to make and therefore you are expected to provide actual facts besides your ridiculous anecdotal evidence. I'm just here to tell you why your conspiracy theory sounds baseless.

I know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago because I am an ND student who isn't from the midwest and has no interest in staying in this part of the country. ND is full of students who could care less about the midwest and are only here to attend Notre Dame. I mean no disrespect to midwesterners, they are very nice people, but the culture here is quite different from the west coast or the northeast. The reason why we have so many ND students from California isn't because there is some conspiracy to admit people from California. If I were in admissions I wouldn't give Cali people any preference given how difficult it is for people to get jobs back in Cali when they have to compete with Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and USC for a limited number of jobs, not to mention the top students at the lower ranked Cali schools. Admissions would have to be dumb to give preference to Cali students since those very students are the ones most likely to graduate unemployed. Cali is the most represented state because Cali is the most populous state in the US, ND has a nationally recognizable name, and many Cali residents who do not get into Stanford, Berkeley, USC, or UCLA think it might be a better option to come to ND, possibly with some scholarship money than to go to a school like Hastings or Santa Clara or Pepperdine. It's a pretty simple cost benefit analysis that induces people from Cali to come to ND, not some conspiracy theory on behalf of admissions.

It sounds like you're just bitter you got waitlisted and are trying to blame someone else for not getting in.


Second time I'll say this; I know this isn't actually why I got waitlisted, just wanted to put on my tinfoil hat and see if anyone else out there thought the same thing. And you're right in that I didn't provide any facts and it's on me to back it up, but you can't provide a counterargument without backing it up with facts either, which you didn't do. I provided an argument without any facts, you provided a counterargument without any facts, we have no idea who's right or wrong because of it.

And if I were in admissions at ND, numbers would be first on my mind, but I absolutely would give preference to kids from California because there are already so many ND grads who live in California as it is. I understand Cali isn't some hotbed of legal market jobs, but nowhere is. You mentioned that finding a job in a small midwestern town is somehow easier than in Cali as a ND grad? Not a chance. If you strike out at OCI, you need to tap into your ties and the alumni network because ND does not have a true home market. You say Chicago is, but it is also one of the most competitive markets in the nation home to 2 schools much better than ND anyways. ND isn't like BC or BU where they can just feed anyone to Boston and the rest of New England. There are a ton of ND grads in Cali so you look there first. It only helps to admit kids from Cali in the first place because of this. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

And don't get me started about the BS that actually is law school admissions. We all know it's a joke.

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TheRealSantaClaus

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby TheRealSantaClaus » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:28 pm

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Last edited by TheRealSantaClaus on Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby fliptrip » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:39 pm

FredTheFish wrote:And don't get me started about the BS that actually is law school admissions. We all know it's a joke.


I, for one, am interested in hearing your thoughts on this one. Why is law school admissions a joke?

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:39 pm

fliptrip wrote:
FredTheFish wrote:And don't get me started about the BS that actually is law school admissions. We all know it's a joke.


I, for one, am interested in hearing your thoughts on this one. Why is law school admissions a joke?

I think this is going to be the "they weight GPA too high and don't consider the RIGOR of your major/school" argument.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby FredTheFish » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:48 pm

fliptrip wrote:
FredTheFish wrote:And don't get me started about the BS that actually is law school admissions. We all know it's a joke.


I, for one, am interested in hearing your thoughts on this one. Why is law school admissions a joke?


Joke might have been a strong word but at the end of the day, they cater to an arbitrary ranking with a very flawed metric. Since they cater to that ranking, they overshadow some factors that I would consider "common sense" for a school to consider when looking at an applicant. For example, not taking into account where a student went to school or what they majored in (or how many majors they did) is nonsense. And while it may not be feasible, an interview should go a long way in admissions for law school, especially since interviews make-or-break you in med school and other graduate programs.

So instead, we are stuck in a system where only two numbers matter, your LSAT and your GPA. People who can afford to take time off or pay for expensive tutors/resources will do better on the LSAT, and people with easier majors at less demanding schools will have a higher GPA, yet neither of these really speaks to your potential as a lawyer. None of this would be that detrimental though if it didn't matter which law school you went to. Unfortunately though, where you go to law school practically determines your entire future, especially in comparison to any other type of graduate program.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby FredTheFish » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:50 pm

TheRealSantaClaus wrote:
I know this isn't actually why I got waitlisted


So then wouldn't your time be better spent working to get off the waitlist of what seems to be your top choice?

It's common knowledge that the top law schools want regionally diverse classes, and frankly I don't blame them. I'm sure U of Chicago wouldn't want 99% of it's student body to be from Illinois. That doesn't mean that they're actively discriminating against applicants from a particular region.

I honestly thought this was a troll thread, but you're putting way too much effort into your responses for me to think that anymore.


It's not my top choice at all and I really just wanted to hear people's opinions on it.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby jchiles » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:04 pm

I think its actually a good idea for law schools to try and admit people they think would end up with jobs.

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Re: Regional Bias by ND?

Postby TirantMartorell » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:41 pm

FredTheFish wrote:
TirantMartorell wrote:
FredTheFish wrote:
TirantMartorell wrote:ND didn't waitlist you because you're form a small midwestern town. There are plenty of people at ND from small midwestern towns. Your post sounds like a conspiracy theory and isn't even remotely supported by any facts. Rather, I would argue that an opposite argument could be made. The ND student with the best job prospects isn't the one from California or NY or DC trying to get a job in their home market. Rather, it is the student from a smaller to mid-size market without any top schools in that market and trying to go back to that market. ND students from California probably have the biggest uphill battle in trying to get a job back in California. Cali has too many law schools and not enough jobs.

Regarding the lack of home market dilemma, I would argue that Chicago is a home market. Just about every major firm in Chicago attends ND OCI. The thing is that most ND students do not want to work in Chicago. California is always the most represented state in every class (IL is second) and few Cali people want to give up the warm year round weather and beaches for Chicago. You see a similar problem with ND students from the Northeast or the South. Most people go to ND without any intention of staying in the midwest.


Believe me, I know that is not why they actually waitlisted me. It could be any number of reasons (although my numbers were right in line to get in). As far as conspiracy theories go, if I knew nothing about law school and you told me that law schools created a bunch of school-funded positions to game their employment stats and also told me that they deny people that have "too good" of numbers just so they could game an arbitrary, bullshit ranking, I would've thought those were conspiracy theories too.

And I disagree on your argument. I feel ND would prefer kids from Cali, NYC, etc because they already have sizable alumni in that area. That way, a graduate below median from LA can go back to his home market and potentially get a job from another ND alumni. If I'm a ND grad working at an LA firm, I'm taking the ND grad who grew up in LA over the ND grad who grew up in the middle of nowhere. It's the same reason why insular markets like Seattle would prefer people who have shown a commitment to the city (i.e. growing up in Seattle). I can't back up mine with facts, and you absolutely did not back yours up with facts either.

And how do you know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago? You also just said "California is always the most represented state in every class" which sounds like it supports my theory that they prefer kids from California...


The "conspiracy theory" you mentioned regarding school funded jobs is actually backed up by facts but your conspiracy theory regarding ND's bias against ppl from small towns is completely baseless and you have failed to provide any evidence, except for the anecdotal evidence of your waitlist.

LOL at the bold. You are the one claiming there is some conspiracy theory. It's your argument to make and therefore you are expected to provide actual facts besides your ridiculous anecdotal evidence. I'm just here to tell you why your conspiracy theory sounds baseless.

I know ND grads don't want to work in Chicago because I am an ND student who isn't from the midwest and has no interest in staying in this part of the country. ND is full of students who could care less about the midwest and are only here to attend Notre Dame. I mean no disrespect to midwesterners, they are very nice people, but the culture here is quite different from the west coast or the northeast. The reason why we have so many ND students from California isn't because there is some conspiracy to admit people from California. If I were in admissions I wouldn't give Cali people any preference given how difficult it is for people to get jobs back in Cali when they have to compete with Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and USC for a limited number of jobs, not to mention the top students at the lower ranked Cali schools. Admissions would have to be dumb to give preference to Cali students since those very students are the ones most likely to graduate unemployed. Cali is the most represented state because Cali is the most populous state in the US, ND has a nationally recognizable name, and many Cali residents who do not get into Stanford, Berkeley, USC, or UCLA think it might be a better option to come to ND, possibly with some scholarship money than to go to a school like Hastings or Santa Clara or Pepperdine. It's a pretty simple cost benefit analysis that induces people from Cali to come to ND, not some conspiracy theory on behalf of admissions.

It sounds like you're just bitter you got waitlisted and are trying to blame someone else for not getting in.


Second time I'll say this; I know this isn't actually why I got waitlisted, just wanted to put on my tinfoil hat and see if anyone else out there thought the same thing. And you're right in that I didn't provide any facts and it's on me to back it up, but you can't provide a counterargument without backing it up with facts either, which you didn't do. I provided an argument without any facts, you provided a counterargument without any facts, we have no idea who's right or wrong because of it.

And if I were in admissions at ND, numbers would be first on my mind, but I absolutely would give preference to kids from California because there are already so many ND grads who live in California as it is. I understand Cali isn't some hotbed of legal market jobs, but nowhere is. You mentioned that finding a job in a small midwestern town is somehow easier than in Cali as a ND grad? Not a chance. If you strike out at OCI, you need to tap into your ties and the alumni network because ND does not have a true home market. You say Chicago is, but it is also one of the most competitive markets in the nation home to 2 schools much better than ND anyways. ND isn't like BC or BU where they can just feed anyone to Boston and the rest of New England. There are a ton of ND grads in Cali so you look there first. It only helps to admit kids from Cali in the first place because of this. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

And don't get me started about the BS that actually is law school admissions. We all know it's a joke.


You seem to know a lot about legal hiring for a 0L. What do you even know about the role of alumni in legal hiring or the way small markets hire in the Midwest. Most of your ideas are based on assumptions about how legal hiring works. This is where your argument and my counterargument differ. I have actually gone through OCI, been a summer associate, and have a job at a big firm in a secondary market lined up, and no I am not on law review nor am I at the very top of my class. I've also been at this university for 3 years to know from personal experience how my classmates have done in the job hunt. What more evidence? Whatever ND's alumni presence is in Cali does not even compare to our presence in the Midwest. Not only Chicago, but most cities in the Midwest (Indy, Milwaukee, Columbus, Cleveland, etc) have plenty of ND alumni, much more than any city in California. The idea that ND would hold a bias against an applicant from small town Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana or Wisconsin is absurd. That applicant would likely be inclined to look for a job in one of the markets I just mentioned where they are plenty of ND alumni. "Ties" does not mean you MUST go back to he 10,000 person town you came from in rural Wisconsin, for example. If you are from a tiny town in Wisconsin any firm in Madison or Milwaukee will clearly think you have enough ties for their market.

As a 0L you should maybe consider the experiences of those who have actually looked and found jobs.



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